Out with the New, In with the Old?

[CnoEvil]

Cno and KEF go hand in hand
You can have an affair with other brands but once the honeymoon is over the divorce proceedings will start.

Maybe.....or maybe not.

Up to now, there has been no other brand that has come close....and that's because, to my ears, Kef sound better than other brands using "Modern" thinking on cabinet design.

Harbeth are so totally different, that they compete - If that makes sense.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Cno and KEF go hand in hand
You can have an affair with other brands but once the honeymoon is over the divorce proceedings will start.

Maybe.....or maybe not.

Up to now, there has been no other brand that has come close....and that's because, to my ears, Kef sound better than other brands using "Modern" thinking on cabinet design.

Harbeth are so totally different, that they compete - If that makes sense.

I never warned ya
Lol

 

[CnoEvil]

I haven’t heard the 40.2’s but have heard the Super HL5 plus. These exhibited great naturalness, resolution and clarity, but I’m put off by being able to clearly hear the cabinet at certain frequencies. IMO in its day, the BBC approach to move troublesome cabinet resonances down the frequency range where they wouldn’t be noticed so much was a clever design trick. But this was when all speakers were pretty much made from flat panels. I think we’ve moved on and the work Franco Serblin did with curved and asymmetric cabinets pretty much solves the cabinet resonance problem and hence why Sonus Fabers sound better to my ears. 

If the decision was between Ref 3s and SLHS 5+, there is no difficulty.

The 40.2s are a different matter.
There is something about looking at a big box, which you know has thin walls, that can have you automatically convinced that it sounds boxy....especially when you then play the Kefs. It's for very good reason that David said that doing an audition like this, can be problematical.

Is the sound of the Harbeths more like real musicians, playing realistic instruments, in front of you?

Is the sound of the Kefs more impressive on first listen, but more "Hifi"?

It goes without saying that the Kefs measure well....but so I believe, do the Harbeths, which are so coherent that they sound like one big driver. They sound totally real on the things that I use to judge a good speaker ie. Human Voice, Piano, Violin and Soprano...and their 8" mid range unit seamlessly covers a wide range range.

My choice will come down to which speaker gives me the stronger emotional connection with the music.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I haven’t heard the 40.2’s but have heard the Super HL5 plus. These exhibited great naturalness, resolution and clarity, but I’m put off by being able to clearly hear the cabinet at certain frequencies. IMO in its day, the BBC approach to move troublesome cabinet resonances down the frequency range where they wouldn’t be noticed so much was a clever design trick. But this was when all speakers were pretty much made from flat panels. I think we’ve moved on and the work Franco Serblin did with curved and asymmetric cabinets pretty much solves the cabinet resonance problem and hence why Sonus Fabers sound better to my ears.

If the decision was between Ref 3s and SLHS 5+, there is no difficulty.

The 40.2s are a different matter. There is something about looking at a big box, which you know has thin walls, that can have you automatically convinced that it sounds boxy....especially when you then play the Kefs. It's for very good reason that David said that doing an audition like this, can be problematical.

Is the sound of the Harbeths more like real musicians, playing realistic instruments, in front of you?

Is the sound of the Kefs more impressive on first listen, but more "Hifi"?

It goes without saying that the Kefs measure well....but so I believe, do the Harbeths, which are so coherent that they sound like one big driver. They sound totally real on the things that I use to judge a good speaker ie. Human Voice, Piano, Violin and Soprano...and their 8" mid range unit seamlessly covers a wide range range.

My choice will come down to which speaker gives me the stronger emotional connection with the music.

Do you think that driver size makes a difference to how music sounds ?

basically that’s what size I have now with my Dali opticon 8s but my worry is when I get my rubicon 8s they have 6” and half drivers and the cabinets are roughly the same size as the opticon 8s cabinets so I would be pushing the same amount of air still but using smaller drivers

Do you think this would make any difference ?

