Yeah, a mate of mine was stunned too after his dealer took his HDX back for repair the third time in 4 months. The last time it would not power on. Nice use of 4.5Kÿ
Well am I sure? I think you would be wise to reconsider what you're saying.
"33,306 users... goodness knows how many views there has been, it must be in the millions".
Perhaps you should brush up on your online marketing.
There is a huge difference between views and unique views. If I (and everybody else who is registered) have looked at this forum 30 times then maybe we could get close to a million views. That million repeat views is worth (roughly) 1/30 as much as 1,000,000 unique, individual, different people looking at it.
You obviously have no grasp of any of this since you use completely ridiculous, ambiguous and unfounded phrases such as "...goodness knows...it must be in the millions"! Must it? Really? Science fact? I think not. You clearly have no idea what you're claiming and you're making yourself look foolish saying such things.
I know you're precious about your hifi (otherwise you wouldn't be here) and I am too.
I'm not trying to dispute that (as a general rule) more expensive equipment gives a 'higher fidelity' reproduction of what you're listening to than a budget system. I'm sure the Naim is better than a DM37.
What I'm hoping to explain is that whilst the whole 'music industry' has been noticeably pushing towards 'live' music and the experience of listening to it (including CDs of live recordings), we have neglected to educate people about how good ALL their music can sound; how much extra enjoyment could be gleaned from simply plugging igrados into their iPods.
We end up with a bored public who do not give two hoots about aluminium casings or vibration dampened mechanisms. If you try to tell them they've 'got to have the right interconnects...' they just switch off.
The public (Lovejoy et al) are all about the experience. We have done NOTHING as an industry to demonstrate to the public at large that the experience is better with a high fidelity system.That is our fault! Witless TV monkeys cannot be blamed for being bored by what was probably well up there in the top 10 most incomprehensible press briefs they've ever had to read.
I remember I was present when the Gadget Show filmed a speaker special involving some very expensive Kef speakers (and some MS Mezzos too) and Jason had to ask me what the Kef press release meant! Point source, Uni-Q time-aligned blah blah blah means nothing to anyone who actually has a life.
Until we address the fact that the public don't know there is better to be had than their poxy £30 iPod dock we will never have aspirational items for people to want.
The way to achieve this is not by putting a £2000 version of a Hitachi mini system (as far as the public are concerned) on TV and boring the backside off the viewers about it.
First we have to demonstrate that what EVERYBODY can do is enjoy the music (or films) that they love more. Not try to get them to buy into the one-up-man-ship of collecting expensive hifi badges. We need to get people appreciating the value of enjoying the music more because the sound quality is better. The way you do that is not by saying 'you need to spend £2k or you won't have it'. It's by saying spend what you can and get as much as possible.
3AM rant over!
"33,306 users... goodness knows how many views there has been, it must be in the millions".
Perhaps you should brush up on your online marketing.
There is a huge difference between views and unique views. If I (and everybody else who is registered) have looked at this forum 30 times then maybe we could get close to a million views. That million repeat views is worth (roughly) 1/30 as much as 1,000,000 unique, individual, different people looking at it.
You obviously have no grasp of any of this since you use completely ridiculous, ambiguous and unfounded phrases such as "...goodness knows...it must be in the millions"! Must it? Really? Science fact? I think not. You clearly have no idea what you're claiming and you're making yourself look foolish saying such things.
I know you're precious about your hifi (otherwise you wouldn't be here) and I am too.
I'm not trying to dispute that (as a general rule) more expensive equipment gives a 'higher fidelity' reproduction of what you're listening to than a budget system. I'm sure the Naim is better than a DM37.
What I'm hoping to explain is that whilst the whole 'music industry' has been noticeably pushing towards 'live' music and the experience of listening to it (including CDs of live recordings), we have neglected to educate people about how good ALL their music can sound; how much extra enjoyment could be gleaned from simply plugging igrados into their iPods.
