Panasonic 24fps customers need to know

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Andrew Everard

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And before anyone asks if a Robin Reliant Supervan can do 24fps, yes it can - in fact 60mph at full chat = 88fps.

A Veyron at full whack does just over 371fps
 
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Anonymous

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http://www.tech.co.uk/home-entertainment/tv/tvs-displays/plasma/review/panasonic-th-42px70
OK, got those references, but which were the two important places where you read this...?

Ok, it's not What Hi-Fi (and I'm seriously talking), but I think they are not so crazy to write it ... for fun or ..

Andy (Clough) wrote it too times ago.

Maybe in your test you connect the audio coming from the bluray sources in a different way (a better PA or digital output and not routed by the hdmi cable), that's why you got both pictures and sound ... just a possibility. But you know how you did the testo so ... :)
 

Andrew Everard

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[quote user="mgj"]Ok, it's not What Hi-Fi (and I'm seriously talking), but I think they are not so crazy to write it ... for fun or ..

Andy (Clough) wrote it too times ago.

[/quote]

As we speak, Andy Clough is being interrogated about this moonlighting he is clearly doing for Home Cinema Choice. Whatever that is.

Thank you for bringing this serious matter to our attention.
 

Clare Newsome

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[quote user="mgj"]
Maybe in your test you connect the audio coming from the bluray sources in a different way (a better PA or digital output and not routed by the hdmi cable), that's why you got both pictures and sound ... just a possibility. But you know how you did the testo so ... :)

[/quote]

We did the test by plugging a range of sources into the TV and seeing how it performed for picture and sound. No external sound system involved, just the TV speakers. Which made sound. With every format - from the set's internal Freeview tuner to a DVD player and various HD sources.

I can't speak for any other magazine/freelancer's testing methodology, but I do know our team - in its dedicated test facilities - will try everything to see what a set's capable of.

Hence us finding out about the 24fps issue in the first place, rather than blindly trusting Panasonic's spec-sheets.
 
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Anonymous

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Ok ... are you ready ? ... this will be my last post concerning this subject.
I know it seems incredible, but it is.

I'm a little sad about it (I'm sure you're not!) ... I get use to our civil still hot discussion but I think it's time to say goodbye.

Anyway I want to say hello with something huge. So here it is:
My final, controversial, making Andrew mad question (obviously concerning my battle-horse ... 24fps)

This is a pepper one because even Clare, who always gave me very precious and detailed informations, refuses - till now - to give me a clear answer on it ... (I hope you'll do it this time, my super kind-helpful Clare)

PX70 - as you told me many times - is "compatible", "accept", "is able to hanlde" a 24fps signal.

But in this case giving him a signal coming from a 1080p/24fps source (PS3 forced to run at 1080p/24fps or other bluray players) how does it "handle" this input.

Resolution talking (1080p) it obviously downscale to fit its hd-ready resolution ... but waht about the 24fps

a) is it able to receive 24p (as it can receive 1080p), but then trasform 24fps to 50 or 60hz to reproduce or

b) is it able to receive 24p (as it can receive 1080p), and it's able to reproduce the signal at 24p too (or at least at a natural multiple of it 48, 72 etc.)

I think that also in the option a) it would have passed the PS3 test you told me, correctly showing the image.

a) or b) ?

(my final question ...)

m.
 

Andrew Everard

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My response

1) Clare answered that ages ago - very far from refusing to give an answer.

2) Whether it runs at 24, 48 or 96Hz, or shows it at 2.4GHz with very fast and very talented pixies colouring in all the dots, does it matter if the result is a smooth, judder-free picture? It accepts the signal, and shows it correctly.

3) Whatever I or Clare or even Andy Clough or the spirit of the great Konoske Matsushita tells you, you still won't believe it, because someone writing on some website says differently, and it doesn't say so on Panasonic Tuvalu's website, thought it does on Panasonic Latvia's and Panasonic Turks and Caicos Islands' sites.

4) Most vitally, going round and round in circles on this thread has taken up far too much of all of our time, and has meant that other readers aren't getting answers from us.

