NaimUniti on the BBC....

[Anonymous]

chebby:
Ashley James:The problem is that prices of consumer and pro audio electronics have fallen as the technology and performance has improved while hi fi, which is lower technology and should have done the same, hasn't. It has become far to expensive and it is trailing behind everything else technically as the presenter on the TV program indicated.

IMHO, much of the hi fi industry has to a large extent become specialised and elitist and it hasn't been rational. The result is that is has become marginalised. What is needed is innovative, exciting and new technology at real world prices and not arguments about the superiority of turntables or whatever and I don't see it happening.

Ash

Ashley, I was rather hoping for something more upbeat in the nature of suggestions from those in the industry (like yourself) as to how you can make high quality sound an excting and aspirational thing that makes people want to spend their money on it.

Carping about other sectors of the same industry (and their approach to marketing high quality audio) is not a suggestion or a solution. Your bottom line depends on you getting the public enthused about your solutions and getting as many ordinary people interested in getting high-quality sound from the multitude of sources on offer, not bothering about the perceived deficiencies of your competitiors surely?

Hs anyone from the world of manufacturers, dealers, marketing, recording, media etc got anything unilaterally positive to offer as a solution to the problem of getting the public (us the consumer) interested in high quality music replay?

Chebby

I think you're starting from the wrong premise. Hi fi people like you believe they are are getting better sound, but the rest of the world isn't convinced. Why they are not convinced is that some PMPs with good headphones sound much better than specialist hi fi and that's playing MP3s or AACs that hi fi types have been so rude about. And there are lots of other similar examples.

If hi fi specialist want to be part of the mainstream they need to come down off their high horse and make products for real wold prices that deliver. But they don't Chebby do they, instead they prefer to be elitist and look down their noses at everything that isn't "hi end" and it isn't working.

The first step to resolving these issues is facing up to the problems and addressing them but as I said before, for as long as it lasts, for some dealers, it's a cash cow and not something they will give up easily.

Ash

 

[Anonymous]

I think that you're flogging a dead horse here, Hi Fi will never become mass market.

Only enthusiasts like ourselves will require the best that we can afford in musical reproduction, most will be happy to be satisfied with the mediocre just as in photography everyone uses a camera but very few have Canon or Nikon SLRs...........

 

[Anonymous]

MENISCUS:
I think that you're flogging a dead horse here, Hi Fi will never become mass market.

Only enthusiasts like ourselves will require the best that we can afford in musical reproduction, most will be happy to be satisfied with the mediocre just as in photography everyone uses a camera but very few have Canon or Nikon SLRs...........

I don't agree! The fact is that much of the mass market or what is sometimes described as mid fi has probably overtaken the hi end in performance for a fraction of the price. Cambridge Audio being a classic example in the UK, but in the USA where consumers have far more spending money there is far greater choice of better and cheaper gear.

I think the point is that "hi enders" are deluding themselves and talking condescendingly about excellent but less expensive products. Not everyone, but large numbers of people do care a great deal about sound quality, but not if it costs daft prices, doesn't appear to be better and is sold by snobs. For that is how it is seen.

Ash

 

[Anonymous]

Interesting discussion going on here so I thought I'd add some of my opinions/thoughts.

Firstly I have wondered about the future of Hi-Fi hardware, and personally I don't think that I can see myself ever buying anything but an amp/speakers or DAC in the future.

As the boundaries blur between what TV/HI-Fi/Computers are, perhaps no one will need anything else (i.e. CDP, record deck, HD player etc etc). I hope in a couple of years to have a high end amp with built in DAC, and speakers, and that's it for me.

I think that what Naim are doind with the HDX and the Uniti is great, and it shows that hi-fi can take some of the computers tasks on, though I do think that the two units in question really could be combined to make one and for less money. I suppose it's tradition to sell a box for every single operation, but I really don't think that people are going to buy into that for much longer.

If I had to compare the situation of technology at the moment, I would say this: I am an interior designer & architect. This is my chosen discipline, though in what I do I have to tackle web design, illustration, video editing etc etc as well as CAD. So what I do has become multi-disciplinary, just like the tech industry.

PS3, XBOX & Computers, all want you to play music watch videos etc from their one system. I haven't seen one hi-fi component that can rival any multimedia unit for ease of use (even for just music), so as long as hi-fi is only about sound (and excludes at large user interface and the use of screens & moniters for display), then the hi-fi indutsry is confined to basically amp & speakers, and maybe DAC.