We end up with a bored public who do not give two hoots about aluminium casings or vibration dampened mechanisms. If you try to tell them they've 'got to have the right interconnects...' they just switch off.
The public (Lovejoy et al) are all about the experience. We have done NOTHING as an industry to demonstrate to the public at large that the experience is better with a high fidelity system.That is our fault! Witless TV monkeys cannot be blamed for being bored by what was probably well up there in the top 10 most incomprehensible press briefs they've ever had to read.
I remember I was present when the Gadget Show filmed a speaker special involving some very expensive Kef speakers (and some MS Mezzos too) and Jason had to ask me what the Kef press release meant! Point source, Uni-Q time-aligned blah blah blah means nothing to anyone who actually has a life.
Until we address the fact that the public don't know there is better to be had than their poxy £30 iPod dock we will never have aspirational items for people to want.
The way to achieve this is not by putting a £2000 version of a Hitachi mini system (as far as the public are concerned) on TV and boring the backside off the viewers about it.
First we have to demonstrate that what EVERYBODY can do is enjoy the music (or films) that they love more. Not try to get them to buy into the one-up-man-ship of collecting expensive hifi badges. We need to get people appreciating the value of enjoying the music more because the sound quality is better. The way you do that is not by saying 'you need to spend £2k or you won't have it'. It's by saying spend what you can and get as much as possible.
3AM rant over!
chebby:
That's good marketing value for money then.
Naim probably had to pay £600,000 to the BBC so some orange bloke (who is only there to attract the 50+ female demographic*) can demonstrate his total disinterest in anything that has an 'i' in front of it or plays a CD.
And it results in one (possible) sale.
A ludicrous suggestion from start to finish...
That's good marketing value for money then.
Naim probably had to pay £600,000 to the BBC so some orange bloke (who is only there to attract the 50+ female demographic*) can demonstrate his total disinterest in anything that has an 'i' in front of it or plays a CD.
And it results in one (possible) sale.
A ludicrous suggestion from start to finish...
Strangelove:Yeah, a mate of mine was stunned too after his dealer took his HDX back for repair the third time in 4 months. The last time it would not power on. Nice use of 4.5K
Ah. I see...
Ah. I see...
I didnt mind Tim Lovejoy on Soccer AM 3-4 years ago, but nowadays he always seems like he's desperately trying to cling to his 'I love witty banter' image like those annoying blokes off the WKD adverts.
alanalan:I remember I was present when the Gadget Show filmed a speaker special involving some very expensive Kef speakers (and some MS Mezzos too) and Jason had to ask me what the Kef press release meant! Point source, Uni-Q time-aligned blah blah blah means nothing to anyone who actually has a life.
Until we address the fact that the public don't know there is better to be had than their poxy £30 iPod dock we will never have aspirational items for people to want.
And until we address the fact that there are people on this thread who clearly have vested industry interests they're not declaring, we will never have clarity of discussion. As it says in the House Rules, "we ask manufacturers, retailers and service providers to clearly identify themselves in their user profile."
We have Strangelove claiming to know where I live, and now to have had a mate who has had a Naim HDX repaired three times already, we have alanalan explaining to someone on the Gadget Show about the content of KEF press releases during filming - 'fess up, ladies and gentlemen, or be banned...
Until we address the fact that the public don't know there is better to be had than their poxy £30 iPod dock we will never have aspirational items for people to want.
And until we address the fact that there are people on this thread who clearly have vested industry interests they're not declaring, we will never have clarity of discussion. As it says in the House Rules, "we ask manufacturers, retailers and service providers to clearly identify themselves in their user profile."
We have Strangelove claiming to know where I live, and now to have had a mate who has had a Naim HDX repaired three times already, we have alanalan explaining to someone on the Gadget Show about the content of KEF press releases during filming - 'fess up, ladies and gentlemen, or be banned...
Andrew Everard:
Pmaninit:'FESS UP! hahahahaha
Huh?
