Panasonic 24fps customers need to know

[Anonymous]

Thank you Andy for the explanation.

Can you explain a bit more about the set up at the show as I am not familiar with the multiway Gefen HDMI distributor.

How did the source equipment make an EDID handshake with the displays that were connected to the distributor ?

I am genuinely curious as how the protocol is meant to work when a source equipment is connected to multiple screens via a distributor.

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you for going to the trouble of posting that very lengthy and interesting reply Andy.

I decided today that if you guys couldn't see judder on the Panasonic TX37LZD70 then it didn't matter if it was true 24fps or not. Clare in her reply confirmed it with her 'smooth as a babies bottom' quote so I ordered and it is being delivered tomorrow.

Whatever the ins and outs, and rights and wrongs of this thread, I would just like to thank all on the What HiFi team for taking the time and trouble to read and respond to our posts. I am sure it isn't in your job descriptions to do so, so I appreciate that you take time out to help us.

So thank you to Clare, Andrew, and Andy and any others who contribute in their What HiFi capacity to this forum

Best wishes

Waffle

 

[Anonymous]

Hello Susanoo.

The EDID comes from the first display in the loop (ie screen one) with the source. All other screens on the splitter follow that. HDCP, meanwhile, is negotiated with each display individually.

If you're interested, might I suggest you contact Joe Fernand at The Media Factory? Terrific bloke, very knowledgeable. He was recommended to me by Nigel at The Chord Company, plus an old acquaintance on the AV Forums. I've tested other video comparators before, and the Gefen stuff is, from what I've seen, the most transparent available -ÿnot cheap, I'll grant you, but very effective.

All the best,
Andy

 

[Anonymous]

Well... I happen to believe that Andy's reply, as elaborate and serious as it is, only confuses this matter further... As a new user, let me start by telling you all a bit about myself: I am a danish ISF/JKP certified calibrator/installer, and Lumagen distributor in Denmark. I'm quite active on danish forums, and have been discussing this very thing quite a lot lately. I know what true 24 Hz playback looks like, and I know what it looks like when the display gets it wrong. It actually bothers me when I see 24 Hz played back at 60 Hz, I'm used to seeing movies played back at the correct framerate. I believe I'm capable of evaluating whether a setup actually plays back the movies at a true multiple of 24 frames or not.

However, I also believe that there are two sides of this discussion: 1: Does the Panny's do "true 24 Hz" or not, and 2: How big of an issue is it if the display plays back true 24 Hz or not. First things first: I've tested 1080P/24 on various Panasonic displays, including the latest batch of PZ70EA and PZ700, plus the new 37" LCD (whatever the model number is). These models, like the PX70's etc, does accept a 1080P/24 input, but they do _NOT_ display them at a multiple of 24 (48, 72 etc). They do introduce 2-3 judder, and inputting 1080P/24 from a PS3 looks _exactly_ the same as inputting 1080P/60 from the same PS3 - whereas in comparison a Pioneer is noticably less juddery when inputting 1080P/24. Whatever some people may think about the importance of 2-3 judder, the Pannny's do _not_ get rid of 2-3 judder, even though they accept a 24 Hz input. Just because they accept the signal, doesn't mean that they actually display it correctly. I don't agree with Andy that converting 24 Hz to 60 Hz is a demanding task that one shouldn't expect a display to do - on the contrary, framerate conversion is something a lot of cheap displays do, i.e. converting 50 Hz to 60 Hz, avoiding the need of driving the panel with different framerates.

Now, the second part of the issue here: How much does it matter. Well... If you're not used to watching true 24 Hz, to most people it's not an issue. This doesn't mean they won't gain a benefit from getting rid of 2-3 judder, it just means they don't know what they're missing. However, I do believe that compared to whatever issues most flatscreens have with picture quality, this is a rather small issue, and it doesn't change the fact that I believe that the Panny's are the best value outthere, even with 1080P/24 material. I just don't think anyone is helped by trying to hide the fact that they don't to it properly. I'd rather see reviewers say it like it is: They don't do it correctly, whether it's an issue or not is up to the viewer. I'd certainly hate to see anyone buy a lesser quality LCD with true 24 Hz capability, just because I said the Panny's don't to 24 Hz properly.

