pmc twenty 21 mixed feelings

[hybridauth_Facebook_664715932]

Seasons greetings

after much consideration i made my mind up to purchased a pair of pmc 21 to replace bw cm5.

so my impressions on them will be more of a comparism between 21 and cm5.

PMC's packaging is very good both the speakers and mathcing stands were well packaged, assembly was straight forward although an extra pair of hand would have made things a lot easier. screw whole alginement on one of the top plate and front pole was slightly out , altough its only a small issue but when you are paying that amount of money you expect everything to be just perfect specially coming from a company like pmc. so i ended up using onle 3 screws instead of 4.

first thing you notice about them is their light weight, they are only about half the weight of cm5. they felt lighter than my wallet felt after i paid for them, if you know what i mean.

21s on their dedicated stands do look but on that particular department cm5 is atleast a few miles ahead of them and it does not help either being constantly remided that "your old speakers looked a lot better" by wife. she even said cm5 = marilyn monroe and 21s = duches of cambridge.

now to real deal and i think i have given 21s fair enough time to base my judgement ..i never knew 2 different pair of hifi speakers can sound so much different from each other. Compare to cm5 they do sound a lot more neutral and accurate, they dig deep into the mix, instruments are a only tad bit better separated but there is quite a big improvements on bass department and i can see why pmc keep banging on about their ATL techology, highs are well rounded and theres no unnecessery sharpness, vocals sound just as good as they need to. however cm5s do produce a lot wider sound stage where as 21s give more like point and shoot sound, thats not to say that their sound staging is bad. cm5's slightly sharp highs and a little exaggerated bass with a bit of coloration. they certainly give you the WOW which, 21s being more neutral, dont give. 21s are not every1s cup of tea, altough i dont regret buying them, for my taste i should have atleast demoed the cm5 s2.

plastic penguin stated in 1 of his post that 21s are overpriced, i couldnt agree more with him at the same i would say their 20 years gaurantee adds a little justification to the price tag also whifi's review about 21s not sounding good at low volume is utter rubbish.

these speakers deserve to be given more time, not for them to get any better but for me to get used to them. is it worth the price difference between them and cm5? as much as i would love to say yes but the honest answer has to be no.

world doesnot have to end with 21s, few years back i couldnt even dream of buying such speakers may be one day i would be in a position to demo bw 805 or kef reference. as they say; never say never.........

thanks for reading

 

[drummerman]

I like the look of the PMC.

Hope you get to like them. I would guess that ultimately neutrality will perhaps win the day but no speaker will please everyone.

Maybe a pair of PM1's if not?

 

[plastic penguin]

I did say they may take some time to get used to them. Also mentioned leaving them on overnight. Some components are 'slow burners', and as such are great for long listening sessions. That doesn't mean, however, they're no good.

Give it more time.

BTW, I don't particularly like the Danish style (lean back).

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_664715932]

I like the look of the PMC.

Hope you get to like them. I would guess that ultimately neutrality will perhaps win the day but no speaker will please everyone.

Maybe a pair of PM1's if not?

I think I will keep the 21s for now, they do have some very good qualities, don't get me wrong, but 1 day I aim to get the 805s. Merry xmas

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_664715932]

I did say they may take some time to get used to them. Also mentioned leaving them on overnight. Some components are 'slow burners', and as such are great for long listening sessions. That doesn't mean, however, they're no good.

Give it more time.

BTW, I don't particularly like the Danish style (lean back).

