Proac Response D1 or D2?

[batonwielder]

Hi Spurs, thanks for sharing with me your insight.

You are right. I will never get to buy anything at this rate, but there's no harm in being cautious with money. If a product is at the end of its cycle, then I would like to get a good chunk of discount on it.

There's also more reason than that which I would like to discuss on a separate thread, but it basically questions the real value of these products.

I've had an experience when I substituted my old Acoustic Energy Evo 3's for the Harbeth's for fun, and they sounded so similar, it was almost disheartening.

Perhaps it's the amplifier that makes the most difference, or any reasonably designed speakers perform well, but I'm quite set on paying exactly for what things are worth. I guess finding the best value among the speakers that suits my sound preference, lifestyle, and space constraints, is what I'm going through at the moment.

 

[poldo]

What kind of placement does ProAc recommend?

For example Harbeth recommend 2 meters apart 3 meter to ears.

Doe anyone know what Proac recommend?

 

[SpursGator]

> Perhaps it's the amplifier that makes the most difference, or any reasonably designed speakers perform well

Both statements are mostly true actually.

Speakers give a system its tonal character more than anything. The reason I am a ProAc fan is not because they are "better" than, say, Bostons, but because they have a very refined quality. ProAc does not try to play tech one-upmanship with the likes of the giants like B&W, rather, they would contend that the tuning of the speaker and its level of refinement is what makes it truly desireable. And if you look at what they are able to charge for simply designed speakers built mostly from readily available third-party drivers, I have to admit they have a point.

Buying an amp is like buying a car. Buying speakers is like buying wine. The Bostons are a good quality local Spanish wine, which you discover on your vacation and end up drinking the whole trip because it's actually really stunningly good. ProAcs are like a Bordeaux grand cru. You know you're overpaying because of international hoopla, the ways that it's better than the other stuff are subtle and hard to justify, and you always have a sneaking suspicion that maybe the differences are all in your head.

But me - I can get excited about both, but every sip of the good stuff fills me with pleasure. Maybe some people think the difference is small, but by God, I can taste the difference, and I happen to think that some of the small nuances in life make the biggest difference. Consider a slice of a good tomato versus a slice of a brilliant tomato. That's all the difference in the world for me.

Nice thing about speakers, you pay up front. It's like having choice: You will only drink one wine for the next 5-20 years or so, but you can pay once and have all you want. You can pay 300 quid and drink a nice local wine every night - which is a bargain! - or you can pay 1,500 and drink unllimited Bordeaux every night.

Neither will feed you, and both will be enjoyable and give you a buzz...but come on.

 

[WishTree]

Perhaps it's the amplifier that makes the most difference, or any reasonably designed speakers perform well, but I'm quite set on paying exactly for what things are worth. I guess finding the best value among the speakers that suits my sound preference, lifestyle, and space constraints, is what I'm going through at the moment.

YES.. Amplfier makes the most difference. I am with you on this bit as I think reasonably designed Speakers perform even better with a better amplifier.

I used to have the Response D2 but then got smitten / allowed to have floorstanders. There is a huge difference in the performance purely because of the volume of the air a floor standing speaker can play with. Tannoy RS DC6T are a 800 pound (way below the price of D2) but not even one single person preferred them to the Tannoy. This argument is only to say how compelling floor standing speakers can be compared to the stand mounts when they essentially take the same floor space (when you consider the stands as part of the deal). Yeah, there is a tiny bit of speed one might get but the large dynamics of a floor standers are too compelling to ignore.

Coming back to Proac, they are the best speakers (in the stand mount range) I heard. It is a safe bet and they work with most of the electronics with out much challenges. The mid range is very sweet but not over done at all. They do better than any thing in a tad above their price range as well! I have not heard the floor standing speakers from Proac yet, so can't comment on them yet.

