New speakers for my hifi system

[Paristhea]

Hi all.

i am considering buying a new pair of speakers and like some advice pls.

Currently I have the Proac Studio 140 mk2, which I bought second hand. Linn Axis with Benz micro glider SL, Pro-ject RS preamp and power amp, Pro-ject RS Phono stage, Creek Evolution 50CD.

I am considering either the new Proac Studio 148 (no review available yet), or the Proac Response D18. My room is quite large around 8m x 10m.

My dealer also sells KEF and Q-Acoustics, but I seem to be a Proac fan.

I like neutral well balanced music, not a bass freak, good and clear mid and highs. I listen mostly to classical and jazz music.

I do not understand the meaning of sound staging, if someone can explain this pls.

Any advice is welcome.

Thanks

 

[CnoEvil]

IMO. There you have two options, both of which you should check out:

1. Keep your speakers and change the amp for something like Sugden A21, Hegel, Electrocompaniet ECI-3 or Pathos.

2. Change the speakers - I would recommend the Kef R700s.

FWIW. I would probably go with Option 1 using Sugden or Pathos.

 

[hg]

For a large room your current speakers look undersized and your proposed ones possibly worse. Are you happy with your current speakers when playing orchestral pieces at normal volumes? My recommendation would be to keep your current speakers and add a subwoofer or two. You might be surprised by how much this cleans up the sound by reducing the displacement of the midwoofers and the intermodulation distortion it causes.

 

[Paristhea]

Thanks Cno Evil. I bought the current amp combination just last Xmas so it is not a sensible option for me plus I am quite happy with the results of these small factor Projects.

i could try the KEF's at home to see if there is any improvement. I will let people know.

Regards.

 

[Paristhea]

Thanks hg. Well the bass is already plentiful from the Proac's.

The floor is solid parquet and few glass doors and windows are there too. I would say it is rather hard overall. Some carpet rags here and there plus all the furniture are fabric.

The current set up produced more than adequate bass I think. My desire is to improve the clarity and intensity of the mid and high frequencies, I think. The sound i get now is not bad at all, but my ear is itching for more mid and highs.

How would subwoofers help my cause, if you could elaborate please?

Regards

 

[CnoEvil]

Thanks Cno Evil. I bought the current amp combination just last Xmas so it is not a sensible option for me plus I am quite happy with the results of these small factor Projects.

i could try the KEF's at home to see if there is any improvement. I will let people know.

Regards.

Here is the logic for my suggestion (which you are quite entitled to ignore):

- You have a sum of money with which to achieve your goal of clear mids and highs, so it should be placed where it is most effective, even if that's the amp. BTW. What amps have you listened to?

- Proac and Sugden (or possibly Pathos) are a known match for very good reason.

- You obviously like the Proacs and your taste in music of Jazz/Classical would be well served with the above combination.

- Try both alternatives and choose the one you prefer...you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. The R700s are very good, but so is the Proac/Sugden combination....you need to hear both (imo).

I don't say any of this to be awkward or pushy, but am genuinely trying to make sure you get the best possible sound for your money and your taste. Experimentation without set boundaries is the key

 

[rainsoothe]

I don't say any of this to be awkward or pushy, but am genuinely trying to make sure you get the best possible sound for your money and your taste. Experimentation without set boundaries is the key

Cno is right. First of all, as far as I understand, the Response D18 might just be a minor upgrade, whilst switching from ProJect to Sugden amplification will have a much bigger impact towards what you're trying to achieve. Or even better: get/audition both! Sugden A21SE + Response D18 sounds really good with the type of music you're listening to.

 

[CnoEvil]

I don't say any of this to be awkward or pushy, but am genuinely trying to make sure you get the best possible sound for your money and your taste. Experimentation without set boundaries is the key

Cno is right. First of all, as far as I understand, the Response D18 might just be a minor upgrade, whilst switching from ProJect to Sugden amplification will have a much bigger impact towards what you're trying to achieve. Or even better: get/audition both! Sugden A21SE + Response D18 sounds really good with the type of music you're listening to.