About the experience with showing a bunch of screens to 1500 people: I've recently done a show displaying an LCD with 60 Hz playback for about 2-300 people. Of these, most said it was the best picture they've ever seen, at least from an LCD. 3 people during the weekend mentioned seeing judder. Once again: I do believe that if I had the possibility of actually demonstrating the difference, I believe at least 90% would say that the difference is noticable (I've done this before), but if you don't tell people what to look for, in the relatively short amount of time at hand, most people would be so impressed by the overall picture quality of these sets, that they wouldn't notice the minor issues.

In my opinion, even though I often stress the importance of 24 Hz capability, I do believe that it's being given way too much attention, compared to the extreme _errors_ in color performance (i.e. color decoding, primaries, grayscale), gamma, black/white levels etc. that almost all displays exhibit. Consumers have much more important issues than 720P vs. 1080P or 24 vs. 60 Hz to worry about - the problem is that they just don't know about these issues, mostly because they are much more difficult to comprehend. If the public showed the same awareness, and the same demand for the manufacturers to do things properly, in the case of displaying proper colors, gamma etc. as they do about resolution and framerate, people would be getting way better picture quality from their sets. Right now, not _one_ set outthere is capable of truly displaying SD and HD colors correctly. Less than a handful is close (i.e. Pioneer and to a lesser extent Panny), and that is only after calibration. All others are way off, to varying degrees. This should be getting _much_ more attention from consumers, because this affects the picture quality of both SD and HD sources a whole lot more than 24 vs 60 Hz, or differences in resolution. In my opinion, a TV set that doesn't display HD with the correct colorspace, correct color decoding and correct white balance, is no more "true HD" than a set that doesn't display the full 1080P resolution. Who ever said resolution or framerate is more important for having "true HD" than color? If HD isn't displayed with accurate color, IT'S NOT HD!

 

[Anonymous]

Amen to that.

 

[Anonymous]

Hello

I have been following the Panasonic 24fps saga closely. I received an email from Panasonic this morning:

"I am looking to purchase the Panasonic Plasma TH-42PZ70, however there has been much confusion about its ability to OUTPUT a true 1080p/ 24fps picture. Does the screen carry out a 3:2 pulldown and convert to 50hz or does it output at a multiple of 24hz i.e. 72hz and carry out a "3:3" pulldown?"

ISSUE RESOLUTION: Dear Mr Cooke,

Thank you for your email enquiry. Firstly, please accept my sincere apologies for the uncharacteristic delay in our response. Due to an unexpected increase in the number of contacts we have recently received, we have been unable to provide as speedy a response as we would normally.

In response, I would explain that the unit carries out a 3:2 pulldown and converts the image to 60Hz for viewing.

We have no confirmed information at this time on new releases. Please keep checking the website for updates.

We trust that the above information will be of assistance to you. However, of course, if you should have any further queries, please do not hesitate to contact us on 0844 844 3852 or email us using the following email address:

customer.care@panasonic.co.uk

Kind regards

Emma Stevens
Customer Support

For me this puts the issue to bed. I can't believe an organisation like WHF cannot get this information. This is the industry you work in. If you don't have contacts in the business, then your credibility is greatly diminished.

 

[Clare Newsome]

[quote user="jonc"]

For me this puts the issue to bed. I can't believe an organisation like WHF cannot get this information. This is the industry you work in. If you don't have contacts in the business, then your credibility is greatly diminished.
[/quote]

Jon, we have the contacts - and they're certainly higher up than a customer support person. Over the years we've had hundreds of case of products about which the brand managers and us testers know inside out, but the customer service staff are still telling a different story.

We've sent the customer service email above to Panasonic's product team and they've promised a response.

None of this - as so many participants in this thread have pointed out - diminishes the fact that the Panas are the most impressive, HD-friendly, 24fps-supporting flatscreens you can buy for real-world money, if you can't stretch to the Product of the Year Pioneer Kuros.

 

[Anonymous]

Ok.

Even if the question seems to be still very controversial I feel we all made huge steps, looking for the "truth".

Let first say how much I appreciated (as everybody, I suppose) Andy and AV Precision posts. Even if they have different ideas on the matters, they are both very useful and rich of interesting explanations.