Why can't you load your whole library onto your amp, plug it into a tv and view/play all your music? The hi-fi industry needs to take back some of the usability from the computer industry, and not for a ridiculous prices either.

I hope that makes sense to you, never been great explaining in only text form, that's why I create!

 

[Anonymous]

Its beyond me why anyone with a computer would buy a cd player. I have seen some people on here and other forums get all nostalgic for cd players and claim things about sound quality inherent in the format as if where the zeros and ones are stored makes any difference (except for transports being able to degrade it).

I expect the market in DACs and amplifiers with DACs fitted will get bigger.

I'm not sure its the job of Hifi enthusiasts to market the products they're buying but sometimes the snobishness is a little tiring. I joined the Linn forum to get advise for setting up an arm on my Basik and while a few people were helpful most of what I got was a long stream of orders that anything less than an LP12 was unlistenable to.

A lot of people dont even know about the existence of seperates systems and a lot of people wouldn't get them past er'indoors they're so ugly and space consuming.

If there's one thing I detest about some Hifi enthusiasts its the assumption by some that they are enjoying their music more than other people. I enjoyed music just as much listening to it on a tape walkman as I do now.

 

[chebby]

Ashley James:Hi fi people like you believe they are are getting better sound, but the rest of the world isn't convinced. Why they are not convinced is that some PMPs with good headphones sound much better than specialist hi fi and that's playing MP3s or AACs that hi fi types have been so rude about. And there are lots of other similar examples.

If hi fi specialist want to be part of the mainstream they need to come down off their high horse and make products for real wold prices that deliver. But they don't Chebby do they, instead they prefer to be elitist and look down their noses at everything that isn't "hi end" and it isn't working.

Anything positive and constructive yet that you can offer - as a manufacturer - without criticising other manufacturers, dealers, and exisiting hifi users?

How can more of the public be engaged and excited about making the most of their various audio sources? (Yes I am talking about AAC, MP3 and television/DVD/Blu-ray, Freeview radio, iPods and computer based music + internet radio and BBC iPlayer as well.)

Maybe this IS the problem. Maybe the industry, as typified by Ashleys comments, does prefer to sit there in some incestuous little 'bubble' and backbite at each other and the dealers (and their potential customers) rather than expend energy and imagination getting the public £ spent on hearing their music as they have never heard it before.

 

[professorhat]

Catcher:Its beyond me why anyone with a computer would buy a cd player. I have seen some people on here and other forums get all nostalgic for cd players and claim things about sound quality inherent in the format as if where the zeros and ones are stored makes any difference (except for transports being able to degrade it).

I suspect it's beyond some others here why someone would switch from their CD player to a computer (I can think of one person very clearly, he may be along later!). Horses for courses isn't it - no one's wrong, no one's right, just use whatever you prefer.

Catcher:If there's one thing I detest about some Hifi enthusiasts its the assumption by some that they are enjoying their music more than other people. I enjoyed music just as much listening to it on a tape walkman as I do now.ÿ

Gotta agree with you there, though I personally enjoy music in my office more since I traded in my Audioengine A2s for the Epoz Akitmates. But that's my personal preference, I wouldn't force that view on others.

 

[basshead]

guess what i bought yesterday? a sony mini system from argos, cost £99. it playes cd's and has radio (analoge and digital). it is sat on my kitchen shelf so i (and my housemates) can enjoy music while cooking. it does everything i need it to for less than 100quid. what would that buy in a hi-fi shop? some cables?. i think this is the attitude most people take, music is usually played in the bakground while they do other things. while the price of hi-fi is so high then it will be of no intrest to most people. had i spent 5 times the money would i get 5 times the enjoyment? nope.

 

[alanalan]

Makes perfect sense to me!We have to move towards accessible, usable well thought out products. Many manufacturers have started but we're far from there yet.

I sometimes suspect there is an element in hifi fanatics whereby they don't want a nice interface or a stylish design. Some people want to be able to say "I bought it despite it looking like a 1980s vcr because that's how much of a hifi nut I am". Almost a badge of honour to show how 'valid' they are as an enthusiast. I'm not sure if this is true or not, it's just a feeling I've had every now and again.

