New speakers for my hifi system

[Paristhea]

Ok, i got my dealer to provide me with a Naim amp in order to compare the exact same system with the Naim amp and see if there is a difference.

I assume you believe that it is the amp's ability to control the speakers, the root of my problem?

One more piece of information for your consideration. When i play vinyl the sound is much better than when i play ALAC or FLAC or AIFF music. Less difference when i play CD's. Still though, all sources result in more bass than i would prefer, which is why it makes me think it is the combination of my room/speakers the problem.

If i am correct, i consider the Response D20 because people say it has less bass (or some critisise it), which may be the ideal scenario fo my situation. Of course, i will not have the option of listening to the D20's before i buy them.

My dealer also told me yesterday that he will have D38 in stock in a month or so, second hand, for a good price. It may be worth waiting for them, not sure.

I am lost a bit

 

[CnoEvil]

I assume you believe that it is the amp's ability to control the speakers, the root of my problem?

It may be part of the problem, but I think the biggest part "may" be the interaction between the room and the speakers.

I'm not sure that Naim/Proac will sound as well as what you have, but it's worth trying to see what happens.

It's a bit of a minefield, where the dealer should be able to help.

 

[SteveR750]

The D18 (and D20R) arre not bass heavy speakers, the opposite in fact. Despoite the porting, they don't go that deep, which is good, as it's not overblown and out of control. I suspect the R700s are very different in this area. The D18s achilles heel is its tweeter, which gets a bit ragged / sibilant with good quality clean amps like the Supernait; but the midrange is excellent, lots of detail and good soundstanging. Personally I found the supertweeter a bit dull sounding, almost too far the opposite of the tweeter.

 

[hg]

It may be part of the problem, but I think the biggest part "may" be the interaction between the room and the speakers.

The OP has a lovely large room with nicely unequal dimensions. All untreated rooms are going to benefit from room treatment when it comes to controlling the lower room modes but large rooms do tend to help sound quality. Of course a strongly booming mode or two cannot be ruled out without knowing the details of the room.

I'm not sure that Naim/Proac will sound as well as what you have, but it's worth trying to see what happens.

The OP has ported 2 way speakers with small cones and so the port will have to work relatively high in frequency which will add a degree of looseness to the sound of low frequency transients. The inadequate maximum SPL for the size of room will mean transients are compressed at normal listening levels. Requiring the midwoofer to cover all frequencies below the tweeter means the midwoofer will be driving midrange port resonances and these may be contributing to a degree of midrange colouration.

2 way speakers with 6.5" cones are a good compromise for a modest budget in modestly sized rooms particularly if used with a subwoofer. At the OPs budget level there is no case for them on performance grounds but I guess the attractiveness of the narrow towers and the widespread use of subwoofers is why they find a market plus perhaps the modern rabbit hutch sized rooms we tend to live in although this does not apply to the OP.

It's a bit of a minefield, where the dealer should be able to help.

Most dealers are going to know the basics of what is required for high fidelity reproduction in the home but my guess is the OP, like he did in the openning post here, probably made it clear to the dealer what he wanted to purchase. All competent salesmen are going to be listening keenly for this sort of information and will adapt what they say accordingly given their job is to sell.

 

[SteveR750]

Big room = big speakers and big amp, surely?

I guess you could go sub route as HG suggests, or look for something that is designed to play louder without distortion. In my experience, the D18s are not a big room *loud* speaker, which is why I've ended up with some ATC, which are. They sound a whole lot smoother and more detailed too, at every volume level.

 

[rainsoothe]

Steve is describing the Response D18 the way I heard them as well. If you opt for them, or whatever Proac Response, it might be the right medicine. If it's not enough though, hg is also correct in saying that you might need some form of room treatment - check out companies like Gik Acoustics - room treatment WILL make a huge difference, bigger then switching any piece of kit.

 

[hg]

I am lost a bit

Why?

If you want newer Proacs then buy newer Proacs. At your price range they all look equally inappropriate for high fidelity sound in a large room and so make your choice based on what is important to you. If you want high fidelity sound in your large room then you will have to face upto not buying Proacs, or at least not only Proacs, and, perhaps more importantly, finding someone to talk to that knows the basics of high fidelity sound in homes (few in number on this forum) and will tell you honestly (be careful of people like dealers with some interests opposed to yours).

 

[SteveR750]

Steve is describing the Response D18 the way I heard them as well. If you opt for them, or whatever Proac Response, it might be the right medicine. If it's not enough though, hg is also correct in saying that you might need some form of room treatment - check out companies like Gik Acoustics - room treatment WILL make a huge difference, bigger then switching any piece of kit.