Then there's the Panasonic "official" reply that's sounds a little bit in the direction of AV ... but Clare seems to have different ideas on it.

I found there are also some points you all share. And that's important for us.

I try to summarize some of them and there are some questiopns about them too. If you want to clearify these (Andy, AV, Clare ... and all the the other)

a) it looks like 24fps or not (true 24fps output, cos' no doubt about ability to handle 24p sources) Panasonic PX/PZ display bluray very well, with jadder (or not) almost "invisible" for common people or that, at least, is not able to compromise a good bluray watrching. Everybody ok ?

b) Andy, in his precise post, talks just about PX. AV talks about both PX and PZ. Panasonic "official" answer concerns a PZ question. So here is an important question: 24fps/no true 24fps ... does this controversial debate concerns EQUALLY both PX and PZ ? I ask this because since some Panasonic websites/ FNAC catalogue put a 24p logo besides just the PZ serie, and reading some previous post, someone (me too) could think that in this doubtful condition PZ serie have some more possibilities to suppoort 24p than PX, and maybe, just for it, buy a more expensive PZ even if not interested in its Full Hd Panel ... just for the 24fps "possibilities"...
What's your point of view ?

c) strictly connected with b) (buy PX or PZ) ... even if not strictly connected with 24p question, but we're also talking about the good watching experince on these plasma sets ... I'd like to know Andy and AV opinons (or anybody else) about what do they think is the better set in watching SD sources (dvd, freeview etc.). IO's a general opinion that hd-ready (since they have to downscale less) reproduce better SD than full hd, but in this case someone says that PZ does a better job. You've seen so many tvs .. so ? better PX, better PZ, the same ?

Thanks to all again.

 

[Anonymous]

I LIKE TURTLE'S!

 

[Anonymous]

Hello again to all.

Well, finally, we've some clarity on the matter. No point beating about the bush: the email from Panasonic's Customer Support team is correct. When displaying 24fps content, Panasonic TVs do so by converting it to a 60Hz signal (ie by converting those 24 frames into 30, using 3:2 pulldown). They do not - to be extra, extra clear - show 24fps at 48Hz or 72Hz.

This is the official answer, and hopefully provides some closure: it was supplied to us (after much emailing) by a very helpful Panasonic Product Manager, Steve Lucas.

So where does that leave us? With a portion of egg on our faces, no doubt. Those of you who read my previous (long!) post on this subject will recall that I said the following:

"Now it's feasible that they're accepting a native 24fps signal and performing a real-time conversion to a supported frame rate, such as 30fps, of course it is. I just consider it incredibly unlikely."

And later on, in reference to the demo-room gallery of flatscreens, I added:

"The alternative possibility is the notion that the Panasonics are all performing a real-time video conversion to a frame rate they can understand."

Now I'll freely admit that I was skeptical about that possibility, as were my colleagues. Still, at least I also said that I was trying to be completely open-minded. Good job too - because it seems that Panasonic has managed to pull off the "incredibly unlikely". The sets we've tested really can deliver real-time frame-rate conversion to a level of quality that I and others had felt beyond them. So now you know. And in case you're wondering why we weren't able to get to the bottom of this earlier, the simple answer is Panasonic itself - specifically, the European arm of the company that we deal with - wasn't convinced its sets could handle 24fps (because as we've long established, support for that content isn't mentioned in the specifications). When we tested the sets, we tried it, and it worked. But according to Steve at Panasonic - who has subsequently confirmed our findings, by the way - that came as a surprise!

Anyway: what practical impact does all this have in the real world? Well, as I and others have commented, it's not reason enough to dismiss these fine TVs. The core point to my mind is that they can accept the native 1080p/24 content from high-definition discs AND deal with it in a way that almost all viewers (and posters) have found to be perfectly acceptable. Those of you who have seen early HD DVD or Blu-ray players attempting to pull off the same feat (and failing dismally) will appreciate just how impressive and significant that is. And - to go back to the point I concluded with in my earlier post - for what it's worth, I can't see judder. And whatever the relative worth of the 1500-strong consumer sample that saw the sets in action at our show, it seems a lot of others feel the same way.