 

[CnoEvil]

My totally inexpert answer to your question is, Yes and No.

- All things being equal, a bigger Bass Driver goes lower...but all things aren't equal. For example, the newer Ref 3s have 2 x 6.5" Bass drivers, compared to the 2 x 8" drivers in my 205/2s...yet the newer Ref 3s go deeper, with a punchier bass.

- The big Harbeths have 1 x 12" Woofer and go deeper than the Kefs....so it's probably down to design, materials, implementation and cabinet volume.

- Big Drivers seem to give effortless Bass and smaller drivers seem to give tighter bass...but this is probably a bit of a subjective generalisation. Certainly, the Refs have very controlled Bass...almost like a sealed box.
I'm sure someone with more expertise than me can give a more informed answer.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

My totally inexpert answer to your question is, Yes and No.

- All things being equal, the size of the Bass Driver goes lower...but all things aren't equal. For example, the newer Ref 3s have 2 x 6.5" Bass drivers, compared to the 2 x 8" drivers in my 205/2s...yet the newer Ref 3s go deeper, with a punchier bass.

- The big Harbeths have 1 x 12" Woofer and go deeper than the Kefs....so it's probably down to design, materials, implementation and cabinet volume.

- Big Drivers seem to give effortless Bass and smaller drivers seem to give tighter bass...but this is probably a bit of a subjective generalisation. Certainly, the Refs have very controlled Bass...almost like a sealed box. I'm sure someone with more expertise than me can give a more informed answer.

yes your right this is the same as the rubicon 8s there bass is a lot deeper then the Dali opticon 8s which uses the 8” driver even though the drivers are smaller then the 8” drives I’ve got at the moment and the rubicon 8s uses 3x 6.5” drivers and the hybrid tweeters which makes you believe that the rubicon 8s are classed as a 3 way speakers but they are a classed as 2. And a half way setup even though they have 3 Drivers I didn’t understand how that is to be honest .

must be something to do with driver crossover in which order they fire sound I reckon

 

[newlash09]

Designs, they say bigger drivers go deeper and lower at the cost of speed. So they suggest to stick with 10" inch woofers for music. As bigger drivers loose the speed required for music.

Bigger drivers give a thicker richer sound in my limited experience. Smaller drivers sound lean in comparison. So basically have to choose between tight fast bass and rich effortless bass, albeit with a little bloom .

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Designs, they say bigger drivers go deeper and lower at the cost of speed. So they suggest to stick with 10" inch woofers for music. As bigger drivers loose the speed required for music.

Bigger drivers give a thicker richer sound in my limited experience. Smaller drivers sound lean in comparison. So basically have to choose between tight fast bass and rich effortless bass, albeit with a little bloom .

I was just interested Newlash if Coevil thought about driver size when looking at speakers when he is demoing speakers before making his choice in what make of speakers he will end up with but sometimes it’s not about that it’s mostly about sound quality I was just interested if driver size made any differences to music .

i will start a thread on it as I do not want to de rail Coevils great thread *smile*

 

[CnoEvil]

By all means start a thread....but don't worry about derailing this one.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

By all means start a thread....but don't worry about derailing this one.

I start one mate as I am interested to find out about driver size and weather this makes any difference to sound quality

Hopefully someone who has more knowledge then me can explain my question *smile*

 

[Andrewjvt]

My totally inexpert answer to your question is, Yes and No.

- All things being equal, the size of the Bass Driver goes lower...but all things aren't equal. For example, the newer Ref 3s have 2 x 6.5" Bass drivers, compared to the 2 x 8" drivers in my 205/2s...yet the newer Ref 3s go deeper, with a punchier bass.

- The big Harbeths have 1 x 12" Woofer and go deeper than the Kefs....so it's probably down to design, materials, implementation and cabinet volume.