 

[WishTree]

The reason I am a ProAc fan is not because they are "better" than, say, Bostons, but because they have a very refined quality. ProAc does not try to play tech one-upmanship with the likes of the giants like B&W, rather, they would contend that the tuning of the speaker and its level of refinement is what makes it truly desireable.

+1

Buying an amp is like buying a car. Buying speakers is like buying wine. The Bostons are a good quality local Spanish wine, which you discover on your vacation and end up drinking the whole trip because it's actually really stunningly good. ProAcs are like a Bordeaux grand cru. You know you're overpaying because of international hoopla, the ways that it's better than the other stuff are subtle and hard to justify, and you always have a sneaking suspicion that maybe the differences are all in your head.

+2!!

 

[batonwielder]

Nice one, Spurs. Sounds like you really enjoy your system. I will get to that level soon enough, either through Proac or JMR.

I find it interesting that you count the tuning rather than innovating approach of Proac as a plus, whereas some people would prefer proprietory development.

Wishtree's point about floorstanders got me thinking about the D18. Perhaps it's the extra driver that makes the difference for Wishtree, however. The Studio 140mk2 didn't sound all that great, but I attribute most of that to a bad match with Rega Brio R.

 

[WishTree]

Wishtree's point about floorstanders got me thinking about the D18. Perhaps it's the extra driver that makes the difference for Wishtree, however. The Studio 140mk2 didn't sound all that great, but I attribute most of that to a bad match with Rega Brio R.

That is Bang on! If some one had told me to look for floorstanders, i would have enjoyed great music for the past 2 years as well. As of now, I am a believer that floorstanders offer great scale and layering and there is hardly anything comprimised compared to standmounts. I too think that, 2 1/2 - 3 way speakers, when implemented well, do produce great SQ. However I have not yet heard a 2 way floorstanders (like the spendors or proacs).

Also, when I started the journey long back I went through B&W CM7 as well as CM9 and they are the bad examples I had for floorstanders (because of them I thought floorstander and standmounts make similar sound). That was a good lesson learnt!

Anyways, if you have no objections for floorstanders, give them a try. Especially the D18s. Given the Proac D2s great SQ, I would only assume that D18 would make every pound worth it.

:read: to myself: I really should audition the D18s some time soon !!

 

[WishTree]

, but I attribute most of that to a bad match with Rega Brio R.

My thumbrule for a good amplifier - Power rating should be X Watts in 8ohms and 2X watts in 4 Ohms. That shows how they are desiged. Even better would be 4X in 2 Ohms !!

 

[batonwielder]

, but I attribute most of that to a bad match with Rega Brio R.

My thumbrule for a good amplifier - Power rating should be X Watts in 8ohms and 2X watts in 4 Ohms. That shows how they are desiged. Even better would be 4X in 2 Ohms !!

Only problem with this rule, your choice of amplifiers (at a limited budget at least) whittles down to only a handful.

Love your setup, BTW.

 

[WishTree]

Only problem with this rule, your choice of amplifiers (at a limited budget at least) whittles down to only a handful.

Love your setup, BTW.

Hmmm.. :? .. I presumed that Audiolab and Arcam does that as well.. Some time back I saw Denon PMA-1510AE spec sheet and I thought there are quite a big lot who does that across the entire price spectrum

Thank you! I am still trying to improve on the speakers. I really have to audition the D18s.

 

[batonwielder]

Only problem with this rule, your choice of amplifiers (at a limited budget at least) whittles down to only a handful.

Love your setup, BTW.

Hmmm.. :? .. I presumed that Audiolab and Arcam does that as well.. Some time back I saw Denon PMA-1510AE spec sheet and I thought there are quite a big lot who does that across the entire price spectrum

Thank you! I am still trying to improve on the speakers. I really have to audition the D18s.

What are you trying to improve? This is for both music and movie, right?

 

[WishTree]

What are you trying to improve? This is for both music and movie, right?

There is a very very slight tendency of shoutiness at higher volumes - which I am assuming I can do away by getting the KEF R700 speakers. The system is primarily for music (2.1 set up - actually 2.0 as the subwoofer is connected the preouts of the Integrated amplifier) but it works totally fine even with movies.