- fess up as in confess, thought you were being 'ghetto' again, it makes me laugh. anyhoo
If there are any Naim people on here please can you put a DAC into an amp for under £1000 please, this could compete with the new Cyrus 8XPD. Ta
Oh and don't forget all the digital inputs...
Pmaninit:'FESS UP! hahahahaha
Huh?
- fess up as in confess, thought you were being 'ghetto' again, it makes me laugh. anyhoo
If there are any Naim people on here please can you put a DAC into an amp for under £1000 please, this could compete with the new Cyrus 8XPD. Ta
Oh and don't forget all the digital inputs...
Pmaninit:thought you were being 'ghetto' again
I'm not at all sure what "being 'ghetto' again" means, so you can be sure that's not what I was trying to do.
Pmaninit:it makes me laugh. anyhoo
Well, that's nice...
I'm not at all sure what "being 'ghetto' again" means, so you can be sure that's not what I was trying to do.
Pmaninit:it makes me laugh. anyhoo
Well, that's nice...
I love how many times the "mate of mine" chestnut gets trotted out on this forum.
"A mate of mine has an LP12 and reckons my Rega Planar 2 wipes the floor with it..." etc
"A mate of mine has an LP12 and reckons my Rega Planar 2 wipes the floor with it..." etc
I'm not sure why I am facing a ban over a friend having a bad time with his Naim HDX box? ÿPlease can you tell me in what way does thisÿconstituteÿbeing kicked off this forum?ÿ
No doubt this post will be removed just minutes after I have hit the post button, so if anyone see's this then let me explain I do not work in the industry, I do buy What Hifi, but for how long after this I am not sure!
No doubt this post will be removed just minutes after I have hit the post button, so if anyone see's this then let me explain I do not work in the industry, I do buy What Hifi, but for how long after this I am not sure!
Tends to go hand in hand with "a dealer I was talking to the other day says they've had dozens of them and they've all gone back faulty"...
Strangelove:I'm not sure why I am facing a ban over a friend having a bad time with his Naim HDX box? Please can you tell me in what way does this constitute being kicked off this forum?
No doubt this post will be removed just minutes after I have hit the post button, so if anyone see's this then let me explain I do not work in the industry, I do buy What Hifi, but for how long after this I am not sure!
No, it won't be removed. And of course no-one's going to be banned for having an unfortunate friend. Only those who are discovered to have been grinding an axe without making clear the reasons for the sharpening.
Now about your strange comment earlier regarding knowing where I live...?
No doubt this post will be removed just minutes after I have hit the post button, so if anyone see's this then let me explain I do not work in the industry, I do buy What Hifi, but for how long after this I am not sure!
No, it won't be removed. And of course no-one's going to be banned for having an unfortunate friend. Only those who are discovered to have been grinding an axe without making clear the reasons for the sharpening.
Now about your strange comment earlier regarding knowing where I live...?
It's almost pointless to explain here, no doubt the next post will be "see he works in the industry" and to be honest I give up with posting here after the negative and to be honest lack of subjective nature of this forum. It's put me off Hifi forums for a while.
Ravey Gravey Davy
Well-known member
alanalan:
Perhaps you should brush up on your online marketing.
You obviously have no grasp of any of this since you use completely ridiculous, ambiguous and unfounded phrases such as "...goodness knows...it must be in the millions"! Must it? Really? Science fact? I think not. You clearly have no idea what you're claiming and you're making yourself look foolish saying such things.
Bad first day at the office dear.
You're obviously so knowledgeable they named you twice.
Perhaps you should brush up on your online marketing.
You obviously have no grasp of any of this since you use completely ridiculous, ambiguous and unfounded phrases such as "...goodness knows...it must be in the millions"! Must it? Really? Science fact? I think not. You clearly have no idea what you're claiming and you're making yourself look foolish saying such things.
Bad first day at the office dear.
You're obviously so knowledgeable they named you twice.