AV Precision - who made an excellent series of points, by the way - commented he'd like to see reviewers "say it like it is: they don't do it correctly, whether it's an issue or not is up to the viewer". Fair enough, and that's how we'll approach things with regard to these Panasonic sets from now on. And Beanncheese added, usefully, that "it looks like (whether they display) true 24fps or not, Panasonic PX/PZ sets display Blu-ray very well, with judder (or not) almost invisible for common people." That, for me at least, is the bit that really counts.

 

[Anonymous]

A good response Andy, thank you!

 

[Anonymous]

Well at least we are getting somewhere,

Still cant understand you cant see any judder, so blindingly obvious, not one of these things you have to put your nose upto the screen to see, just judders like old cine film.

Pioneers are just really smooth, pannies just judder.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Clare Newsome"]None of this - as so many participants in this thread have pointed out - diminishes the fact that the Panas are the most impressive, HD-friendly, 24fps-supporting flatscreens you can buy for real-world money, if you can't stretch to the Product of the Year Pioneer Kuros.

[/quote]

I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that it's confusing and misleading to tell consumers that the panny's are "happy running 24fps, without juddering", when what you in fact mean to say is that it judders, just not to a point that most people find distracting and no more than most other flatscreens do. However you choose to put it, 24 fps material judders on a Panny, when you compare it to the same material on a Pioneer. It doesn't judder _much_ - I've seen setups that does 2-3 pulldown and then converts that 60 Hz signal to 50 Hz, _that's_ judder... There's judder-free, normal judder and unacceptable judder. The Panny's have normal judder.

The key here is that a lot of people, including you, seem to put a lot of weight into the fact that these screens will even accept a 1080P/24 signal, as opposed to some screens that will accept a 1080P/60 signal but not a 1080P/24 signal. But it makes _no_ difference whatsoever if the display accepts 1080P/24 or not, if it converts to 60 internally. A screen that accepts 1080P/60 but not 1080P/24 is (in this specific regard) _exactly_ as good at displaying 1080P/24 signals as a screen that accepts 1080P/24 and converts it to 1080P/60. I can't think of a source that has 1080P/24 output, and no 1080P/60 capability (except when combining the set with i.e. a Lumagen Vision series processor). What I'm saying is: If the set converts to 60 internally, what's the point of feeding it a 1080P/24 signal anyway? With the new Toshiba HD-DVD players with 24 fps support, you'd actually be better off feeding the tv's 1080P/60, because the 24 fps output of the Toshiba's introduce judder to any material that isn't 24 fps native. There's no point in this focus on 1080P/24 input capability in the first place, if it's not about getting rid of 2-3 judder.

However, like I said I still agree that the Panny's are easily the best value at the price for displaying 1080P/24 sources. I just don't agree that we're helping consumers by hiding information from them, just because we believe that this information may hold them off from buying. This only confuses people even more, and if anything hold people off from buying, it's confusion. Spend the time and effort on informing the public about why the Panasonic's are better, _despite_ this minor issue, and they will much better understand why they should want to buy a Panasonic tv, even though it's not perfect in every aspect.

 

[Anonymous]

Just registered to say thanks for that clarification Andy. Very helpful and completely agree about your point that it's still a great TV and fantastic value.

What really surprises me is that Bumtious said the judder is WORSE from a 24fps source than from 1080p/60. (I think it's 60fps, rather than 30, as they couldn't do 1.5 : 1 cadence)

Which is remarkable for 2 reasons. Firstly, creating a 3:2 cadence from a 24p source is pretty simple, you just hold the frame for 1 or 2 extra 60ths. So the PS3, Pioneer Bluray deck & plasmas ought to all be able to do a similarly good job of it. They ought to look pretty much identical.

Secondly, 1500 people couldn't see it. Staggering if it was sat next to a 428 running presumably at 72Hz. Perhaps there just weren't any slow pans or credits which really show it at its worst.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Andy Kerr"]AV Precision - who made an excellent series of points, by the way - commented he'd like to see reviewers "say it like it is: they don't do it correctly, whether it's an issue or not is up to the viewer". Fair enough, and that's how we'll approach things with regard to these Panasonic sets from now on. And Beanncheese added, usefully, that "it looks like (whether they display) true 24fps or not, Panasonic PX/PZ sets display Blu-ray very well, with judder (or not) almost invisible for common people." That, for me at least, is the bit that really counts.[/quote]