 

[batonwielder]

What are you trying to improve? This is for both music and movie, right?

There is a very very slight tendency of shoutiness at higher volumes - which I am assuming I can do away by getting the KEF R700 speakers. The system is primarily for music (2.1 set up - actually 2.0 as the subwoofer is connected the preouts of the Integrated amplifier) but it works totally fine even with movies.

Always room for improvement.

Actually, I read your post about the Proac D2 and Wharfedale speakers questioning the price-performance ratio.

That's how I feel about a lot of this. Probably just says a lot about the level of budget gear these days. There's just so much value products out there!

 

[WishTree]

Always room for improvement.

Actually, I read your post about the Proac D2 and Wharfedale speakers questioning the price-performance ratio.

That's how I feel about a lot of this. Probably just says a lot about the level of budget gear these days. There's just so much value products out there!

Yes There is always a room for.. As long as we know what we want!

Yeah.. The Wharfedale Diamond 9.1 are too birilliant for their price but when you think speakers in terms of wine, the VFM goes out of equation and it is more about the fun

I liked alot the sound of KEF R700 which is a proper three way design and when compared to Proac D18, on paper, is one driver / one way lesser than the KEF. But, as they say in HiFi, it is the whole picture synergy that matters!

 

[DocG]

There is a very very slight tendency of shoutiness at higher volumes - which I am assuming I can do away by getting the KEF R700 speakers. The system is primarily for music (2.1 set up - actually 2.0 as the subwoofer is connected the preouts of the Integrated amplifier) but it works totally fine even with movies.

Hello WishTree,

A little sideway, maybe, but I noticed the PV1 in your signature. Is it always on when listening to music too? Do you consider this combination a valid alternative to a pair of large threeways (or maybe even better than that)? SpursGator also seems to use a sub, I saw in his signature. Could you (plural) comment on the virtues of this set-up?

Cheers

 

[WishTree]

Hello WishTree,

A little sideway, maybe, but I noticed the PV1 in your signature. Is it always on when listening to music too? Do you consider this combination a valid alternative to a pair of large threeways (or maybe even better than that)? SpursGator also seems to use a sub, I saw in his signature. Could you (plural) comment on the virtues of this set-up?

Cheers

Long time back, when I just got into HiFi, I read some where that 'if something is recorded onto the song, then it needs to be reproduced to get the correct intended joy of that song'.

So when it comes to the low frequency, most of the respectable floor standers can not dig as low as +- 3db at 21Hz or +-6 db at 18Hz. That makes a subwoofer must (unlike movie watching where eyes & ears get engaged, music listening can pick up the additional low end weight).

As you might be aware that the biggest thing that works against a three way speaker in comparision to a two way speaker is the transition at the cut off frequency. With a three way there is a possibility of two dips and with two way just one.

When we translate this to a subwoofer which is mounted in a seperate enclosure, driven by a seperate amplifier, completely different most probably too different drivers from the main speakers and with much more plausible standing waves effected by the room acoustics etc etc - many people do not bother to integrate a sub into the music system and happy to invest much more on speakers which can dig few more hz below.

Let this not put off any one but only work as a guide to do the job right and that's where the PV1 comes in. It's pressure vessel construction makes bass very tight (extreme opposite of diffused) and also placement relatively easily. It can take the speaker level input as well which makes it easier for stereo set up (but I do with RCA). If the main speakers have bungs put them in and set the dial on sub 5-10hz more than the cut off frequency of the main speakers (mine is set at 60Hz). The tricky part is setting up the volume on the sub. Though initially I used to bring down the volume decrementally, I have figured out that bringing up the volume is better. Also I got carried away to set the volume on sub so that I can hear the sub but the trick is to set it in such a way that you set the maximum volume where you are unable to hear the sub seperately (I agree, it takes some trial and error).