- Big Drivers seem to give effortless Bass and smaller drivers seem to give tighter bass...but this is probably a bit of a subjective generalisation. Certainly, the Refs have very controlled Bass...almost like a sealed box. I'm sure someone with more expertise than me can give a more informed answer.

yes your right this is the same as the rubicon 8s there bass is a lot deeper then the Dali opticon 8s which uses the 8” driver even though the drivers are smaller then the 8” drives I’ve got at the moment and the rubicon 8s uses 3x 6.5” drivers and the hybrid tweeters which makes you believe that the rubicon 8s are classed as a 3 way speakers but they are a classed as 2. And a half way setup even though they have 3 Drivers I  didn’t understand how that is to be honest .

must be something to do with driver crossover in which order they fire sound  I reckon 

I thought you said the Rubicon 8 also has 8 inch drivers.

Atcs 15 inch super linear driver is as tight/agile as any competitions 6 inch but more effortless

Edit sorry cno I sent this this morning but only sent now

 

[Blacksabbath25]

My totally inexpert answer to your question is, Yes and No.

- All things being equal, the size of the Bass Driver goes lower...but all things aren't equal. For example, the newer Ref 3s have 2 x 6.5" Bass drivers, compared to the 2 x 8" drivers in my 205/2s...yet the newer Ref 3s go deeper, with a punchier bass.

- The big Harbeths have 1 x 12" Woofer and go deeper than the Kefs....so it's probably down to design, materials, implementation and cabinet volume.

- Big Drivers seem to give effortless Bass and smaller drivers seem to give tighter bass...but this is probably a bit of a subjective generalisation. Certainly, the Refs have very controlled Bass...almost like a sealed box. I'm sure someone with more expertise than me can give a more informed answer.

yes your right this is the same as the rubicon 8s there bass is a lot deeper then the Dali opticon 8s which uses the 8” driver even though the drivers are smaller then the 8” drives I’ve got at the moment and the rubicon 8s uses 3x 6.5” drivers and the hybrid tweeters which makes you believe that the rubicon 8s are classed as a 3 way speakers but they are a classed as 2. And a half way setup even though they have 3 Drivers I didn’t understand how that is to be honest .

must be something to do with driver crossover in which order they fire sound I reckon

I thought you said the Rubicon 8 also has 8 inch drivers.

Atcs 15 inch super linear driver is as tight/agile as any competitions 6 inch but more effortless

well going by the Dali website they are 6.5” drivers hence why I asked CoEvil the question about driver size as I currently have 8” drivers

 

[Infiniteloop]

Any update Cno? The reason I'm particularly interested is that we will finally be moving house in a couple of weeks. I have some money set aside for a new Turntable (probably an SME 20/3 + V), but I'm beginning to think the money might be better spent on some new speakers for the lounge which is going to be very different to the one we have now. At the moment my speakers fire across the lounge from the fireplace, but in the new house the fireplace will be at one end and so they will fire down the length of it (there's really no other way to accommodate them). The new lounge is slightly bigger (19' x 14') and more square than the existing one and has a slightly lower, beamed ceiling.

The most important thing in all this is that Mrs Loop seems agreeable, so I'm going to strike while I can.

Anyway, I'm beginning to think that a pair of Ref 5's would do very nicely...... (and the TT can wait)! I am also interested in the Harbeth 40.2s although can't get away from the boxiness. I was also very impressed with the Quad 2912's when I heard them in Bristol, but what puts me off with these is the need to send them away every two years for servicing. That, and the fear the cats may use them as scratching posts. *shok*

So, the Ref 5's are the leading contender, although I need to have another listen.

It's going to be interesting....

 

[CnoEvil]

Nothing has happened yet....and will post any updates.

My advice if looking at the Refs, is make sure that the Ref 3s don't give you all the scale you want. If looking at the Ref 5s....I would be looking at going up to the Blade 2s.

The 40.2s are a very different animal to the SHL5+. They need time to fully appreciate what they do...and as much room to breathe as possible. They just sound like real musicians playing in your room. I think that some of the boxiness can come from being too close to boundaries.