I appreciate your reply, and yes by no means do I want you to change your stance about the Panny's being the best value for money, even with 24 fps material. I just firmly believe that correct information always wins in the end. If consumers think that Panny's are great at showing 1080P/24 because they do a superb job of applying 2-3 pulldown (which I strongly believe is not as big a problem for a display as you apparently make it), they won't understand the actual reason why the Panny's are good, _despite_ this lack of true 24 Hz: They display the picture with fairly accurate color, contrast and gamma, with lower negative effects caused by the signal processing than most other tv's (no or very low edge enhancement, fair quality scaling etc.) I strongly believe the readers should not only be told what product is the best for the money, but to no less a degree WHY. This will enable the reader to better evaluate whether the ups and downs of this particular product suits their needs.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="choddo"]

What really surprises me is that Bumtious said the judder is WORSE from a 24fps source than from 1080p/60. (I think it's 60fps, rather than 30, as they couldn't do 1.5 : 1 cadence)[/quote]

I'd like to say that if this is the case, I don't agree. I saw no difference whatsoever from inputting 1080P/24 or 1080P/60 from a PS3.

[quote user="choddo"] Which is remarkable for 2 reasons. Firstly, creating a 3:2 cadence from a 24p source is pretty simple, you just hold the frame for 1 or 2 extra 60ths. So the PS3, Pioneer Bluray deck & plasmas ought to all be able to do a similarly good job of it. They ought to look pretty much identical.[/quote]

Exactly.

 

[Clare Newsome]

[quote user="choddo"]
Perhaps there just weren't any slow pans or credits which really show it at its worst.

[/quote]

To clarify, we showed two full feature films from opening to finishing credits - Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer and Spiderman3. Plenty of all kinds of action/scenes there for everyone to see.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="beanncheese"] a) it looks like 24fps or not (true 24fps output, cos' no doubt about ability to handle 24p sources) Panasonic PX/PZ display bluray very well, with jadder (or not) almost "invisible" for common people or that, at least, is not able to compromise a good bluray watrching. Everybody ok ?[/quote]

Mostly, yes. It's not a problem that's big enough to change the fact that it's a great tv, it's just that some people don't like to know that it could have been even better. However, if you can't live with the fact that your tv is not perfect, you can't buy anything. Pioneer's aren't perfect either - nothing is. The judder is just as good or bad as any other set that introduces 2-3 judder, but nothing else (like I said, some tv's introduce other issues with panning scenes, that will degrade the viewing experience, but it doesn't nescessarily have to do with 2-3 judder)

[quote user="beanncheese"]b) Andy, in his precise post, talks just about PX. AV talks about both PX and PZ. Panasonic "official" answer concerns a PZ question. So here is an important question: 24fps/no true 24fps ... does this controversial debate concerns EQUALLY both PX and PZ ? I ask this because since some Panasonic websites/ FNAC catalogue put a 24p logo besides just the PZ serie, and reading some previous post, someone (me too) could think that in this doubtful condition PZ serie have some more possibilities to suppoort 24p than PX, and maybe, just for it, buy a more expensive PZ even if not interested in its Full Hd Panel ... just for the 24fps "possibilities"...
What's your point of view ?[/quote]

A lot of tv's actually support framerates and resolutions that aren't officially supported. When Panny put a 24P logo on there, they guarantee that the set supports a 24P signal according to relevant standards. So, if you put a perfect 24P signal in, and it doesn't work, Panny has to resolve the issue. If you put a 24P signal into a PX and it doesn't work, Panny don't have to do anything because they never promised you that it would. It doesn't have to mean that they actually changed anything, it just means that now they actually tested it.