Merry xmas. They do seem that they will only get better with time.
Merry xmas

 

[Vladimir]

That's weird, they weigh 5kg each. My B&W CM1s are 6.7kg each and have no transmission line walls, the woofer is smaller and the cabinet is not HDF like on the PMC 21s. *scratch_one-s_head*

Congrats on the upgrade btw. Let the 2 months of speaker positioning and fiddling begin. *mosking*

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_664715932]

That's weird, they weigh 5kg each. My B&W CM1s are 6.7kg each and have no transmission line walls, the woofer is smaller and the cabinet is not HDF like on the PMC 21s. *scratch_one-s_head*

Congrats on the upgrade btw. Let the 2 months of speaker positioning and fiddling begin. *mosking*

I think they weigh just under 5kg. Which is indeed a bit weird, listening to some indian/jazz fusion right now and more I listen more I want to listen. I think I need to stop comparing them with cm5. Merry xmas

 

[CnoEvil]

That's weird, they weigh 5kg each. My B&W CM1s are 6.7kg each and have no transmission line walls, the woofer is smaller and the cabinet is not HDF like on the PMC 21s. *scratch_one-s_head*

Congrats on the upgrade btw. Let the 2 months of speaker positioning and fiddling begin. *mosking*

I think they weigh just under 5kg. Which is indeed a bit weird, listening to some indian/jazz fusion right now and more I listen more I want to listen. I think I need to stop comparing them with cm5. Merry xmas

Don't let the Impaler mess with your head. *wink*

 

[Vladimir]

To me the CM5s didn't sound boomy or sharp in the highs when I auditioned them. *unknw* But they were fairly far away from walls and in a low furniture demo room.

Why not compare the PMC and the old B&W? Have fun with it. Plug them back after few weeks and hear the differences. I usually have 2-3 pairs at hand and I revolve them.

 

[Vladimir]

That's weird, they weigh 5kg each. My B&W CM1s are 6.7kg each and have no transmission line walls, the woofer is smaller and the cabinet is not HDF like on the PMC 21s. *scratch_one-s_head*

Congrats on the upgrade btw. Let the 2 months of speaker positioning and fiddling begin. *mosking*

I think they weigh just under 5kg. Which is indeed a bit weird, listening to some indian/jazz fusion right now and more I listen more I want to listen. I think I need to stop comparing them with cm5. Merry xmas

Don't let the Impaler mess with your head. *wink*

I'm actually considering looking for hidden rocks inside my B&Ws. They may have played tricks on me. You know, the recession and all... *lol*

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_664715932]

To me the CM5s didn't sound boomy or sharp in the highs when I auditioned them. *unknw* But they were fairly far away from walls and in a low furniture demo room.

Why not compare the PMC and the old B&W?

I didn't mean boomy, compare to 21s I found their bass slightly exaggerated and hence really low notes didn't come out too well,they also add a tad coloration which puts a little bling and wow in their presentation, if you know what I mean.
I would love to compare them but I have sold my cm5, I still have my old dm601 which I am never going to sell.

 

[plastic penguin]

Think you need to be realistic.

1) If a component has a little colour and that's what you like, then you have to decide whether a little more accuracy from the PMCs is going to be your bag long-term. If it isn't for you don't let anybody give you guilty conscience.

2) As I mentioned before, you need a little time for you to adjust to the different presentation.

3) If your long-term aim is to buy B&W 805, you may have to look at a better amp than the entry-level Creek. I heard them ('S' version) on a Naim XS, and they sounded really impressive -- so they should given their original retail price was £1500 about 8 years ago.

4) Those 21s will benefit from a better amp too. I wouldn't think twice about powering my TB2is with a Leema Tucana.

Meantime, stick with it. In the next few days they'll start to make sense (should do, anyway).

 

[Vladimir]

The B&W 805S sells for arround 1000 euros on the second hand market. Planing on snaging a pair when chance occurs. Brilliant speakers.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_664715932]

Think you need to be realistic.

1) If a component has a little colour and that's what you like, then you have to decide whether a little more accuracy from the PMCs is going to be your bag long-term. If it isn't for you don't let anybody give you guilty conscience.

2) As I mentioned before, you need a little time for you to adjust to the different presentation.

3) If your long-term aim is to buy B&W 805, you may have to look at a better amp than the entry-level Creek. I heard them ('S' version) on a Naim XS, and they sounded really impressive -- so they should given their original retail price was £1500 about 8 years ago.

4) Those 21s will benefit from a better amp too. I wouldn't think twice about powering my TB2is with a Leema Tucana.