Thank you for making me sound less "nuts". *biggrin*

 

[hg]

How would subwoofers help my cause, if you could elaborate please?

Can you confirm that you are listening in a large 80 m^2 room? Do you listen at normal levels for music or relatively quiet levels?

Because your speakers are undersized for the room the midwoofer cones will have to deflect a large amount to produce reasonable SPL levels. Small deflections are normally fairly linear but large deflections are not. This causes distortion and particularly intermodulation distortion which is noticeable as a lack of clarity on large scale orchestral pieces where there is a lot going on. A subwoofer will remove from the main speakers the low frequencies causing the large deflections and much of the distortion. The subwoofer itself will have a large cone and so will only have to a deflect a small amount to generate the same SPL.

To see some measurements illustrating the benefits of a subwoofer improving midrange clarity click on the intermodulation distortion section here. The 3 way used in the example is almost certainly of higher performance than your speakers and so the benefits of using a subwoofer may well be greater for you than those shown.

 

[JoelSim]

You don't need subwoofers, ignore that.

Get a powerful amp and see how you go. Then maybe get some bigger speakers. Big room, you need power as well as subtlety.

 

[hg]

You don't need subwoofers, ignore that.

A simple of explanation was given of the benefits of using a subwoofer with supporting evidence from Neumann one of the most respected names in the audio world. What do you think is wrong with it?

 

[JoelSim]

A good pair of speakers don't need subwoofers. For example mine coupled with a good amp provide plenty of bass as well as the mid and top end that makes things sound beautiful. The OP has also explained that a lack of bass isn't the issue. I may add that I have no vested interest in this either.

 

[rainsoothe]

ok, somehow I missed the roomsize I don't think a Sugden A21SE would cut it, you might have to look at new or 2nd hand market for some class A amplification, like Accuphase. Other good partners for Proac should be Sugden (but the Masterclass one), Naim Supernait 2 upwards, XTZ A100D3 and perhaps Teddy Pardo, Simaudio Moon and tube stuff like Jadis Orchestra. If you go for the Proac Response D18, you can add Hegel and Bryston to the above list.

 

[hg]

A good pair of speakers don't need subwoofers. For example mine coupled with a good amp provide plenty of bass as well as the mid and top end that makes things sound beautiful. The OP has also explained that a lack of bass isn't the issue. I may add that I have no vested interest in this either.

Is that you did not read the post or that you did not understand it? There is no mention of bass extension, it was about "good and clear mid and highs" which the OP asked for and his present system will be lacking unless he only listens at quiet levels. A subwoofer will help address that.

 

[CnoEvil]

ok, somehow I missed the roomsize I don't think a Sugden A21SE would cut it, you might have to look at new or 2nd hand market for some class A amplification, like Accuphase. Other good partners for Proac should be Sugden (but the Masterclass one), Naim Supernait 2 upwards, XTZ A100D3 and perhaps Teddy Pardo, Simaudio Moon and tube stuff like Jadis Orchestra. If you go for the Proac Response D18, you can add Hegel and Bryston to the above list.

The Studio 140 has a Sensitivity of 91 dB, so I suspect the A21 SE would probably be fine....but would need tried.

 

[JoelSim]

A good pair of speakers don't need subwoofers. For example mine coupled with a good amp provide plenty of bass as well as the mid and top end that makes things sound beautiful. The OP has also explained that a lack of bass isn't the issue. I may add that I have no vested interest in this either.

Is that you did not read the post or that you did not understand it? There is no mention of bass extension, it was about "good and clear mid and highs" which the OP asked for and his present system will be lacking unless he only listens at quiet levels. A subwoofer will help address that.

I didn't misunderstand, no, I just feel that a good amp paired with a good pair of speakers really doesn't need a sub to muddy the waters. At quiet or loud levels.

 

[hg]

Is that you did not read the post or that you did not understand it? There is no mention of bass extension, it was about "good and clear mid and highs" which the OP asked for and his present system will be lacking unless he only listens at quiet levels. A subwoofer will help address that.

I didn't misunderstand, no, I just feel that a good amp paired with a good pair of speakers really doesn't need a sub to muddy the waters. At quiet or loud levels.