Anyway, apart from all that, and I haven't watched the clip... but as a long-time Naim buyer (25 years) I am concerned that Naim are producing more and more complex software-dependant products for instant market penetration, which have great potential to go wrong. Personally I think they should stick to what they know - like getting a state-of-the-art range of speakers out before the next millenium - and leave the fancy stuff to the Japanese.
Strangelove:It's almost pointless to explain here, no doubt the next post will be "see he works in the industry"
Frankly I find that logic hard to follow.
Strangelove:and to be
honest I give up with posting here after the negative and to be honest
lack of subjective nature of this forum. It's put me off Hifi forums
for a while.
Well, usually the accusation is of lack of objectivity, but glad to hear we can lack subjectivity, too. And there's no negativity from our side - only a desire for clarity, so that other posters can judge for themselves what's being said.
Frankly I find that logic hard to follow.
Strangelove:and to be
honest I give up with posting here after the negative and to be honest
lack of subjective nature of this forum. It's put me off Hifi forums
for a while.
Well, usually the accusation is of lack of objectivity, but glad to hear we can lack subjectivity, too. And there's no negativity from our side - only a desire for clarity, so that other posters can judge for themselves what's being said.
Andrew Everard:
And until we address the fact that there are people on this thread who clearly have vested industry interests they're not declaring, we will never have clarity of discussion. As it says in the House Rules, "we ask manufacturers, retailers and service providers to clearly identify themselves in their user profile."
I appreciate that but, in this case these are my views, not my companies. I am in the 'industry', I work for a retailer, so I guess I do ultimately have a vested interest in the sense I don't want to be out of a job. What I'm saying is not the 'company view', just my own thoughts, so they're posted under my name. I thought that was the appropriate way to go about it.
I'm not trying to push any undeclared interest or hidden agenda. All I want to drive forward is public interest in what we all care about. Flatscreen TVs are a good example of an aspirational item where the high demand drives quality up and price down for joe public and enthusiast alike.
And until we address the fact that there are people on this thread who clearly have vested industry interests they're not declaring, we will never have clarity of discussion. As it says in the House Rules, "we ask manufacturers, retailers and service providers to clearly identify themselves in their user profile."
I appreciate that but, in this case these are my views, not my companies. I am in the 'industry', I work for a retailer, so I guess I do ultimately have a vested interest in the sense I don't want to be out of a job. What I'm saying is not the 'company view', just my own thoughts, so they're posted under my name. I thought that was the appropriate way to go about it.
I'm not trying to push any undeclared interest or hidden agenda. All I want to drive forward is public interest in what we all care about. Flatscreen TVs are a good example of an aspirational item where the high demand drives quality up and price down for joe public and enthusiast alike.
The problem with exposure like that is that the presenter probably represents the views of the people watching and he thought it was miles too much money and old fashioned because it played CDs and he preferred downloads. Therefore IMO it was negative, but Hi Fi's problems are much more serious than that.
If you ask the public at large to name a hi fi company, they will mention either B&O or Bose and almost none will know any of the specialists. Also if you visit a John Lewis Department store you'll see a wide variety of portable radios etc, all for less than £200 and you'll see the Meridian Clock Radio which is £1500 odd. It looks ridiculously overpriced by comparison to a "layman".
Bose and B & O have have massive marketing budgets to convince people that what they do is the best, but B & O's UK turnover is still tiny compared to the likes of Sony or Panasonic. The problem for hi fi companies is that they aren't big enough to be able to afford to promote themselves in this way, but that they are still making products that are hugely more expensive than people's ideas of what they ought to cost.
If someone goes into a good radio and TV shop he's going to see some beautifully presented, probably Japanese hi Fi for a few hundred pounds and if he doesn't like it and wants better sound quality, he'll assume that for perhaps 20% more that he'll get it, but when he goes to a hi fi shop, he may be asked for five times as much and he may not be over impressed with what's on offer. A lot of specialist stuff isn't better presented than the value for money Japanese IMO.