As for a positive idea to engage the masses I really don't know. It can start with a really good, positive peice of coverage on Something for the Weekend about an item like the B&W Zeppelin. Clearly it's not hifi separates, but it is built in the pursuit of a high fidelity playback of what you connect. It's these hifi/lifestyle products and good value (not necessarily cheap) active speaker solutions that people will actually want to fit into their lives and enjoy.

As an idea for a product how about this: The Onkyo CR525 (could be the denon micro or the yamaha just as easily - no brand favouritism here!) has a USB connection and two 20 watt amp channels. It wouldn't be hard to strip out the CD player, whip out the radio, build the usb (and dac that must go along with it) and the 20 watt amp into the speakers, throw away the metal casing that costs a fortune (relatively) to produce, bundle what are now effectively active speakers with a dac built in with an ipod dock and sell the whole system for less than the current CD version. Lovejoy would be able to understand it, it would be considerably cheaper than the current system (or could be made more 'hifi' and sold at the same price), there's no ugly metal box to find space for, the speakers can be a nice finish, etc, etc

If we have manufacturers leading the way with these types of product we've got every chance, if we don't we'll lose the whole 'iPod generation' and our industry will shrink further.

 

[Anonymous]

MENISCUS:
I think that you're flogging a dead horse here, Hi Fi will never become mass market.

Only enthusiasts like ourselves will require the best that we can afford in musical reproduction, most will be happy to be satisfied with the mediocre just as in photography everyone uses a camera but very few have Canon or Nikon SLRs...........

This is an elitist comment and typical of an "audiophile".

You state that you want the best musical reproduction you can afford but are using a system that could be bettered for half the price. However, I bet you wouldn't even consider listening to a pair of cheaper active speakers using your computer and a DAC as the source.

B&W CM1s are very coloured loudspeakers. They are terribly insensitive in order to squeeze some bass out of a tiny box, and you're driving them with an underpowered amplifier. Two negatives I'm afraid there.

 

[John Duncan]

The biggest issue is that 99% of people think that £99 is "about right" for a stereo (my wife among them). However, if a manufacturer can take the Uniti concept - ie add the value of streaming, incorporate reasonable amplification, make it look cool, and sell it for £400 (ex. speakers), it'll be bought in droves (including by me). The closet we've got so far is Sonos, but 1) it's not that cheap (for the non-hifi aficionados), 2) it doesn't look like hifi (for the hifi aficionados).

Cambridge Audio, where's the 640[insert correct letter here] Uniti-stomper?!?!?!?

 

[Anonymous]

It was probably just easier when people put records on to listen to music instead of having to decide between FLAC, Apple lossless, MP3, MP4, downloading, streaming, ripping, CD, Digital, DAB, internet, FM, vinyl, SACD, and those CDs that are made from glass for 98,700 Yen a pop.

 

[alanalan]

JohnDuncan:Cambridge Audio, where's the 640[insert correct letter here] Uniti-stomper?!?!?!?

Don't call it an i whatever you do - Lovejoy will hate it!

 

[John Duncan]

Except of course that's exactly what it should be called...

 

[Anonymous]

Ashley James:The problem is that prices of consumer and pro audio electronics have fallen as the technology and performance has improved while hi fi, which is lower technology and should have done the same, hasn't. It has become far to expensive and it is trailing behind everything else technically as the presenter on the TV program indicated.

IMHO, much of the hi fi industry has to a large extent become specialised and elitist and it hasn't been rational. The result is that is has become marginalised. What is needed is innovative, exciting and new technology at real world prices and not arguments about the superiority of turntables or whatever and I don't see it happening.

Ash

AVI HiFi,

I do not know if it's right to ask here but some of my points are relevant to this thread so it should be okay:

I am in the south east and am looking to buy a simple music system. The Arcam Solo Mini is recommended but I have read about your product too. I work long hours so am yet to "audition" anything.

In your postings you say a computer is as good as anything. Is your product an "iTune tag-on"? Are there any compromises?

When you say that "prices of electronics have fallen" does that mean that what I get in the speakers is as good as the laboratory products, and would that be the same with Arcam's product - high end performance in a small box for less money? Or is it just all hype?

You say the industry is marginalised. I can understand that. When I first started researching it seemed that forum posters obsessed with detail. I took a week or two off from this forum because every other thread was about mains cables. Is this at all relevant?

