New amplifier: my long journey...

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acalex

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CnoEvil said:
acalex said:
I think it is impossible indeed to judge till all the cables are in our systems as it will be the only valid test. All we did was making a "technical table" based on what was available in the shop...in a syste, which was completely unknown with different music. But the traits of cables were pretty clear. I think the Cardas might work indeed very well with Rob's system.

I also wasn't expecting the reaction of the Kimber as Rob didn't seem to complain to much about them when connected to his system. But there, when we increased the volume, the mids were just too high and not enjoyable anymore...we had to decrease the volume quickly. The Atlas is probably the fastes cable we have tried...

I would ask you not to rule out Cardas until you hear the Clear Light, and possibly the GRs (and maybe the GCs in Robs system)...the CL really are supposed to be much faster and more neutral.

I find your testing very helpful in getting an idea as to how such a wide variety of excellent brands sound, when compared against each other, with both Valve and SS.......you don't see this very often, if ever.

Keep it up chaps......will performance follow price?........

Just add a quick listen to the Atlas now in my system...first impression compared to the Graphite is a thinner sound, a bit lighter. Don't seem as detailed as the TQ. It is a very fast cable...at a first not critical and quick analysis I would say the graphite still are a step up. Probably not as fast as the Atlas but not very far. On the other way the Graphite gives a bigger sound, more detailed and better separation.

But I am very tired today...I need to rest and re-listen tomorrow with a fresh head

Pity the graphite don't look so well made as all the competitors...and for a cable costing >2500 euro this is a bit of a disappointment. My gf do not like them at all :doh:
 

CnoEvil

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acalex said:
But I am very tired today...I need to rest and re-listen tomorrow with a fresh head

This is essential, as you can not really make a valid assessment when knackered.......speak to you tomorrow, my friend.
 

acalex

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CnoEvil said:
acalex said:
But I am very tired today...I need to rest and re-listen tomorrow with a fresh head

This is essential, as you can not really make a valid assessment when knackered.......speak to you tomorrow, my friend.

Yes...definitely not the right time. Everything sounds bad...not a good moment. It's time to switch the system off and maybe watch a movie in bed :shifty:

Speak to you tomorrow! :)
 

acalex

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CnoEvil said:
acalex said:
I think it is impossible indeed to judge till all the cables are in our systems as it will be the only valid test. All we did was making a "technical table" based on what was available in the shop...in a syste, which was completely unknown with different music. But the traits of cables were pretty clear. I think the Cardas might work indeed very well with Rob's system.

I also wasn't expecting the reaction of the Kimber as Rob didn't seem to complain to much about them when connected to his system. But there, when we increased the volume, the mids were just too high and not enjoyable anymore...we had to decrease the volume quickly. The Atlas is probably the fastes cable we have tried...

I would ask you not to rule out Cardas until you hear the Clear Light, and possibly the GRs (and maybe the GCs in Robs system)...the CL really are supposed to be much faster and more neutral.

I find your testing very helpful in getting an idea as to how such a wide variety of excellent brands sound, when compared against each other, with both Valve and SS.......you don't see this very often, if ever.

Keep it up chaps......will performance follow price?........

The Kimber were the most espensive of the lot I think... :?
 

CnoEvil

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Neuphonix said:
My Primo & 35P both plug directly into the wall socket on a dedicated circuit.

All my other gear hangs of another dedicated circuit with a four way wall outlet. The AV reciever & TV plug directly into this. I then have a 10way power rail with inbuilt 10amp breaker which my subs & all other source / periphery items plug into. This is a rail meant to be installed in a data cabinet. I haven't open this particular one but have opened other ones through work. Pretty sure that the are wired in daisy chain configuration, so the outlet are not isolated from each other.

I am considering buying one of these Thor PS10 power station:

http://thortechnologies.com.au/products/product/ps10-smart-power-station

It is a conditioner so recent discussion has made me hold off for the time being. I'd say my dealer would let me have one for a demo if I asked him. To be honest I don't really expect it to make much different to the SQ, I'm looking at it from a protection / clean power perspective.

Still waiting on my leads for the crossover to arrive. Was hoping to have them for this weekend to experiment with, but apparently they are arring on Tuesday.

Your 35P is probably too much for most, but the best conditioners / re-generators / balanced transformers, and will be best plugged into the wall with Furutech sockets.

If possible, use star wired blocks, as you are taking so much trouble over everything else.

Try to hire a mains sniffer to check how bad your mains is......but a dedicated circuit is one of the best upgrades you can make, especially along with an upgraded socket.