5) And I thought the mains cable thread we finally had to delete as it became so abusive was mad.

[quote user="mgj"]
Ok ... are you ready ? ... this will be my last post concerning this subject.
I know it seems incredible, but it is.[/quote]

6) There is a god.
 
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Anonymous

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OMG. If ever there was an "official" magazine forum that answered in this childish kind of way. The Panasonic does NOT handle 24fps the way you guys are suggesting it does. It *will* judder, as it does not do the 24fps pulldown properly. Ofcourse it does not, Panasonic doesn't tell us it does. If it would they would have have declared that long ago. Maybe the new PF10 panel WILL but these current sets most definately do not.

That you guys seem to think that the motion IS judderfree: fine. But please stop making these silly childish remarks. Either answer somebody with FACTS or don't answer at all. It's a shame most magazines get their income from their "sponsors" and will henceforth claim things which definately are not true. If you want judderfree motion get a Pioneer. Sure it's twice as expensive, but that set does it properly. Everybody who tells these current Panasonic's also do a great job are either ignorant or simply can't see judder.
 

Andrew Everard

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[quote user="Pfeffernuss"]It's a shame most magazines get their income from their "sponsors" and will henceforth claim things which definately are not true. [/quote]

Welcome to the forums, Pfeffermuss, and thanks for trawling up the oldest chestnut around. Just to clarify, we have no 'sponsors', and simply tell it as we see it.

If you'd taken the trouble to read the whole thread you'd understand why levity and some hysteria has set in.

But thanks for your definitive answer - [quote user="Pfeffernuss"]Ofcourse it does not, Panasonic doesn't tell us it does[/quote] - it's wrong, but thanks anyway...
 
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Anonymous

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Clare, Andrew or Andy,

Does 24fps also apply to the "pro" range, specifically the th-50pf10uk ?

Cheers,

Dan
 
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Anonymous

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Fascinating thread. BTW to above poster, you are in fact quoting the US model number, our models are THxxPF10BX or EX if EU rather than UK in origin. And your question, thery will accept 24fps on component, always have, and will accept it on the new 10 series dual HDMI board, whiuch fits both PH and PF models. Now, the tricky bit, what they do with it. I don't know, they are not out yet, LOL! However, I'd like to add my theory re vieras. They do not process at 48 or 72Hz, they do it at 60Hz, therefore reintroducing judder. I can see it clearly, I install them for a living, as a CEDIA member custom installer. In fact I avoid vieras like the plague for a number of reasons, some of which have no relevance to joe public who just wants a new telly. For these folks, it's the best value you can buy. If you are seeking a high end display, I suggest you look elsewhere. IR codes are a flippin' nightmare with universal remotes, wall mounting is worse, the connections are badly placed, and they stick off the wall further than any other flat display. As I say, if these things do not apply, fine. The judder thing, it's my belief that it's something a) that some people just don't notice. If you have a region 1 DVD collection and you have not noticed judder, then you are not sensitive, it has always been a part of yank TV. b) you only notice it in certain types of scene, the end credits are a good place to look, or a slow camera pan. On the other hand, don't look, and you will be eternally happy with your viera, or another TV that suffers the same issue, like every single one except Pioneer and Fujitsu. Internal refresh at 60Hz gives judder, end of story. Some cheap and very nasty TVs, like those awful things flogged by Tiny a few years back, refresh everything at 60Hz, meaning your PAL TV judders too. Nice. The only smooth thing on a TV like this is video based material, like R1 dvds of TV shows, and X-Box 360. Vieras, and almost all UK tvs do refresh PAL at 50 or 100 Hz.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Read this thread with interest, and mounting confusion...Why can't the real questions be answered?....

Why should we have to put up with these invisible defects? Just because you can't see them doesn't mean it won't be annoying.

Why is your methodology in rating TVs so focussed on what the eye can detect?

Why do you always answer the same question with the same answer, aren't you listening properly?

Surely MGJ deserves to get the same answer from everybody, otherwise what's the point in having an internet?