How can HiFi become mainstream? My wife and I have music on our laptops and want good sound without ruining the living room and spending a fortune.

Taylor.

 

[Anonymous]

JohnDuncan:The biggest issue is that 99% of people think that £99 is "about right" for a stereo (my wife among them). However, if a manufacturer can take the Uniti concept - ie add the value of streaming, incorporate reasonable amplification, make it look cool, and sell it for £400 (ex. speakers), it'll be bought in droves (including by me). The closet we've got so far is Sonos, but 1) it's not that cheap (for the non-hifi aficionados), 2) it doesn't look like hifi (for the hifi aficionados).

Cambridge Audio, where's the 640[insert correct letter here] Uniti-stomper?!?!?!?

The problem with HiFi is the elitists see price as an indicator of quality when in reality this is not always the case.

I read on another forum a while back that AVI were toying with the idea of putting the 100 watts "two point one system" amplifier in a box; it would contain a variety of digital and analogue inputs be sold direct so that it would retail at under £500. It was purposely conceived to be extremely aggressive.

I have never seen anything of this product since so assume they dropped it.

Having owned older products I have no doubt that it would be good. However, would audiophiles turn their noses up because of the price? Would it be better to sprinkle it with "fairy dust" and charge £2,000? Given this type of industry that would have helped, I expect.

Prices escalated throughout the 1990s and due to personal circumstances I sold up and had a break for a bit. When I wanted to get back into it I was more rational and couldn't see many products being value for money, so have moved mostly to professional gear. It's a different world - although less attractive in the living room.

 

[chebby]

Eddie Pound:I read on another forum a while back that AVI were toying with the idea of putting the 100 watts "two point one system" amplifier in a box; it would contain a variety of digital and analogue inputs be sold direct so that it would retail at under £500. It was purposely conceived to be extremely aggressive.

I have never seen anything of this product since so assume they dropped it.

Do not despair, the 'forthcoming' Neutron 5.2.1 is prominently listed on the revamped AVI website and mentions they should be available from March onwards....

http://www.avihifi.co.uk/neutron.html

Probably just a little 'slippage' in deadlines common to many companies.

(You may have been mistaken on the price though. The 5.2.1 system was always around £900 for the sub/amp/dac and £399 for the Neutron speakers.)

 

[Anonymous]

Eddie Pound:MENISCUS:
I think that you're flogging a dead horse here, Hi Fi will never become mass market.

Only enthusiasts like ourselves will require the best that we can afford in musical reproduction, most will be happy to be satisfied with the mediocre just as in photography everyone uses a camera but very few have Canon or Nikon SLRs...........

This is an elitist comment and typical of an "audiophile".

You state that you want the best musical reproduction you can afford but are using a system that could be bettered for half the price. However, I bet you wouldn't even consider listening to a pair of cheaper active speakers using your computer and a DAC as the source.

B&W CM1s are very coloured loudspeakers. They are terribly insensitive in order to squeeze some bass out of a tiny box, and you're driving them with an underpowered amplifier. Two negatives I'm afraid there.

Oh dear, if only you knew what you are talking about,

I notice from your previous posts that you try to belittle anything to do with Naim, that is your prerogative, but please do some research before you post such uneducated comments.........

 

[idc]

alanalan: ......You obviously have no grasp of any of this since you use completely ridiculous, ambiguous and unfounded phrases such as "...goodness knows...it must be in the millions"! Must it? Really? Science fact? I think not. You clearly have no idea what you're claiming and you're making yourself look foolish saying such things........ 3AM rant over!

(Note to self: must be more careful in the future and do better)

 

[Anonymous]

Meniscus,

You'll have to elaborate.

Are the CM1s not a terribly insensitive small speaker?

 

[Anonymous]

Chebby,

An amplifier only, not the sub system.

They called it a SuperNaitron, I think. Maybe it was a wind-up.

 

[alanalan]

Taylor74:How can HiFi become mainstream? My wife and I have music on our laptops and want good sound without ruining the living room and spending a fortune.

Taylor.

How many other people are out there who want good sound without ruining the living room or spending a fortune?