What he (or she?) said!

It's about time we started debating different cloth weaves and shapes of bass traps, instead of whether cables or the colour of electrons make any difference.

 

[Paristhea]

How about the new D20R, which i think it comes now with a ribbon twitter? In truth i dont know what is a ribbon twitter, but i understand it provides much clearer and crisper high frequency reproduction.

 

[SteveR750]

How about the new D20R, which i think it comes now with a ribbon twitter? In truth i dont know what is a ribbon twitter, but i understand it provides much clearer and crisper high frequency reproduction.

The treble of the D18R is much smoother than the standard D18, but I think it loses a bit of vibrancy to the music, when I listened to them, it all sounded a little dull. Could, and probably was the room that I was in though, plus the ATC amp driving them isn't the most wildly exciting either....

 

[Paristhea]

You were right about the room interaction witht he speakers.

The dealer came to my house this morning, also another audiophile friend, and they both listened to my compaint.

I should have mentioned before (in case i didnt) that the sound was quite good coming from the Linn Axis, it was the CD/DAC sound that presented most of the problems.

My first mistake was that i had placed the preamp and power amp on top of the Creek Cd/DAC, which obviously (i realised later) was affecting the quality of the sound coming from the CD and the Computer (a mac mini is connected to the Creek via USB).

Secondly and more importantly, they experimented with the positioning of the speakers in my room, and to my big surprise, once they were moved at least 1m away from the back wall as well as 1m away from the nearest back corner, the whole issue of the bass went away.

The dealer also changed the interconnects between the Creek Cd/DAC and the Project preamp from QED Reference XLR's into VDH "The Valley" RCA's, and woao, what a difference it made!!!

Summary: I am much happier now with the overall sound quality, and most of the extreme bass seems to have gone. I have rather good sound overall.

I ordered a linear power supply for the power amp from Project, once i get it i will see if there is any further improvement. If not, i may still consider the Proac Responce D20R.

I still feel i get standing waves in my room, occasionally, with some kind of music. Yes there is considerable improvement, but still not totally satisfied.

By the way, i forgot to mention that the dealer also suggested to replace the speaker spikes with Cerapug supports. I will try this tomorrow and let you know.

Regards,

 

[Paristhea]

Ok, i will discuss the prospect of a subwoofer with my dealer. It may be a correct approach, as it will stop the Proac's from porting a lot at the lower frequencies. i think hg you had suggested the subwoofers, is this correct?

I took a photo of the latest arrangement, but it seems i am not able to post it.

Actually, i do not want to spend on newer Proac's, i prefer not to spend more at all.

Regards,

 

[CnoEvil]

I'm glad things are starting to sort themselves out.

 

[hg]

My first mistake was that i had placed the preamp and power amp on top of the Creek Cd/DAC, which obviously (i realised later) was affecting the quality of the sound coming from the CD and the Computer (a mac mini is connected to the Creek via USB).

Why and what is obvious to you? It is not obvious to me

Secondly and more importantly, they experimented with the positioning of the speakers in my room, and to my big surprise, once they were moved at least 1m away from the back wall as well as 1m away from the nearest back corner, the whole issue of the bass went away.

This is a large and audible effect. Speakers designed to be used in the room should not be placed near walls because the bass that should radiate backwards (i.e. half of it) is forced to radiate forwards. Similarly near walls. Professonal speakers will usually have switches on the back to correct for this but home audio speakers rarely do.

The dealer also changed the interconnects between the Creek Cd/DAC and the Project preamp from QED Reference XLR's into VDH "The Valley" RCA's, and woao, what a difference it made!!!

Your dealer recommended £300 interconnects to replace your £100 interconnects? Or did you or your friend?

By the way, i forgot to mention that the dealer also suggested to replace the speaker spikes with Cerapug supports. I will try this tomorrow and let you know.

These are £800 feet for your speakers?

 

[hg]

Ok, i will discuss the prospect of a subwoofer with my dealer. It may be a correct approach, as it will stop the Proac's from porting a lot at the lower frequencies. i think hg you had suggested the subwoofers, is this correct?

That was when I thought you had an interest in high fidelity sound. If your preference is for expensive cables, expensive speaker feet and rearranging the stacking of the hardware I am not sure what I might have to say about the physics of sound will be of much relevance. Which is not a problem, far from it, it is rather interesting.

What do you want subwoofers to do?