I feel a bit better now.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Indeed an intriguing thread.

mgj and pfeffernus, don't be too cruel to the What Hi Fi team. There is no evil in ignorance itself. Ignorance is bliss.

No matter what they may say, there is only one truth and that is,

The Panasonic TV's in question may "display" 24fps signals but they would not do so as originally intended.

These are the facts.

1. The TV's in question does not support 1080 24p signals.

This is confirmed by the owner's manual of the products and the fact that What Hi Fi admits that Panasonic never affirmed support.

2. Playstation 3 will output 1080 24p signal ONLY when;

The Blu-ray disc content is actually authored in 24fps AND

It is connected to a display that supports 1080 24p input via HDMI AND

"Automatic" or "On" is selected in the "BD 1080p 24 Hz Output (HDMI)" menu

3. If the TV officially supports 24fps input, it will mean that it will at least do 3:3 pulldown

to reduce flickering. 3:3 pulldown is possible ONLY when it is engineered into the cadence detection system of the TV

If the above criteria are not met, the TV may display the input signal but it would not display it as it was intended, ie equivalent cadence to that of film. The whole concept of enabling 24fps output / input / and display is to recreate the original cinematic experience.

Yes, the TV's in question may display but because they do not have proper 3:3 pull down it will not be able to display at a proper cadence or have flickering due to low refresh rate. (Recall that, although actual films are 24fps, each frame is projected twice before progressing to the next frame in actual cinemas. This in effect creates 48 fps images to reduce flickering)

So What Hi Fi teams claim may be correct. The TV's may not have problems dispalying.

BUT THAT'S NOT THE POINT! The expectation, because of the concept behind 24fps output is in improvement in the experience, to have motion picture quality equal to that of real cinematic films.

But arguing all this against the innocent is too vain. So let's not get upset mgj and pfeffernus and all other silent readers. It should feel better if you realise who you are trying to deal with.

BTW As far as I know, Pioneer and Sony are the only brand with TVs supporting 24fps at this point in time. Panasonic by the way supports 24fps in their projector line of products.

PS I can only assume that in What Hi Fi's vocabulary advertisers are not "sponsors" or this is again pure ignorance.
 

Clare Newsome

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Thank you. We are only aiming to steer people to the best TV performance per pound - we don't care which manufacturer that TV comes from, just that people don't listen to hype over performance fact.

That's why we showed all our Award winning TVs on a public gallery at our Show, playing Blu-ray content, so people had no less than three days to judge the performance of a range of sets with 24fps content.

And I really wish people wouldn't trot out the sad 'advertiser' agenda - if you look at our latest issue, you'll see TV adverts from Hitachi, Loewe, LG and others, none of which feature in our Award winning or Group-test winning line up.

We have one agenda, and one agenda only - to steer people towards making a shortlist of the best products around,.
 

Andrew Everard

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[quote user="susanoo"]
mgj and pfeffernus, don't be too cruel to the What Hi Fi team. There is no evil in ignorance itself. Ignorance is bliss...

But arguing all this against the innocent is too vain. So let's not get upset mgj and pfeffernus and all other silent readers. It should feel better if you realise who you are trying to deal with...

PS I can only assume that in What Hi Fi's vocabulary advertisers are not "sponsors" or this is again pure ignorance.

[/quote]

So apart from the fact we're ignorant, devious and corrupt, what else about us draws you to use our web-forum...?

emotion-1.gif


Very cynical for a second post, Susanoo - rather like your first one, in fact.

I sense a theme developing...
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Whereas all your recent posts in this thread have been quite helpful and full of information, right Andrew? Maybe it's time to stop being cynical and "funny" yourself once in a while. That will certainly make this a better place. It's mainly your way of anwering people that I actually took the hassle to register myself. Sure you might very well be a capable guy but this is not the way a spokesperson of a magazine has to answer, in my opinion that is.

All "we" want to know is: does the Panasonic *fully* support 24fps, as in: 48/72/xxHz fluid playback. The fact that *you* don't see any judder is very very nice, but not relevant. You guys keep on stating diplomatic things which for the unknowing reader might suggest that this television will indeed do the same thing as a "proper" 24fps television like the (obviously much much more expensive) Pioneer.