[quote user="beanncheese"]c) strictly connected with b) (buy PX or PZ) ... even if not strictly connected with 24p question, but we're also talking about the good watching experince on these plasma sets ... I'd like to know Andy and AV opinons (or anybody else) about what do they think is the better set in watching SD sources (dvd, freeview etc.). IO's a general opinion that hd-ready (since they have to downscale less) reproduce better SD than full hd, but in this case someone says that PZ does a better job. You've seen so many tvs .. so ? better PX, better PZ, the same ?[/quote]

Not related to this debate, so please start a new thread if this causes debate: I believe that any differences in watching SD material isn't directly related to the difference in resolution. There may be issues regarding the anti-glare feature that the PX70 doesn't have, so the relevant comparison should be PX700 vs PZ70/700. The notion that a 768P tv has to scale "less" than a 1080P tv on SD material is simply wrong. It's technically _easier_ to scale to a higher resolution, you'll have less scaling artifacts. Think of it this way: If you have two pixels side by side, one black and one white, and you need to scale it to 3 pixels. You'd then have one black, one grey and one white pixel. The grey pixel is a scaling artifact, and you now don't have as sharp a transition from black to white. Now, try to scale it to 5 pixels instead. You now have two black pixels, one grey and two white. Hence, the grey pixel is now roughly half the size, and you've reduced the scaling artifact making the transistion sharper and more like the original transition. If you see a 1080P tv displaying SD poorly compared to a 768P tv, it's A) because of poor scaling, or B) because other areas of the picture is better on the 768P set. I've compared SD material on Panny and Pioneer 768P vs 1080P setups, and never found SD worse on the 1080P sets when the sets were properly set up. However, I've seen many LCD comparisons where the 768P version was better, because the 1080P had lower contrast or lesser quality signal processing.

 

[Anonymous]

Jeez! Hi Guys and Gals! This is my first ever posting, as i'd made my mind up today that i was going to order a 50"plasma, and was interested in the 24fps info, as i watch a lot of films, and happened upon your forum. 'Confused...You will be"!! Any help would be greatly appreciated, and i'm sorry if i'm slightly off thread, but my options are.. Pana TH50PX70, that my friend at a service centre can get me virtually brand-new (new panel) for £650, or whether to go for (in case i regret it later!) a full HD TH5PZ770 (on the thread issue, does the 770 display 24fps the same as the 70?) for around £1800. I watch a lot of tv via Sky+, and will probably upgrade to Sky+HD. Haven't quite got the cash for the Pioneer, though i'd like one, as would we all! Is it worth spending the extra cash do you think, in order to future-proof? Thanks in advance, Flash.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Clare Newsome"][quote user="choddo"]
Perhaps there just weren't any slow pans or credits which really show it at its worst.

[/quote]

To clarify, we showed two full feature films from opening to finishing credits - Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer and Spiderman3. Plenty of all kinds of action/scenes there for everyone to see.

[/quote]

The readership is relying on your reviews, they need to be in posession of the facts so they can make an informed decision when parting with hard earned cash.

I am finding it hard to understand how you can still insist these sets show a 24fps smoothly. It is now clear from the responses from Panasonic what the sets are doing, and logically those specs will induce judder.

The fact you are saying that 1500 people did not comment is all well and good, but what should be happening is that the 1500 people should be told the what these sets do and then judge, If they are told you may see judder due to the limitations of the sets and don't surely that is the way to go. You must admit that it looks like there appears to be a "cover up". and you guys are now left in a bit of a spot.

Yes agreed, for the money they are great sets, but to leave people still thinking that these sets wiil show a 24fps signal properly is factually incorrect.

Accepting a 24fps signal going in is one thing, but thats not where it ends, what the sets cant do is then take that signal and show that signal as its supposed to be.

Andy has put his hands up, all that the readers want are facts, not ambiguous statements that niether say one thing or the other.

 

[Anonymous]

I have followed this (long) thread with great interest as we have a Panasonic TH-50PX. I am not a 'technician' , however I try and keep up to date on developments as I understand that products are continually being improved and developed (nothing is perfect). Our main objective is to 'enjoy' listening to music and watching films... In pursuit of this we recently purchased a DMR-EX87 that brought us 'upscaling' to 1080p - the DVD movies look significantly better than with our standard DVD player - back to back viewing tests confirm this (to me and others). We then earlier this week purchased a PS3 (for the kids of course for Christmas !)..on standard DVD's , again the 'upscaling' looks great. Earlier this afternoon and with great excitement and anticipation we 'played' our first 'Blu-Ray' DVD - Spiderman 3. We also have the standard DVD of this, which I loaded into the DMR to allow back to back comparison...The Panny 'auto' selected 1080p and Spidy fired up in glorious 'Blu-Ray'....complete with sound..the picture looked very detailed and sharp, with good depth - I could not perceive any 'judder', nor could my (now amused) wife..We then compared this with the standard DVD from the 'upscaled' DMR - same scenes - the Green Goblin scene near the start, and then the sandman being created..the 'Blu-Ray' looked significantly better !! - no doubt to us !!. From a 'viewers' point of view - the panny/ps3 - blu-ray output looked great !!. If there is technical 'judder', we couldn't see it as we watched. Great kit - the panny is super on SD, 1080p upscaled DVD's, and (now even better) 1080p Blu-Ray' !! - apologise for rambling on..I just wanted to share with you our findings that seem relevant to this thread. P.S. thanks to all for the great advice seen and received on this forum.. it has influenced our selection of equipment for the better !! Happy Customers..