Hifi can become mainstream again when we have a choice of products for you. At the moment there are a few choices and the selection is growing

Mains cables are not relevant, what is important is that you find the options that do what you want. Think about what you'll use. Are all your CDs on your computer now? I don't want my 100s of CDs in my lounge and if they're far away I'll be less likely to go get one and put it on. Will you use the CD player long term? Something like the Arcam can easily connect to a Logitech squeezebox system to unlock your PC music (so will pretty much any active speakers) so would you be paying for the nice CD mech that's in the solo and not using it? Does internet radio mean you don't need DAB?

The starting point should always be what you want the system to do. Then you can price options to achieve it. Then listen to as many as possible - cheap and expensive - and pick where you want to be.

 

[alanalan]

idc:alanalan: ......You obviously have no grasp of any of this since you use completely ridiculous, ambiguous and unfounded phrases such as "...goodness knows...it must be in the millions"! Must it? Really? Science fact? I think not. You clearly have no idea what you're claiming and you're making yourself look foolish saying such things........ 3AM rant over!

(Note to self: must be more careful in the future and do better)

Indeed! Perhaps overly harsh in the headachey light of day. Note to self: In future wait until the morning to comment. Sorry.

 

[idc]

alanalan:idc:alanalan: ......You obviously have no grasp of any of this since you use completely ridiculous, ambiguous and unfounded phrases such as "...goodness knows...it must be in the millions"! Must it? Really? Science fact? I think not. You clearly have no idea what you're claiming and you're making yourself look foolish saying such things........ 3AM rant over!

(Note to self: must be more careful in the future and do better)

Indeed! Perhaps overly harsh in the headachey light of day. Note to self: In future wait until the morning to comment. Sorry.

Not at all, I have the hide of a rhino and a disclaimer in my biog. Out of interest, do you know where and when can we find out what the viewing figures were for that show. (I don't even know what it is called; note to self, watch more daytime TV and and try to keep up with stuff).

 

[JoelSim]

I'm here Prof.

My view is that we should all listen to what we want to listen to and feel comfortable with.

My choice is a CD player currently, played through 2 amps. And it all takes up an awful lot of room in my living room. Having said that I listen to it for hours almost every day, intended as background music I frequently find myself being taken in by the music, eyes closed etc. For me this is what I want and expect.

Having heard a few inferior systems, mini, midi, lower end separates, iPod and dock, iPod through my amps, I will stick with the CD player at the moment as this gives me the quality my 'enthusiasm' demands. That's not to say that this won't change - I imagine one day I will have streaming device.

Overall I don't want to listen to something that isn;t as good as what I have now and I'm always striving for better and better. In fact I've just bought 3 new (second hand) mains cables for the CDP and amps, RRP £780 new. These have been bought for now, and for the future when I eventually upgrade to something more high-end. What I have now is to the masses very high-end, but to audiophiles just a decent enough mid-range system. But it's my hobby and I get an enormous amount of pleasure from it.

I've said many times on this forum that I have very little interest currently in ripping music, to me this isn't convenient. When music can be ripped wirelessly and immediately then I may just change my view, but at the moment I'd rather stick pins in my eyes than transfer loads of CDs/time to my computer/hard drive/backup knowing full well that I will buy a new computer reasonably regularly.

As far as Lovejoy is concerned, he is happy with his MP3s by the sounds of things, if he were to compare what he has against what I have then I'm pretty sure he would hear the huge difference and be impressed. I would imagine, however, that sound quality isn't his highest priority and good luck to him. I suspect he listens to music on the train and watches TV at home. I don't.

I also have no doubt that streaming, multi-room systems are the future controlled through your phone, for some they are the present. My multi-room system is a hole in the wall near the stereo through which 8 cables are fed to my second set of speakers in the kitchen/diner. Perfect for me.

So all taken into consideration, I supect that Lovejoy wouldn;t be interested in many aspects of my hifi; CDP, mains cables, interconnects, mains blocks, equipment support, size, speaker cables, record player, large speakers. Maybe I should offer him my Bose Sounddock...it just sits in the cupboard as to me it's rubbish.

What does bring a smile to my face is the quality of what I hear on a regular basis, where the musicians are in respect of the recording etc etc and spending another grand on upgrading is money well spent. Spending a grand on a Blu-Ray player would be money wasted as my DVD player is perfectly sufficient for my needs. To some the BDP is necessity now.

I'll leave you with one thought. Lovejoy is a Chelsea fan. I'd rather rip music!