So it has got nothing to do with the physics, nothing to do with listening but simply what you feel. Fair enough, we all work things out in our own way. Perhaps the OP will feel the same.

 

[JoelSim]

Is that you did not read the post or that you did not understand it? There is no mention of bass extension, it was about "good and clear mid and highs" which the OP asked for and his present system will be lacking unless he only listens at quiet levels. A subwoofer will help address that.

I didn't misunderstand, no, I just feel that a good amp paired with a good pair of speakers really doesn't need a sub to muddy the waters. At quiet or loud levels.

So it has got nothing to do with the physics, nothing to do with listening but simply what you feel. Fair enough, we all work things out in our own way. Perhaps the OP will feel the same.

Mate, we all have different ways of looking at things as you say. I personally have never needed a sub to enjoy my music, and I see no reason to change those thoughts.

What is your sub covering up?

 

[hg]

What is your sub covering up?

I don't understand the question.

 

[CnoEvil]

Wheras I have sympathy for both HG's and Joel's approaches, I steered clear of the Sub approach for a few reasons:

- Unless you know exactly what you are doing and can integrate the sub very subtly/correctly, it can do more harm than good.

- The magic is in the mid range and the punch is in the upper bass, so this imo is the first thing to get right....especially with Classical Music and jazz. So get the overall sound of the system correct and then if there is still a lack of scale, a sub can be considered.

- Proacs were designed with Valves in mind, which is why they sound well with Class A (eg. Sugden).

- The Studio 140s have a given frequency response of 25 hz - 30 kHz (probably a little optimistic, but impressive nonetheless).

FWIW. I believe for a given individual, its about what is preferable, rather than what may be seen as "correct".

 

[Paristhea]

Thanks guys but I am happy with the Projects ,phono, preamp, power amp, plus i orered alreary a power supply from the same manufacturer. Did you hear the Projects at all?

I only want to change the speakers. There is too much bass and less detail in the mid and upper frequencies, i think. Unless the detail is there and it gets masked by the bass.

I will audition the KEF R700 as suggested, but i have a feeling the Proac Response D20R (replacement for the D18) will be the optimum balance. I heard the R700 before (xmas time) in the studio of my supplier and were ok, but too flat for my taste.

In my work place, which is Dubai i already have Naim UQ2 with Linn Majik 109, and i am incredibly happy with the sound i get. The living room there is far smaller than my home country, around 30 sqm, so the 109's are just right.

Does anyone have experience between the KEF R700 and the Proac D18?

Regards,

 

[hg]

I only want to change the speakers. There is too much bass and less detail in the mid and upper frequencies, i think. Unless the detail is there and it gets masked by the bass.

You have no interest in using reasonably sized drivers that do not audibly distort when used in a large room? Although I cannot be sure, I think from your post you can hear the distortion but reject the cause because you would like it to be something else. So it is something else. And that something else can be cured by purchasing the latest version of what you find attractive in hi-fi. More of the same. This is of course not the slightest problem in itself but I do find it surprising how weak the role of high fidelity sound seems to have become at least as expressed on this forum.

 

[EvPa]

What is your sub covering up?

I don't understand the question.

I think that he means the frequency cutoff or something like that.

For example, my subwoofer handles everything up to 85hz, then my speakers take over.

 

[hg]

I think that he means the frequency cutoff or something like that.

For example, my subwoofer handles everything up to 85hz, then my speakers take over.

Perhaps but that isn't what the question asks nor does it appear to follow on from what came before. It seems to be implying something along the lines of a subwoofer hiding something that would sound better coming from the mains. But without clarification that may be reading too much into it.

 

[CnoEvil]

I only want to change the speakers. There is too much bass and less detail in the mid and upper frequencies, i think. Unless the detail is there and it gets masked by the bass.

I think there is a strong likelihood you already had your mind made up before you asked the question, which is fine.

Your problem, as you have defined it, is probably a mixture of the way the speakers interact with the room and/or possibly your amps ability to control them....so good luck and do let us know how you get on.