 

[Clare Newsome]

Let's put this all into perspective - as we always have, and as other people have done on this Forum, consider many brands.

If you can't afford a Pioneer- our Product of the Year, as if I need to re-assert that - the Panasonics are the best you can buy in flatscreen terms (unless you're talking budget 32in terms, in which case the Samsung L32R87BD is a superb example).

 

[Anonymous]

Clare, I know you would want to put a lid on this whole issue and move on.

But as a reader, I am really confused now. No, not about whether Panasonic TV's do 3:3 pull down for 24 fps signals. Many of us new from the beginning that that was the case.

I am really confused because once Panasonic made it official that they don't do 3:3, you seem to have made a 180 degree turn on the 24 fps concept. Why have you all of a sudden now treat it as though if it's something that doesn't really matter what it is and what it does ?

Am I misinterpreting your recent comments? You do point out in your recent TV buying guide that 24 fps is the best form of HD and therefore all HD ready TV's should be equipped for it.

So what is What Hi Fi's official view on 24 fps?

I know you want to be nice to everyone and not upset one of your major advertisers but surely you had certain criteria when deciding on the award winners. How important was 24 fps in deciding the winner ?

I think it will be for the benefit of the readers to know exactly where you stand on certain issues including this one because in most cases your articles are mostly made up of conclusions without much explanation as to how it was reached.

In other words, total lack of objectivity.

This whole saga was meant to happen and I am sure a lot more will.

 

[Clare Newsome]

[quote user="susanoo"]

How important was 24 fps in deciding the winner ?

[/quote]

The Panasonics - like the Pioneers, and the Samsung - won their Awards for being the very best flatscreens you can buy for the money.

Every set we test is comparatively reviewed with its peers in its prize and size class, being fed exactly the same selection of sources - from an analogue and Freeview broadcast TV to SD and HD Sky channels to standard DVD, upscaled DVD and both Blu-ray and HD DVD sources.

In the case of HD, sets will be tested both with feeds to suit their resolution and with full 1080p/24fps to see how they perform - to check that any compatibility claims for the set are being met.

In all these tests - conducted by a team of reviewers - the recent Panasonics have impressed with their all-round quality, which includes smooth replay of Blu-ray and HD DVD content. The fact they are 24fps compatible (something other magazines have noted, too, along with the superb performance, I might add) is a bonus, but at the end of the day the fact that they outperform other flatscreens from Sony, Philips, Toshiba, Sharp and others is the key point.

As many other posters have noted on this thread, the Panasonics are the best 'value' flatscreens out their if you can't stretch to the Pioneers - and that's our job, to point people in the direction of the best kit their hand-earned money can buy.

And again, I will reiterate that we had all the Award winners on public display at our show, running full feature films from a PS3 at 24fps, so everyone could see what the sets were capable of - something we thought was a useful, helpful feature, especially as Panasonic themselves were not exhibiting at our Show.

Which brings me on the tired-old 'you want to be nice to everyone/advertisers' accusation. Nonsense! If you open up the current issue, you'll see a four-page insert from LG - in the same issue there is a three-star review of one of the same TVs they are advertising. I can give you many, many more such examples. Maybe Rega, who never advertise with the magazine but who won two Products of the Year?

Throughout this thread - and my 1000+ posts on this Forum, the vast majority of them in my own time, like now - I have tried to offer helpful advice that will hopefully cut down the world of confusing options out there for consumers. I and the team will continue to do so both in magazine and online and at Shows.