I think the Kefs will be more dependent on synergy with the Amp used than the Harbeths. Both are brilliant.

Anyway, if I can give any help, let me know.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Nothing has happened yet....and will post any updates.

My advice if looking at the Refs, is make sure that the Ref 3s don't give you all the scale you want. If looking at the Ref 5s....I would be looking at going up to the Blade 2s.

The 40.2s are a very different animal to the SHL5+. They need time to fully appreciate what they do...and as much room to breathe as possible. They just sound like real musicians playing in your room. I think that some of the boxiness can come from being too close to boundaries.

I think the Kefs will be more dependent on synergy with the Amp used than the Harbeths. Both are brilliant.

Anyway, if I can give any help, let me know.

The Blade 2’s aren’t even a consideration I’m afraid. I personally hate the looks and on top of that they’d be going in a traditional late 18th Century cottage lounge. Beams, oak doors, wood burning stove, exposed brick fireplace. The 5’s will have sympathetic aesthetics. The Blade 2’s will not. Most importantly, Mrs Loop would have a cow.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Nothing has happened yet....and will post any updates.

My advice if looking at the Refs, is make sure that the Ref 3s don't give you all the scale you want. If looking at the Ref 5s....I would be looking at going up to the Blade 2s.

The 40.2s are a very different animal to the SHL5+. They need time to fully appreciate what they do...and as much room to breathe as possible. They just sound like real musicians playing in your room. I think that some of the boxiness can come from being too close to boundaries.

I think the Kefs will be more dependent on synergy with the Amp used than the Harbeths. Both are brilliant.

Anyway, if I can give any help, let me know.

The Blade 2’s aren’t even a consideration I’m afraid. I personally hate the looks and on top of that they’d be going in a traditional late 18th Century cottage lounge. Beams, oak doors, wood burning stove, exposed brick fireplace. The 5’s will have sympathetic aesthetics. The Blade 2’s will not. Most importantly, Mrs Loop would have a cow. 

The reference speakers will suit the rustic interior either

 

[nopiano]

Nothing has happened yet....and will post any updates.

My advice if looking at the Refs, is make sure that the Ref 3s don't give you all the scale you want. If looking at the Ref 5s....I would be looking at going up to the Blade 2s.

The 40.2s are a very different animal to the SHL5+. They need time to fully appreciate what they do...and as much room to breathe as possible. They just sound like real musicians playing in your room. I think that some of the boxiness can come from being too close to boundaries.

I think the Kefs will be more dependent on synergy with the Amp used than the Harbeths. Both are brilliant.

Anyway, if I can give any help, let me know.

The Blade 2’s aren’t even a consideration I’m afraid. I personally hate the looks and on top of that they’d be going in a traditional late 18th Century cottage lounge. Beams, oak doors, wood burning stove, exposed brick fireplace. The 5’s will have sympathetic aesthetics. The Blade 2’s will not. Most importantly, Mrs Loop would have a cow.

Have you heard any Sf Olympicas, IL? They look gorgeous, as you know already, and might look less hi-tech than the KEFs.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Nothing has happened yet....and will post any updates.

My advice if looking at the Refs, is make sure that the Ref 3s don't give you all the scale you want. If looking at the Ref 5s....I would be looking at going up to the Blade 2s.

The 40.2s are a very different animal to the SHL5+. They need time to fully appreciate what they do...and as much room to breathe as possible. They just sound like real musicians playing in your room. I think that some of the boxiness can come from being too close to boundaries.

I think the Kefs will be more dependent on synergy with the Amp used than the Harbeths. Both are brilliant.

Anyway, if I can give any help, let me know.

The Blade 2’s aren’t even a consideration I’m afraid. I personally hate the looks and on top of that they’d be going in a traditional late 18th Century cottage lounge. Beams, oak doors, wood burning stove, exposed brick fireplace. The 5’s will have sympathetic aesthetics. The Blade 2’s will not. Most importantly, Mrs Loop would have a cow.