So: okay, the Panasonic accepts a 24fps signal and has "smooth judderfree" 24fps playback, but DOES it to 3:2 pulldown at 48/72/xxHz? That is ALL I would like to know. Truth be told, I already know the answer but it would be nice to hear it coming from anybody at your side.

Alas, pretty sure there will again be an evasive answer which will not make matters clear.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
[quote user="Pfeffernuss"]

All "we" want to know is: does the Panasonic *fully* support 24fps, as in: 48/72/xxHz fluid playback. The fact that *you* don't see any judder is very very nice, but not relevant. [...]

So: okay, the Panasonic accepts a 24fps signal and has "smooth judderfree" 24fps playback, but DOES it to 3:2 pulldown at 48/72/xxHz? That is ALL I would like to know.
[/quote]

me too !!

Seriously, no polemic.
I'm not interested in the advertising dispute and I think What HiFi editors are honest specialists.

But no elusive answers too (last Clare and Adrew's post)

Just a clear answer to the above question, that's all.

Is it too much ?
 
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Anonymous

Guest
[quote user="Pfeffernuss"]All "we" want to know is: does the Panasonic *fully* support 24fps, as in: 48/72/xxHz fluid playback. The fact that *you* don't see any judder is very very nice, but not relevant. So: okay, the Panasonic accepts a 24fps signal and has "smooth judderfree" 24fps playback, but DOES it to 3:2 pulldown at 48/72/xxHz? That is ALL I would like to know.
[/quote]

... no aswers

[quote user="mgj"]
a) is it able to receive 24p (as it can receive 1080p), but then trasform 24fps to 50 or 60hz to reproduce or
b)
is it able to receive 24p (as it can receive 1080p), and it's able to
reproduce the signal at 24p too (or at least at a natural multiple of
it 48, 72 etc.)
a) or b) ?
[/quote]
... no answers yet ...
 

Clare Newsome

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Some serious TV technology is coming your way, courtesy of Andy Kerr - deputy editor - who knows more than is possibly legal on the subject. He's just limbering up with a trip to the dentists (seriously!)
 
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Anonymous

Guest
I haven't really thought this through, it's just an idea that popped up in my head. If you really wanted to check if a tv was handling 24fps material at the correct speed, maybe you could check the actual running time of a film on the tv and then compare it to the running time when shown on an 'officially' 24fps Pioneer.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
We're all anxiously waiting for Andy's "verdict".

Hope he'll finally give us a clear answer to the question (remembering we'd like to know about both PX70 and PZ70 Pana).
 
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Anonymous

Guest
That would indeed be very helpful! No doubt the next Panasonic panels will be fully 24fps compliant or whatever it's called. But to know if these current panels are also fully supported would be nice indeed.

In the meantime respect to What Hifi for keeping this thread open, despite the "abuse"/heated arguments. That is something I really do appreciate.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Evening gents. Apologies for the late reply: partially, it's taken me this long to plough through all the content in this thread.

Right, first things first, and this going to frustrate a lot of you, but bear with me. Panasonic's official line is that they can neither confirm or deny that the PX70 sets support 1080p/24. I know Clare (and others) have already posted that info, but given the length of this thread, I thought it worth reiterating. Why has the company taken this stance? I honestly have no idea. However, conversations we've had with product managers at the company - who we can't, at the moment, persuade to go on the record, much as we're trying - suggest that it's a case of corporate caution, rather than a huge mistake on our part.

Now let's talk practicalities. All this talk of PS3 has somewhat muddied the waters, so let's be more explicit. We've tried PX-series plasmas connected to the following: Pioneer BDP-LX70 and LX70A, Sony BDP-S1E, Sony BDP-S300, Toshiba HD-XE1 (after the latest firmware, of course) and Toshiba HD-EP35. In all cases, when the source kit in question was set to output at 1080p/24fps, the display device displayed the image correctly. And by correctly, I mean at the correct cadence, with none of the distressing judder that so afflicts a real-time conversion of 24fps into 30fps content. With the Pioneer and Sony kit, we were able to get visual confirmation, too: each disc player puts up an onscreen message when you change output resolution or frame-rate, and each instance, with each source, the Panasonics tested clearly indicated a 1080p/24fps message on their screens.