I don't think demonstrating better sound quality is enough to convince the public at large to buy hi fi as it is now, especially as there are much more exciting new TVs and media type computers appearing. We were amazed at the interest in the Apple TV (also how many people had bought them) at the Gadget Show and it costs £200!
Ash
If you ask the public at large to name a hi fi company, they will mention either B&O or Bose and almost none will know any of the specialists. Also if you visit a John Lewis Department store you'll see a wide variety of portable radios etc, all for less than £200 and you'll see the Meridian Clock Radio which is £1500 odd. It looks ridiculously overpriced by comparison to a "layman".
Bose and B & O have have massive marketing budgets to convince people that what they do is the best, but B & O's UK turnover is still tiny compared to the likes of Sony or Panasonic. The problem for hi fi companies is that they aren't big enough to be able to afford to promote themselves in this way, but that they are still making products that are hugely more expensive than people's ideas of what they ought to cost.
If someone goes into a good radio and TV shop he's going to see some beautifully presented, probably Japanese hi Fi for a few hundred pounds and if he doesn't like it and wants better sound quality, he'll assume that for perhaps 20% more that he'll get it, but when he goes to a hi fi shop, he may be asked for five times as much and he may not be over impressed with what's on offer. A lot of specialist stuff isn't better presented than the value for money Japanese IMO.
I don't think demonstrating better sound quality is enough to convince the public at large to buy hi fi as it is now, especially as there are much more exciting new TVs and media type computers appearing. We were amazed at the interest in the Apple TV (also how many people had bought them) at the Gadget Show and it costs £200!
Ash
RodhasGibson
Well-known member
So what is the answer?
How do you in the industry (and media) get the public excited again about high quality replay of everything from their CDs to radio (internet or otherwise) and get them engaged with extracting the best from their downloads?
How are you going to get them to understand about spending enough? People who can still afford holidays and cars and vast flat screen TVs can presumably afford enough (relative to those other often more expensive items) to invest in good sound.
So how can the industry make that important to people again?
How do you in the industry (and media) get the public excited again about high quality replay of everything from their CDs to radio (internet or otherwise) and get them engaged with extracting the best from their downloads?
How are you going to get them to understand about spending enough? People who can still afford holidays and cars and vast flat screen TVs can presumably afford enough (relative to those other often more expensive items) to invest in good sound.
So how can the industry make that important to people again?
chebby:So what is the answer?
How do you in the industry (and media) get the public excited again about high quality replay of everything from their CDs to radio (internet or otherwise) and get them engaged with extracting the best from their downloads?
How are you going to get them to understand about spending enough? People who can still afford holidays and cars and vast flat screen TVs can presumably afford enough (relative to those other often more expensive items) to invest in good sound.
So how can the industry make that important to people again?
How many people say "let's sit down and put a CD on"? How many people care about how their music sound?
Apple's iPods (as a generalisation) brought convenience to the mass market and once people have bought into that I think it is going to be very hard to get them to spend £££s on some more serious kit that will give them higher fidelity sound reproduction.
With the decline of recorded music (vinyl and CDs), it is inevitable that as more people turn to downloads-only purchases (just as Tim Lovejoy said in his show), the sales of hi-fi hardware will decline. Unless they address this new phenomenom. I'd say "Well done" to Naim for at least to bring to market the HDX and the Uniti, but they should be targeting those "downloads-only" people not the hi-fi enthusiasts.
Edit:
Taking the Uniti to the BBC on a primetime mainstream entertainment show I think takes some courage, but I am not sure it served the product well. Not when the presenter throws back the product because of the iRadio function name on the display. At least more watchers got to hear the name of Naim, which in itself is "priceless" (in terms of free advertising).
His comment about iEverything was quite valid though IMO.
Just my 2p's worth.
How do you in the industry (and media) get the public excited again about high quality replay of everything from their CDs to radio (internet or otherwise) and get them engaged with extracting the best from their downloads?
How are you going to get them to understand about spending enough? People who can still afford holidays and cars and vast flat screen TVs can presumably afford enough (relative to those other often more expensive items) to invest in good sound.