That is it. Once set up, you listen for a day with the sub on and the same tracks again with sub off and the sub goes never off! (In my case, I turn the sub off after 21.00 just to be nice to my neighbours though they never complained!)

 

[DocG]

Hello WishTree,

A little sideway, maybe, but I noticed the PV1 in your signature. Is it always on when listening to music too? Do you consider this combination a valid alternative to a pair of large threeways (or maybe even better than that)? SpursGator also seems to use a sub, I saw in his signature. Could you (plural) comment on the virtues of this set-up?

Cheers

Long time back, when I just got into HiFi, I read some where that 'if something is recorded onto the song, then it needs to be reproduced to get the correct intended joy of that song'.

So when it comes to the low frequency, most of the respectable floor standers can not dig as low as +- 3db at 21Hz or +-6 db at 18Hz. That makes a subwoofer must (unlike movie watching where eyes & ears get engaged, music listening can pick up the additional low end weight).

As you might be aware that the biggest thing that works against a three way speaker in comparision to a two way speaker is the transition at the cut off frequency. With a three way there is a possibility of two dips and with two way just one.

When we translate this to a subwoofer which is mounted in a seperate enclosure, driven by a seperate amplifier, completely different most probably too different drivers from the main speakers and with much more plausible standing waves effected by the room acoustics etc etc - many people do not bother to integrate a sub into the music system and happy to invest much more on speakers which can dig few more hz below.

Let this not put off any one but only work as a guide to do the job right and that's where the PV1 comes in. It's pressure vessel construction makes bass very tight (extreme opposite of diffused) and also placement relatively easily. It can take the speaker level input as well which makes it easier for stereo set up (but I do with RCA). If the main speakers have bungs put them in and set the dial on sub 5-10hz more than the cut off frequency of the main speakers (mine is set at 60Hz). The tricky part is setting up the volume on the sub. Though initially I used to bring down the volume decrementally, I have figured out that bringing up the volume is better. Also I got carried away to set the volume on sub so that I can hear the sub but the trick is to set it in such a way that you set the maximum volume where you are unable to hear the sub seperately (I agree, it takes some trial and error).

That is it. Once set up, you listen for a day with the sub on and the same tracks again with sub off and the sub goes never off! (In my case, I turn the sub off after 21.00 just to be nice to my neighbours though they never complained!)

Hey WishTree,

Thanks for the thorough answer! That's a lot of interesting info to swallow!

The way you set the volume of a sub is as the Dutch hifi-critic René Van Es describes he does.

Your enthusiasm boosts my confidence that a standmounter-subwoofer set-up is the way to go!

And Batonwielder, sorry for taking advantage of your thread... Won't happen again :silenced:

Erik

 

[WishTree]

Hey WishTree,

Thanks for the thorough answer! That's a lot of interesting info to swallow!

The way you set the volume of a sub is as the Dutch hifi-critic René Van Es describes he does.

Your enthusiasm boosts my confidence that a standmounter-subwoofer set-up is the way to go!

And Batonwielder, sorry for taking advantage of your thread... Won't happen again :silenced:

Erik

I know.. this is unfair.. I am moving this to a new thread

 

[batonwielder]

That's quite alright, guys. I'm actually learning something.

 

[SpursGator]

I just bought the sub - received it last week and am still tuning it - but it looks like it's going to be brilliant. I will post on my sub experience in a separate thread once I have a few weeks to give it a real audition.

In general I hate subwoofers and think you should avoid them. But I have a weird L-shaped room where I sit fairly close to the speakers, but there is a lot of air in the room. I auditioned a pair of D28s but you really need to be 3m or so away from these to get a good image (as the WHF review notes, you need some space for D28s). So D18s and a PV1D with very restrained levels and equalization is what I am trying...and like I said, it's going well.

 

[DocG]

Maybe we could continue the 'sub for hifi' in my thread "I'm going active! (2.1)"?

See you all there?

Cheers

Erik