As for Chamber music, Mozart and Haydn are hard to beat.....start a thread on it, and you will get all sorts of good suggestions from the likes of Mathew Piano. I will have a burrow about and see what I come up with.

Thank you for the kind remarks about my health

Cno
 

acalex

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CnoEvil said:
acalex said:
Speak to you tomorrow! :)

:poke:

I am going through a bit of a crisis as I don't understand anymore what is doing what in the system...I think I will just take a rest, unpuig everything and restart from scratch with basic power cables, basic power strip and rebuild from there based on the material I have available.

Following Rob's advise I will make a small comparative table whenever I do a change to assess the improvement (if existing) it brings to the lot. I would also split into analog/digital .

I will start with the analog by replugging everyhing I have (original power cables) in my original cheap power block. Then I will be swapping one component at the time and evaluate. This is the only way to go ahead and re-gain objectivity a little bit...what do you think?
 

Macspur

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acalex said:
CnoEvil said:
acalex said:
Speak to you tomorrow! :)

:poke:

I am going through a bit of a crisis as I don't understand anymore what is doing what in the system...I think I will just take a rest, unpuig everything and restart from scratch with basic power cables, basic power strip and rebuild from there based on the material I have available.

Following Rob's advise I will make a small comparative table whenever I do a change to assess the improvement (if existing) it brings to the lot. I would also split into analog/digital .

I will start with the analog by replugging everyhing I have (original power cables) in my original cheap power block. Then I will be swapping one component at the time and evaluate. This is the only way to go ahead and re-gain objectivity a little bit...what do you think?

Hi Alex,

I can fully empathize with you, being on a similar quest, but not quite on the same level.

Over the weekend I went back to basics with original jumpers and power chords, leaving the Siltechs in. Then one by one I changed everything, then done the same in reverse going back to the originals.

In the end I came to the conclusion jumpers and ic's definitely didn't need changing and the Cardas Golden ref PC definitely does improve SQ, but still not sure if it's enough to justify the expense.

The problem I have is, until I tame this slight boom issue, I dont' think I will really hear the true benefit from a change in any cable.

Tony from Coherent Systems has offered, for no charge, to come to my house and assess the situation for himself

In the mean time, Audio Emotion have recommend some Vertex Moncayo which they believe may help control the base, so I will probably take them up on the offer of a home demo.

Like Cno says Alex, this should be a fun excersise and I know all too well how easy it is to get so involved in trying to find that optimum sound you feel your system can achieve, that it ends up putting you off doing what, at the end of the day, what we all want to do and that is just listen to music.

Good luck and take it easy.

Mac
 

CnoEvil

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Macspur said:
Over the weekend I went back to basics with original jumpers and power chords, leaving the Siltechs in. Then one by one I changed everything, then done the same in reverse going back to the originals.

In the end I came to the conclusion jumpers and ic's definitely didn't need changing and the Cardas Golden ref PC definitely does improve SQ, but still not sure if it's enough to justify the expense.

My poor old brain gets confused these days.....were you to try Cards GR s/c, and was it these or Siltech that didn't make enough difference?

Macspur said:
Tony from Coherent Systems has offered, for no charge, to come to my house and assess the situation for himself

Mac

I would take him up on his offer......I can't help feeling you can get a lot closer to your ideal.
 

Macspur

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CnoEvil said:
Macspur said:
Over the weekend I went back to basics with original jumpers and power chords, leaving the Siltechs in. Then one by one I changed everything, then done the same in reverse going back to the originals.

In the end I came to the conclusion jumpers and ic's definitely didn't need changing and the Cardas Golden ref PC definitely does improve SQ, but still not sure if it's enough to justify the expense.

My poor old brain gets confused these days.....were you to try Cards GR s/c, and was it these or Siltech that didn't make enough difference?

Macspur said:
Tony from Coherent Systems has offered, for no charge, to come to my house and assess the situation for himself

Mac

I would take him up on his offer......I can't help feeling you can get a lot closer to your ideal.

Cno,

No, Other than the Siltech 550L, I haven't tried any other S/C's lately. It's the Golden Ref PC and Tony also asked me to try some of their own XLR's which are apparently rated better than my new Siltech 330I.

At the same time he gave me some of their own brand jumpers and he find the fact that I could not hear any sonic improvement with them the most surprising.

I bit his hand off at the offer of a home visit, just waiting for confirmation of a date now.

Gary from AE also sent me this link

http://www.hifi-ssc.de/Netpoint_100_200_300.htm

Unfortunately though, my screenreader can't read the website for some reason.

Mac
 

acalex

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Thanks a lot for your posts guys, really appreciate and also thanks to Rob who supported me over Skype today.