The reference speakers will suit the rustic interior either

They will look just fine in American Walnut.

The interior isn’t exactly rustic. It’s traditional, but the white walls give it a simple, almost contemporary elegance.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Nothing has happened yet....and will post any updates.

My advice if looking at the Refs, is make sure that the Ref 3s don't give you all the scale you want. If looking at the Ref 5s....I would be looking at going up to the Blade 2s.

The 40.2s are a very different animal to the SHL5+. They need time to fully appreciate what they do...and as much room to breathe as possible. They just sound like real musicians playing in your room. I think that some of the boxiness can come from being too close to boundaries.

I think the Kefs will be more dependent on synergy with the Amp used than the Harbeths. Both are brilliant.

Anyway, if I can give any help, let me know.

The Blade 2’s aren’t even a consideration I’m afraid. I personally hate the looks and on top of that they’d be going in a traditional late 18th Century cottage lounge. Beams, oak doors, wood burning stove, exposed brick fireplace. The 5’s will have sympathetic aesthetics. The Blade 2’s will not. Most importantly, Mrs Loop would have a cow.

Have you heard any Sf Olympicas, IL? They look gorgeous, as you know already, and might look less hi-tech than the KEFs.

Indeed I have. I love Sonus Faber. I have a pair of Cremona Auditor M’s that I use in a second system and before that I had a pair of Concertos that I enjoyed for many years.

The problem with the Olympica II (or III) is that when I heard them I thought the sound was a little ‘thick’. The Ref 5’s sound much cleaner and open.

I’m not averse to having an element of modernity in a traditional interior, but the Blades are just too much. The Ref 5’s strike a nice balance. Big Harbeths or Spendors would work too. Really it’s about the sound, but I can only push things so far with Mrs Loop.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Nothing has happened yet....and will post any updates.

My advice if looking at the Refs, is make sure that the Ref 3s don't give you all the scale you want. If looking at the Ref 5s....I would be looking at going up to the Blade 2s.

The 40.2s are a very different animal to the SHL5+. They need time to fully appreciate what they do...and as much room to breathe as possible. They just sound like real musicians playing in your room. I think that some of the boxiness can come from being too close to boundaries.

I think the Kefs will be more dependent on synergy with the Amp used than the Harbeths. Both are brilliant.

Anyway, if I can give any help, let me know.

The Blade 2’s aren’t even a consideration I’m afraid. I personally hate the looks and on top of that they’d be going in a traditional late 18th Century cottage lounge. Beams, oak doors, wood burning stove, exposed brick fireplace. The 5’s will have sympathetic aesthetics. The Blade 2’s will not. Most importantly, Mrs Loop would have a cow. 

The reference speakers will suit the rustic interior either

They will look just fine in American Walnut.

The interior isn’t exactly rustic. It’s traditional, but the white walls give it a simple, almost contemporary elegance.

 

Sounds nice

 

[Andrewjvt]

Nothing has happened yet....and will post any updates.

My advice if looking at the Refs, is make sure that the Ref 3s don't give you all the scale you want. If looking at the Ref 5s....I would be looking at going up to the Blade 2s.

The 40.2s are a very different animal to the SHL5+. They need time to fully appreciate what they do...and as much room to breathe as possible. They just sound like real musicians playing in your room. I think that some of the boxiness can come from being too close to boundaries.

I think the Kefs will be more dependent on synergy with the Amp used than the Harbeths. Both are brilliant.

Anyway, if I can give any help, let me know.

The Blade 2’s aren’t even a consideration I’m afraid. I personally hate the looks and on top of that they’d be going in a traditional late 18th Century cottage lounge. Beams, oak doors, wood burning stove, exposed brick fireplace. The 5’s will have sympathetic aesthetics. The Blade 2’s will not. Most importantly, Mrs Loop would have a cow. 