So how can the industry make that important to people again?
How many people say "let's sit down and put a CD on"? How many people care about how their music sound?
Apple's iPods (as a generalisation) brought convenience to the mass market and once people have bought into that I think it is going to be very hard to get them to spend £££s on some more serious kit that will give them higher fidelity sound reproduction.
With the decline of recorded music (vinyl and CDs), it is inevitable that as more people turn to downloads-only purchases (just as Tim Lovejoy said in his show), the sales of hi-fi hardware will decline. Unless they address this new phenomenom. I'd say "Well done" to Naim for at least to bring to market the HDX and the Uniti, but they should be targeting those "downloads-only" people not the hi-fi enthusiasts.
Edit:
Taking the Uniti to the BBC on a primetime mainstream entertainment show I think takes some courage, but I am not sure it served the product well. Not when the presenter throws back the product because of the iRadio function name on the display. At least more watchers got to hear the name of Naim, which in itself is "priceless" (in terms of free advertising).
His comment about iEverything was quite valid though IMO.
Just my 2p's worth.
The problem is that prices of consumer and pro audio electronics have fallen as the technology and performance has improved while hi fi, which is lower technology and should have done the same, hasn't. It has become far to expensive and it is trailing behind everything else technically as the presenter on the TV program indicated.
IMHO, much of the hi fi industry has to a large extent become specialised and elitist and it hasn't been rational. The result is that is has become marginalised. What is needed is innovative, exciting and new technology at real world prices and not arguments about the superiority of turntables or whatever and I don't see it happening.
Ash
IMHO, much of the hi fi industry has to a large extent become specialised and elitist and it hasn't been rational. The result is that is has become marginalised. What is needed is innovative, exciting and new technology at real world prices and not arguments about the superiority of turntables or whatever and I don't see it happening.
Ash
Ashley James:The problem is that prices of consumer and pro audio electronics have fallen as the technology and performance has improved while hi fi, which is lower technology and should have done the same, hasn't. It has become far to expensive and it is trailing behind everything else technically as the presenter on the TV program indicated.
IMHO, much of the hi fi industry has to a large extent become specialised and elitist and it hasn't been rational. The result is that is has become marginalised. What is needed is innovative, exciting and new technology at real world prices and not arguments about the superiority of turntables or whatever and I don't see it happening.
Ash
Ashley, I was rather hoping for something more upbeat in the nature of suggestions from those in the industry (like yourself) as to how you can make high quality sound an excting and aspirational thing that makes people want to spend their money on it.
Carping about other sectors of the same industry (and their approach to marketing high quality audio) is not a suggestion or a solution. Your bottom line depends on you getting the public enthused about your solutions and getting as many ordinary people interested in getting high-quality sound from the multitude of sources on offer, not bothering about the perceived deficiencies of your competitiors surely?
Hs anyone from the world of manufacturers, dealers, marketing, recording, media etc got anything unilaterally positive to offer as a solution to the problem of getting the public (us the consumer) interested in high quality music replay?
IMHO, much of the hi fi industry has to a large extent become specialised and elitist and it hasn't been rational. The result is that is has become marginalised. What is needed is innovative, exciting and new technology at real world prices and not arguments about the superiority of turntables or whatever and I don't see it happening.
Ash
Ashley, I was rather hoping for something more upbeat in the nature of suggestions from those in the industry (like yourself) as to how you can make high quality sound an excting and aspirational thing that makes people want to spend their money on it.
Carping about other sectors of the same industry (and their approach to marketing high quality audio) is not a suggestion or a solution. Your bottom line depends on you getting the public enthused about your solutions and getting as many ordinary people interested in getting high-quality sound from the multitude of sources on offer, not bothering about the perceived deficiencies of your competitiors surely?
Hs anyone from the world of manufacturers, dealers, marketing, recording, media etc got anything unilaterally positive to offer as a solution to the problem of getting the public (us the consumer) interested in high quality music replay?
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