Yes I went over a crisis and nothing was sounding good anymore...but as Cno correctly said better now than after where money have left already...as so far nothing has been bought yet!

Cno, your post was like you were reading my mind as this is exactly what I have been starting to do...to draw an excel table with possible configuration for speaker cables, with impression and scoring in the end considering the price and the VFM :)

Mac, thanks for the advice. I think this is exactly what I will do, I will start with all basic stuff (i/c, power cable, power strip) and then add one piece at the time and write down my impressions.

I am also feeling kind of frustrated that our dealer does not have the time to go through this process with us as it is very busy with work all the time. Don't get me wrong, is a great guy and he's the person I need to thank for everything but I just feel I would need a litle bit more of support now instead of just giving away things to try. Which is absolutely great, but sitting also and listening together trying to find solutions for the few things I still do not I think it's another story....and I feel I would need this now.

I like a rich and detailed presentation, quite emotional and warm. I like to sit back and enjoy the music which gets my foot tapping. I am not looking for the most precise and natural representation of the sound. But I don't dislike sometimes to focus a little bit on how nice an acousti guitar sounds where you can actually feel the end sliding to make the chords...not sure I explained myself.

For now the best feeling I have got was when I used the graphite as the sound was still very very musical but I could also appreciate the detail of the single instrument...
 

CnoEvil

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Macspur said:
Cno,

No, Other than the Siltech 550L, I haven't tried any other S/C's lately. It's the Golden Ref PC and Tony also asked me to try some of their own XLR's which are apparently rated better than my new Siltech 330I.

At the same time he gave me some of their own brand jumpers and he find the fact that I could not hear any sonic improvement with them the most surprising.

I bit his hand off at the offer of a home visit, just waiting for confirmation of a date now.

Gary from AE also sent me this link

http://www.hifi-ssc.de/Netpoint_100_200_300.htm

Unfortunately though, my screenreader can't read the website for some reason.

Mac

Mac, your screen reader would need to be able to translate from Dutch to make sense of it.

If you like what the Cardas P/C does, keep your eye out for the GR speaker cables and interconnect (or even Clear Light).

Get Tony to put some Track Audio stands in his boot when he visits! :shifty:
 

CnoEvil

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acalex said:
I am also feeling kind of frustrated that our dealer does not have the time to go through this process with us as it is very busy with work all the time. Don't get me wrong, is a great guy and he's the person I need to thank for everything but I just feel I would need a litle bit more of support now instead of just giving away things to try. Which is absolutely great, but sitting also and listening together trying to find solutions for the few things I still do not I think it's another story....and I feel I would need this now.

I understand your frustration, but your dealer has been remarkably helpful and flexible (more so than most). Although you are totally caught up in your decision, he has other customers to keep happy and a business to keep afloat (that's not a dig). There is also the fact that he may not want to influence your decision too much, so is letting you work through it for yourself.

acalex said:
I like a rich and detailed presentation, quite emotional and warm. I like to sit back and enjoy the music which gets my foot tapping. I am not looking for the most precise and natural representation of the sound. But I don't dislike sometimes to focus a little bit on how nice an acousti guitar sounds where you can actually feel the end sliding to make the chords...not sure I explained myself.

This is pretty much what has driven your decision making all along. I think that you quite enjoy having incredible detail of the TQ, but are worried that it is not at the expensive of emotion and musicality in the long term. Nb.Make sure you dig out your less good recordings as well.

The strong suggestions I have been making recently has had this very much in mind (above, you have just described the Cardas sound, it's just you've heard the wrong model) - so apologies if I have come across as pushy.

Acalex said:
For now the best feeling I have got was when I used the graphite as the sound was still very very musical but I could also appreciate the detail of the single instrument...

This sounds like your "Reference Cable" to judge the others against, unless of course you find better. :shifty:

Remember, at the end of the day, you can get some Linn Silvers and Ah s/c and have a good sound...so nothing to stress about.
 

CnoEvil

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acalex said:
I am going through a bit of a crisis as I don't understand anymore what is doing what in the system...I think I will just take a rest, unpuig everything and restart from scratch with basic power cables, basic power strip and rebuild from there based on the material I have available.

Following Rob's advise I will make a small comparative table whenever I do a change to assess the improvement (if existing) it brings to the lot. I would also split into analog/digital .

I will start with the analog by replugging everyhing I have (original power cables) in my original cheap power block. Then I will be swapping one component at the time and evaluate. This is the only way to go ahead and re-gain objectivity a little bit...what do you think?

Alex, I would look at it like this - you are better to go through the crisis before you spend any money.....so I think this is a good thing, as it will make you step back and do a proper measured assessment.