Have you heard any Sf Olympicas, IL?  They look gorgeous, as you know already, and might look less hi-tech than the KEFs. 

Indeed I have. I love Sonus Faber. I have a pair of Cremona Auditor M’s that I use in a second system and before that I had a pair of Concertos that I enjoyed for many years.

The problem with the Olympica II (or III) is that when I heard them I thought the sound was a little ‘thick’. The Ref 5’s sound much cleaner and open.

I’m not averse to having an element of modernity in a traditional interior, but the Blades are just too much. The Ref 5’s strike a nice balance. Big Harbeths or Spendors would work too. Really it’s about the sound, but I can only push things so far with Mrs Loop. 

I have to agree on the look of the blades.
One of those designs that is the opposite of timeless and has gone out of date very fast imo.

 

[davidf]

The Blade 2’s aren’t even a consideration I’m afraid. I personally hate the looks and on top of that they’d be going in a traditional late 18th Century cottage lounge. Beams, oak doors, wood burning stove, exposed brick fireplace. The 5’s will have sympathetic aesthetics. The Blade 2’s will not. Most importantly, Mrs Loop would have a cow.

If you search for Blade pics on the web, I’ve seen a few in more traditional looking rooms, and with the right colour, they actually blend in really well, despite their modern, lifestyle type look. One pic I saw was a predominantly black and white room, and with the Blade 2s in black, they went really well in it.

 

[Macspur]

Nothing has happened yet....and will post any updates.

My advice if looking at the Refs, is make sure that the Ref 3s don't give you all the scale you want. If looking at the Ref 5s....I would be looking at going up to the Blade 2s.

The 40.2s are a very different animal to the SHL5+. They need time to fully appreciate what they do...and as much room to breathe as possible. They just sound like real musicians playing in your room. I think that some of the boxiness can come from being too close to boundaries.

I think the Kefs will be more dependent on synergy with the Amp used than the Harbeths. Both are brilliant.

Anyway, if I can give any help, let me know.

The Blade 2’s aren’t even a consideration I’m afraid. I personally hate the looks and on top of that they’d be going in a traditional late 18th Century cottage lounge. Beams, oak doors, wood burning stove, exposed brick fireplace. The 5’s will have sympathetic aesthetics. The Blade 2’s will not. Most importantly, Mrs Loop would have a cow.

Have you heard any Sf Olympicas, IL? They look gorgeous, as you know already, and might look less hi-tech than the KEFs.

Indeed I have. I love Sonus Faber. I have a pair of Cremona Auditor M’s that I use in a second system and before that I had a pair of Concertos that I enjoyed for many years.

The problem with the Olympica II (or III) is that when I heard them I thought the sound was a little ‘thick’. The Ref 5’s sound much cleaner and open.

I’m not averse to having an element of modernity in a traditional interior, but the Blades are just too much. The Ref 5’s strike a nice balance. Big Harbeths or Spendors would work too. Really it’s about the sound, but I can only push things so far with Mrs Loop.

Spendor D7 are supposed to be a bit special.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[iceman16]

Cno.. What's your final thought on the Ref3 when driven by the AMS 35i? I've had a listen to them again last sat. in shop not with my amp but a MF M6si/Bluesound node2/Chord dave dac. I was very impressed overall but a tad hardening in the mids and highs. Vocals sound fuller and more refined than my Focals. So I asked to disconnect the Chord Dave and just plugged in the Bluesound directly to amp, the sound was a bit warmer but the expense of a bit overall clarity and punch. The best thing that struck me is the wide dispersion of mids and highs without toe-in. The Focals sounds more "faster" and agile in comparison and they're toe to toe in detail. shhhh...I think you know that Cno.

 

[ellisdj]

with the Dave you can select HF or HIFI to be on and that stops the hardening of the top end in my experience using one - not just on the REF's. Did you try that?

You can get the REF's to sound more nimble - but other speakers sound faster for sure, I noticed that with the B&W 705's