Meantime, stick with it. In the next few days they'll start to make sense (should do, anyway).

I know what you mean, only today I had the time to listen to them properly and after a serious session with them I am beginning to think that even if it take few years for me to get to where I would like to in terms of my hifi kit, 21s will give me a lot pleasure in coming months and years.

 

[plastic penguin]

Think you need to be realistic.

1) If a component has a little colour and that's what you like, then you have to decide whether a little more accuracy from the PMCs is going to be your bag long-term. If it isn't for you don't let anybody give you guilty conscience.

2) As I mentioned before, you need a little time for you to adjust to the different presentation.

3) If your long-term aim is to buy B&W 805, you may have to look at a better amp than the entry-level Creek. I heard them ('S' version) on a Naim XS, and they sounded really impressive -- so they should given their original retail price was £1500 about 8 years ago.

4) Those 21s will benefit from a better amp too. I wouldn't think twice about powering my TB2is with a Leema Tucana.

Meantime, stick with it. In the next few days they'll start to make sense (should do, anyway).

I know what you mean, only today I had the time to listen to them properly and after a serious session with them I am beginning to think that even if it take few years for me to get to where I would like to in terms of my hifi kit, 21s will give me a lot pleasure in coming months and years.

Yeah, I'm sure you'll really 'dig' them in a few days.

The best advice I can give you, based on my ow experiences is: Just enjoy the music and the speakers will take care of themselves. Or try not to over-analyse the speakers.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_664715932]

Think you need to be realistic.

1) If a component has a little colour and that's what you like, then you have to decide whether a little more accuracy from the PMCs is going to be your bag long-term. If it isn't for you don't let anybody give you guilty conscience.

2) As I mentioned before, you need a little time for you to adjust to the different presentation.

3) If your long-term aim is to buy B&W 805, you may have to look at a better amp than the entry-level Creek. I heard them ('S' version) on a Naim XS, and they sounded really impressive -- so they should given their original retail price was £1500 about 8 years ago.

4) Those 21s will benefit from a better amp too. I wouldn't think twice about powering my TB2is with a Leema Tucana.

Meantime, stick with it. In the next few days they'll start to make sense (should do, anyway).

I know what you mean, only today I had the time to listen to them properly and after a serious session with them I am beginning to think that even if it take few years for me to get to where I would like to in terms of my hifi kit, 21s will give me a lot pleasure in coming months and years.

Yeah, I'm sure you'll really 'dig' them in a few days.

The best advice I can give you, based on my ow experiences is: Just enjoy the music and the speakers will take care of themselves. Or try not to over-analyse the speakers.

Cheers for that
Sound is already getting better and I suspect after a few more shots of JD they will sound even better. Is it time for midnight mass yet?

 

[Gazzip]

PMC's neutrality can leave you feeling a little disappointed at first. Took me two goes to "get" their sound. First time was back in 2006-ish when I retired a pair of Mission 780SE and replaced them with a pair of TB2+. I didn't gel with the sound at all and went on to spend 6 years in the Kef wilderness. 2012 saw the arrival of some PB1i Signatures on home demo, and I haven't looked back since.

I do however agree with your comments on their QA and build quality. All of the British manufacturers got hit this summer by two of the three cabinet makers in the UK going out of business. As a consequence the work has been picked up by others who are not quite as good at building those pretty little boxes. In short there is a real skills shortage in the industry at the moment but still no excuse for selling sub-standard stuff. My BB5SE's finally arrived very, very late after two pairs had been rejected by PMC's internal QA on arrival back from the cabinet makers! Frustrating! What I will say however is that PMC are aware of these issues and are taking them very, very seriously. In my experience of dealing with them they have always gone the extra mile to keep me happy, so if one of your screw holes is misaligned and you are not happy let them know. Bets are they will refer you back to your dealer and swap them for you.

In the meantime give them a while as you say to get used to them. Once you are tuned in to them they will be nothing short of spectacular.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_664715932]

PMC's neutrality can leave you feeling a little disappointed at first. Took me two goes to "get" their sound. First time was back in 2006-ish when I retired a pair of Mission 780SE and replaced them with a pair of TB2+.