You have listened to so many outstanding cables ( in a few different systems), that it is enough to put anyone's head in a spin. It is very easy to get caught up in it all, and be swept away on a tide of enthusiasm. This is where you and Rob need to work as a team and keep each other grounded, as it is often easier to keep cool and logical when advising someone else (as the emotive element is removed).

Maybe it would make sense for you to get your head round exactly what you are actually looking for, which is easier now that you have heard what strengths different cables can bring to the table.....or indeed, what you are not looking for. For me, the over-riding priority is retaining the emotion, naturalness and enjoyment in the music, in such a way that I want to listen more, rather than less (due to an off-putting presentation).

I found this in Cardas over any other brand (hence why I keep bringing it up). It is not an instantly showy cable, but one that takes a while to fully appreciate its talent (a bit like Spendor speakers).

At the very start of this, I suggested keeping a detailed log on each cable (including its price).....make a list of the important areas (bass, detail, soundstage, treble etc etc), and mark each cable against it, along with a few words describing it's strengths and weaknesses.

In each of your systems, find the very best cable (regardless of cost) to become the Reference Standard. Your goal is then to get as close to this and remain in budget - the reference cable will also remain a consistent benchmark, which can be referred back to if necessary.

Don't forget that you can mix and match brands, as well as within brands....often putting a better quality i/c with lesser quality s/c. Also, as you have seen, never use a more expensive power cord than you really need.

This reference cable is given a performance score of 100% (it's VFM rating may be a lot less), and other cables are marked as a percentage of this. There will then be a VFM score based on price vs performance.

IMO. Cables (just like other bits of hifi) that can sound detailed and dramatic in a quick back to back test, can then become wearing after a few months.

You are right to go back to the "original" and see what the sound is like. If you still think there is merit in changing, do your assessment and whittle your selection down to a manageable amount (2 or 3), based on your documented results.

Remember, this should be a fun process and can remain so, up until you spend money..........the only way you can make sense of so many products, is to know exactly what traits you are looking for; rejecting those that are too expensive and don't match up; and being methodical in your approach while keeping detailed records.

Sorry if I am stating the obvious, but when one goes into a tail spin, common sense can take a back seat.
 

acalex

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CnoEvil said:
acalex said:
I am also feeling kind of frustrated that our dealer does not have the time to go through this process with us as it is very busy with work all the time. Don't get me wrong, is a great guy and he's the person I need to thank for everything but I just feel I would need a litle bit more of support now instead of just giving away things to try. Which is absolutely great, but sitting also and listening together trying to find solutions for the few things I still do not I think it's another story....and I feel I would need this now.

I understand your frustration, but your dealer has been remarkably helpful and flexible (more so than most). Although you are totally caught up in your decision, he has other customers to keep happy and a business to keep afloat (that's not a dig). There is also the fact that he may not want to influence your decision too much, so is letting you work through it for yourself.

acalex said:
I like a rich and detailed presentation, quite emotional and warm. I like to sit back and enjoy the music which gets my foot tapping. I am not looking for the most precise and natural representation of the sound. But I don't dislike sometimes to focus a little bit on how nice an acousti guitar sounds where you can actually feel the end sliding to make the chords...not sure I explained myself.

This is pretty much what has driven your decision making all along. I think that you quite enjoy having incredible detail of the TQ, but are worried that it is not at the expensive of emotion and musicality in the long term. Nb.Make sure you dig out your less good recordings as well.

The strong suggestions I have been making recently has had this very much in mind (above, you have just described the Cardas sound, it's just you've heard the wrong model) - so apologies if I have come across as pushy.

Acalex said:
For now the best feeling I have got was when I used the graphite as the sound was still very very musical but I could also appreciate the detail of the single instrument...

This sounds like your "Reference Cable" to judge the others against, unless of course you find better. :shifty:

Remember, at the end of the day, you can get some Linn Silvers and Ah s/c and have a good sound...so nothing to stress about.

Yes, don't get me wrong...I will be eternelly greatful to him for letting me find out this great and amazing sound/system...true he's also has a business to keeo going and he's very busy!

I guess I need to sort out this by myself with a bit of rational thinking and time!

Thanks for advices
 

CnoEvil

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acalex said:
Yes, don't get me wrong...I will be eternelly greatful to him for letting me find out this great and amazing sound/system...true he's also has a business to keeo going and he's very busy!

I guess I need to sort out this by myself with a bit of rational thinking and time!