Is that definitive? Probably not, at least not for some. However, attempting precisely the same process with several other screens, including, for example, Samsung's LE32R87 LCD, results in a blank screen, followed by an 'unsupported' message. The Panasonics, as stated, simply get on with the job of showing the picture.

Now it's feasible that they're accepting a native 24fps signal and performing a real-time conversion to a supported frame rate, such as 30fps, of course it is. I just consider it incredibly unlikely. The computational power required to do that job effectively is, I believe, way beyond the capability of a comparatively affordable plasma display. Witness the poor, judder-laden results we've seen from early Blu-ray and HD DVD players, before they could be purchased with native 24fps output support.

Finally - at least for now - let me put forward one other point of interest. As several of the team have pointed out, we were showing Blu-ray content via a PS3 on our high-def gallery at our recent show. This involved one example of said Sony, set to output at 1080p/24, using commercially available Blu-ray discs (either Spiderman 3 or Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer, depending on the day). This was then connected into a multiway Gefen HDMI distributor, courtesy of those fine fellows at TMG. This fed six screens: Panasonic's TX-26LXD70, TX-32LXD700, TH-37PX70 and TH-42PX70, plus two Pioneers, the PDP-428XD and PDP-LX508D. Of course, where appropriate, those screens were scaling the content to suit their needs: only the LX508D was able to display the signal dot-for-dot. Now first, you'd imagine one key issue would be that if all six screens were receiving the same video feed, but only two of the four offered support for the content, the other four TVs would show a blank screen, just like the Samsung mentioned above, wouldn't you? Not so. So the alternative possibility is the notion that the Panasonics are all performing a real-time video conversion to a frame rate they can understand.

But this is the thing. During the course of those three days of demos, over 1500 people came into our demo room. All of them had been given ample opportunity to look at the screens during the course of the day: they had no choice, because they were positioned right alongside the queue. And I made a big point of explaining to each and every visitor during my presentation that each TV was receiving 1080p/24 content, partially to highlight that so-called Full HD resolution isn't necessarily the key deciding factor in image quality. Yet not one of them said, at any time, "Fine, but I noticed those Panasonics were juddering like crazy".

Again, folks, I'm trying to be completely open-minded here, but I've been working on this magazine for 13 years, and have attended dozens of shows in my time, so I ought to know our audience. So believe me when I say that the Great British Hi-Fi Show Goer is neither shy about coming forward or reticent about pointing out a problem. If someone had seen judder and been bothered by it, even if it was just one person in 1500, they'd have said. But no-one did.

I'm only pointing all that out because it strikes me that in some quarters there's a perception that somehow we're simply not noticing the judder on screen: that it's there, but we can't see it. Now none of you know me to trust me, so I can't say something like 'believe me' and have any credibility - but still, for what it's worth, I can't see it. And I've seen more flatscreens (and CRTs, and projectors, and whatever) than most people I know. And that's not to say that I can't see other issues with the PX70 series TVs in terms of image quality: they're not perfect, because no TV is (although the PDP-LX508D gets closer than most in my humble opinion). But the salient point, and the one that I hope will satisfy at least some of you, is this: we've tried all of the PX sets, with lots of different sources and many discs, and to our experienced eyes, they're fine. Until someone at Panasonic is prepared to back us up, that's just about the only useful light I can shed on the matter, but I hope it's of some comfort to some of you.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Nice one Andy, that was a gripping read! You only mentioned the PX series though, so can you confirm that what you said is true of the PZ series too? Also, you say that carrying out a real-time conversion of a native 24fps signal into 30fps is beyond the 'computational power' of an 'affordable plasma'. However, surely the job of scaling pictures to fit a screen's resolution (something that obviously has to be done by any flatscreen) must itself need a huge amount of computational power? Anyway, cheers Andy I really enjoyed reading your post.
 

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