 

[SteveR750]

More to the point, without an active crossover how is the sub going to reduce the bass loading on the speakers?

 

[hg]

More to the point, without an active crossover how is the sub going to reduce the bass loading on the speakers?

The signal first goes to the sub which filters off the bass and then back to the amplifier to drive the main speakers without the bass.

 

[SteveR750]

More to the point, without an active crossover how is the sub going to reduce the bass loading on the speakers?

The signal first goes to the sub which filters off the bass and then back to the amplifier to drive the main speakers without the bass.

So there's a x over in the sub, and the speakers are connected to the sub output?

 

[hg]

So there's a x over in the sub, and the speakers are connected to the sub output?

See block diagram at the bottom of the page. With an AV receiver the filtering is done by the receiver and so there is no need for the return signal. If the bass wasn't filtered from the mains then a major benefit of using a subwoofer would be lost. Which strikes me as a reason for audiophiles not to do it. Do some audiophile setups send the full signal to the mains when using subwoofers?

PS I have had a look at a couple of manuals for cheaper home audio subwoofers and they did not have a filtered output for the main speakers. No problem for AV receivers but I am not sure how you would get them to work with a normal stereo setup. Anyone?

 

[JoelSim]

I am lost a bit

Why?

If you want newer Proacs then buy newer Proacs. At your price range they all look equally inappropriate for high fidelity sound in a large room and so make your choice based on what is important to you. If you want high fidelity sound in your large room then you will have to face upto not buying Proacs, or at least not only Proacs, and, perhaps more importantly, finding someone to talk to that knows the basics of high fidelity sound in homes (few in number on this forum) and will tell you honestly (be careful of people like dealers with some interests opposed to yours).

I hope that last comment isn't a dig at me. If you look at MTYE's product range you will see I have no vested interest in what the OP purchases, simply a couple of decades of listening to hifi. I feel very happy in myself to suggest things based on sound quality, and in my particular area I suggest Beyerdynamic more often than not and funnily enough that is the one brand with lower margins than everything else.

 

[hg]

I hope that last comment isn't a dig at me. If you look at MTYE's product range you will see I have no vested interest in what the OP purchases, simply a couple of decades of listening to hifi.

It isn't a dig at anyone but a simple statement of fact. A salesman has some interests that are in conflict with those of a buyer which means that his knowledge is not always openly shared with the buyer. We can see an example of that a few posts above where the OP has purchased a ludicrously expensive line level cable and is considering insanely priced feet for his speakers. Should the dealer be open and share with the OP what he knows about such high margin products or should he sell them to the OP if the OP wants them?

 

[davedotco]

There is two schools of thought here, some subwoofers, increasingly few these days, do filter the low bass from the main speakers, most do not. Everyone has different views on whether the main speaker should be allowed to run full range or not, and frankly it probably varies from set-up to set-up.

Filtering the deep bass from the main speakers will increase their power handling substantially, which is a distinct advantage in some setups, but a lot of designers feel that using the speakers full range goves a more natural transition.

This is different from the way that a/v recievers handle things and refers to speaker/sub combinations driven by conventional two channel amplifiers.

 

[JoelSim]

I hope that last comment isn't a dig at me. If you look at MTYE's product range you will see I have no vested interest in what the OP purchases, simply a couple of decades of listening to hifi.

It isn't a dig at anyone but a simple statement of fact. A salesman has some interests that are in conflict with those of a buyer which means that his knowledge is not always openly shared with the buyer. We can see an example of that a few posts above where the OP has purchased a ludicrously expensive line level cable and is considering insanely priced feet for his speakers. Should the dealer be open and share with the OP what he knows about such high margin products or should he sell them to the OP if the OP wants them?

Clearly there is a time and a place and a system for insanely priced feet. This isn't it in my opinion, agreed. With regard to high margin, that may be the case for the manufacturer but not the dealer.

 

[hg]

With regard to high margin, that may be the case for the manufacturer but not the dealer.

That certainly wasn't the case a few years ago. It was acknowledged that a dealer would often make more on the high margin accessories like cables than on the main products. Have things changed recently in that the margins on the main products have increased?

 

[hg]

Filtering the deep bass from the main speakers will increase their power handling substantially, which is a distinct advantage in some setups, but a lot of designers feel that using the speakers full range goves a more natural transition.

I continue to be surprised by what has happened to home audio. It had never occurred to me until a few minutes ago that subwoofers might be run without filtering but I guess it should have done. We don't want none of that high fidelity nonsense.