Thanks for advices

You just went into a speed wobble due to information overload and brain fatigue. Just like the rest of your system, I am quite sure you will get it figured.
 

acalex

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Started again from scratch... Original power cables and ic, only speaker cable new. Trying the purist audio cables now...willlug the graphite tomorrow or Thursday
 

CnoEvil

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acalex said:
Started again from scratch... Original power cables and ic, only speaker cable new. Trying the purist audio cables now...willlug the graphite tomorrow or Thursday

Would you really miss the "good" cables, if it was left like this?
 

Ben123

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cnoEVIL you just had....wait for it.....the 666th post....SCARY! haha :p

sorry i appreciate that doesnt contribute to this thread :grin:
 

CnoEvil

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Ben123 said:
cnoEVIL you just had....wait for it.....the 666th post....SCARY! haha :p

sorry i appreciate that doesnt contribute to this thread :grin:

Neither will it contribute to a good night's sleep - thx for pointing it out! ;)
 

lindsayt

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Acalex, would you like to do a quick recap of exactly what equipment you're using, which aspects of your system you're not happy with and on which recordings?
 

acalex

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CnoEvil said:
acalex said:
Started again from scratch... Original power cables and ic, only speaker cable new. Trying the purist audio cables now...willlug the graphite tomorrow or Thursday

Would you really miss the "good" cables, if it was left like this?

i will write a quick review of this setup a bit later. It does sound good...but at my ears I am still missing something I have already experienced. As you correctly said once, Cno, once you try it is difficult to walk away. I will report more later.

thanks for being with me on this one also ;)
 

CnoEvil

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acalex said:
i will write a quick review of this setup a bit later. It does sound good...but at my ears I am still missing something I have already experienced. As you correctly said once, Cno, once you try it is difficult to walk away. I will report more later.

thanks for being with me on this one also ;)

I have been there, my friend.

If you had put the system back to basics and said to yourself, "do you know what, I enjoy this every bit as much", then that is your cue to walk away from the whole thing for now.

On the other hand, if you say "the life and soul have evaporated from the music", then it down to getting it back without breaking the bank.

Aside from acoustics, never underestimate the effect of getting the mains power right....that is good sockets / connections / cables / separate circuits etc. This is paying attention to the start of the chain, because anything lost here can never be regained.

Given the cost difference between i/c and s/c, it can make sense to go for the better i/c, as it preserves the signal....which is the chain thing again.

When all the dust in your brain has settled, I believe you will know the right cable when you hear it.....or it could work the other way round ie. That there is one cable that you just miss too much when it is removed.

The main thing is that music becomes important again and you go back to enjoying the hunt.
 

acalex

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CnoEvil said:
acalex said:
i will write a quick review of this setup a bit later. It does sound good...but at my ears I am still missing something I have already experienced. As you correctly said once, Cno, once you try it is difficult to walk away. I will report more later.

thanks for being with me on this one also ;)

I have been there, my friend.

If you had put the system back to basics and said to yourself, "do you know what, I enjoy this every bit as much", then that is your cue to walk away from the whole thing for now.

On the other hand, if you say "the life and soul have evaporated from the music", then it down to getting it back without breaking the bank.

Aside from acoustics, never underestimate the effect of getting the mains power right....that is good sockets / connections / cables / separate circuits etc. This is paying attention to the start of the chain, because anything lost here can never be regained.

Given the cost difference between i/c and s/c, it can make sense to go for the better i/c, as it preserves the signal....which is the chain thing again.

When all the dust in your brain has settled, I believe you will know the right cable when you hear it.....or it could work the other way round ie. That there is one cable that you just miss too much when it is removed.

The main thing is that music becomes important again and you go back to enjoying the hunt.

Well, put like that I agree with you on any single bit. The system is the basic one (with whatever I already own and not need to spend more) + new cables as wasn't happy with the cables I was given at the beginning when speakers were delivered.

Now I am pretty much happy with the presentation, these cables I have now on are very musical (they keep my foot tapping) and very well balanced. So far did not hear any boom which is a nice thing. They are not as detailed as the TQ and in a few cases I miss that (don't know if you remember but once with Rob we tried the Primare and on a few songs I actually liked the presentation of the Primare over anything else we were trying and you suggested that maybe sometimes you prefer a more detailed presentation...and I think you were damn right :D).

Soundstage is nice but not as big as I was used with TQ and the mids (voice) are not as "out" as I like. But this is something I already solved by swapping the basic power cable of phonoamp with the Siltech. Will see if this happens again...I will make the test with my GF when I change it
 

acalex

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In the meantime I managed to get a great deal on some 2x2mt TQ Graphite brand new (or some 2x3mt ex demo)...to a level which I would be comoftable spending if I decided they do remain my reference cable! This gave me quite some peace of mind....
 

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