Yes, I think pmc's sound is as such that it takes a bit of getting used to and to add to that a new pair can take 10/15 hours before they begin to sound like hi fi speakers. Having spent a good few hours with them last night: I can see that my impression about them is only going to get better.
Thank you very much and merry xmas

 

[Vladimir]

It is most likely the PMCs are the more colored ones. TL needs a very very large box to work its magic simply due to wave lengths in lower frequencies. Bass reflex would yield better results in smaller boxes or in all boxes if properly implemented. Here is what John Atkinson and Kal Rubinson think on TLs. Basically TL does not achieve the same thing as the B&W Nautilus which completely clears the back cabinet reflexion.

I'm looking at the FR charts of the CM5 that stereophile tested and that is a pretty neutral speaker for domestic hi-fi. However there is something very seducing about the B&Ws, I don't know what it is, I just love the sound.

Anyone can write accuracy in their brochures but the fact remains PMC is colored, B&W is colored, Sonus Faber is colored, every technology has its sound signature and most manufacturers maintain a house sound.

 

[Frank Harvey]

As already mentioned, it will take time to adjust between the different presentation of two speaker brands. Don't keep swapping, just stick with the PMCs and really get to grips with them - in a few weeks time or a few months time, then stick the B&Ws back on, and then see what you think.

 

[MajorFubar]

Bass reflex would yield better results in smaller boxes or in all boxes if properly implemented.

To be fair that's opinion / personal preference, not fact. Having lived with a pair of infinate baffle speakers for a fair few months, I'm now in a position where I'd find it extremely difficult going back to a pair of reflex speakers. You don't realise how coloured the sound is from reflex speakers until someone takes that colouration away by sealing the box.

Clearly there are reflex designs that are worse/better than others, very obviously I'm NOT saying just because I own a pair of sealed speakers I've 'seen the light' and all reflex speakers are therefore rubbish. But equally clearly, it's impossible to absolutely remove the colouration introduced by even the very best reflex designs without sealing the box. Purely in my opinion, obviously.

 

[Vladimir]

Sealed enclosures are my favs too Major. *good* My fav sealed box bookshelf speaker (not standmount, but a proper bookshelf speaker) is the AR6.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_664715932]

As already mentioned, it will take time to adjust between the different presentation of two speaker brands. Don't keep swapping, just stick with the PMCs and really get to grips with them - in a few weeks time or a few months time, then stick the B&Ws back on, and then see what you think.

Hi David, nice to hear your thought.
Thought of giving you a call before I bought them but lintone audio's deal was just too good to consider elsewhere.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_664715932]

I'm looking at the FR charts of the CM5 that stereophile tested and that is a pretty neutral speaker for domestic hi-fi. However there is something very seducing about the B&Ws, I don't know what it is, I just love the sound.?

Couldn't agree more with you, there's indeed something seducing about bw's sound.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_664715932]

I also owned (twice) a pair of B&W cm5 in the past and now own a pair of PMC 20.21 for a few weeks. I bought these after testing the B&W cm5 s2 and Dali Rubicon 2 in my own setup. For me and in my setup, the 20.21 sounds best but i have to admit that i also miss the sound of my old  coloured B&W cm5. So much that i consider buying another pair for comparing with the 20.21 in my own setup.

I think you should also test the Dali Rubicon 2. I think you will like these a lot.

When I bought the cm5, I had demoed quite a few brands, I had a pair of dm601 for years I wanted to get a different brand but having demoed many speakers altough I didn't get the chance to listen to any of the dalis, I stuck to bw and upgraded to cm5 and having upgraded my amp a couple of months I had no intention of changing my speakers untill a some1, having listened to my system offered a good price on them and @ the same time lintone audio had a very good offer on 21s. But I am getting used to 21s sound and more I listen more I want to listen and pretty sure I am not going to be demoing another set of speakers in for a couple of years unless I can find a very very good deal on bw 805d.