Musical fidelity M6i or Naim Nait xs to drive my B&W 683

[acalex]

...

P.S. I've heard the Masterclass, love it, just don't think it's the amp I'd consider first unless I had a spare £10K for the rest of the system to do it justice

Did you hear the AMS35 also?

 

[CnoEvil]

What is a transient response? Thanks!

In a hifi context, a Transient is a sudden, quick burst of sound (eg. a cymbal)....so a "Lightening Transient Response" refers to the speed with which an amp can react to these sudden bursts of sound.

The reason Class A does this so well in this area, is that it constantly has current flowing through its output transistors (even with no signal). This means an almost instantaneous reaction to these transients. It's what gives it the dynamic, life-like realism that you hear

It's a bit like a car that is on full revs before it takes off from stationary....it will be faster off the line than one that's ticking over.

Well that's my understanding.

Cno

 

[WishTree]

Plus the delaer stocking the Classe amplifiers is in Brussels! :dance:

Really nice setup btw

Mission accomplished.. I was just wandered that you guys did not have enough variables in consideration

Thank You! BTW.. The PV1 is not such a shiny orb.. it just so happens that the camera really loves it :cheer:

 

[paradiziac]

...

P.S. I've heard the Masterclass, love it, just don't think it's the amp I'd consider first unless I had a spare £10K for the rest of the system to do it justice

Did you hear the AMS35 also?

No, luckily for me :rofl:

 

[acalex]

What is a transient response? Thanks!

In a hifi context, a Transient is a sudden, quick burst of sound (eg. a cymbal)....so a "Lightening Transient Response" refers to the speed with which an amp can react to these sudden bursts of sound.

The reason Class A does this so well in this area, is that it constantly has current flowing through its output transistors (even with no signal). This means an almost instantaneous reaction to these transients. It's what gives it the dynamic, life-like realism that you hear

It's a bit like a car that is on full revs before it takes off from stationary....it will be faster off the line than one that's ticking over.

Well that's my understanding.

Cno

Thanks a lot, very helpful. It is indeed a very fast amp, the fastest we have heard so far.

 

[Macspur]

I was just thinking about my several demo's

an I'm thinking it's really hard to get a far comparasion....I mean let say the ams i always listened to it on speakers costing at least 6000€ never on speakers of 3000€ an the m6i we also tested speakers of 11000€ an it was great....

Well any way all my demo's where nice an learnfull but only a few where really fair testing different amps on the same speakers with same cables etc

The sugden was great made me want to relax an listen...that's what we are afther I guess, no?

I hope one way of an other I can get a fair demo between the sugden an the ams...

Becaus I love the music, an how more I think about it, the more I think in the budget I'm prepared to spend it would be stupid to make a choice I regret to save 1000€ but also overspend them an gain nothing....

Hmm I thing I'm going to try to have a sugden shiped to my dealer in Brussels so I can test the amps on the same speakers

How will the AMS perform on Proarc.....will it be as laid back or less?

:?

Sorry Roby, somehow missed these posts... been a long day.

Glad you enjoyed the IA-4 so much... it really is a wonderful amp and like I said in my post, the only reason I feel inclined to change it, is the power consumption.

Will be really interested in your Perreaux demo.

Cheers

Mac

 

[WishTree]

Pity! Can I ask you why you got rid of the Inpol2? Pity the pics on your thread are not anymore accessible...

Pathos Inpol2 was really amazing. The sound was beautiful and mesmerizing.

On hindsight, felt the coloring was a tad more than I wanted and I did not want everything to be sugarcoated. I guess this also got to to with me pairing the Inpol2 with Proac D2.

If I have to redo the process again, I will still buy the Inpol2 and possibly live with it a little more longer and then check out the other possibilities. I guess this has also got to do with the way I look at the hobby. I do not have any component in my system for more than a year (and I really do not intend to make it this way but I alwasy get lured by other possibilities). Anything that sticks with me for more that 6 months is a good component. Till now only the Inpol2 and Classe SSP 300 are such strong recommendations with CAP 2100 joining the family of high recommendation from me

Yeah.. also one more thing.. Inpol2 is like the Hummer of the cars.. It stays hot and needs lot of electricity to keep it going which was always nagging me (given the plethora of new designs, I think that Inpol2 achieves the magical sound at too much electrical inefficiencies)

 

[paradiziac]

What is a transient response? Thanks!

In a hifi context, a Transient is a sudden, quick burst of sound (eg. a cymbal)....so a "Lightening Transient Response" refers to the speed with which an amp can react to these sudden bursts of sound.

The reason Class A does this so well in this area, is that it constantly has current flowing through its output transistors (even with no signal). This means an almost instantaneous reaction to these transients. It's what gives it the dynamic, life-like realism that you hear

It's a bit like a car that is on full revs before it takes off from stationary....it will be faster off the line than one that's ticking over.

Well that's my understanding.

Cno

My audiophile vocabularly isn't too good, is this also known as "dynamics"?

If so:

Bob Brozman – Little Tough Guy Blues

Bassekou Kouyate – Segu Blue

These tracks are good for dynamics, plus any rock like Nirvana--you need the system to go quiet off the beat to produce enough "slam" on the beat.

Since I started listening to hifi instead of just the music (sad, I know), I've come to think that these kind of dynamics are possibly the thing that most keeps me listening/enjoying the music. And good dynamics in a system, interestingly, isn't something that needs to cost a lot of money.

Also, in my experience, dynamics come from the speakers and source as well so it's important to consider the system as a whole...if we're talking about the same thing?

I'm not sure if it's really all about the Class of amp though, my Mystro (AB) is more dynamic/faster than the A21a (pure class A)...

 

[CnoEvil]

My audiophile vocabularly isn't too good, is this also known as "dynamics"?

If so:

Bob Brozman – Little Tough Guy Blues

Bassekou Kouyate – Segu Blue

These tracks are good for dynamics, plus any rock like Nirvana--you need the system to go quiet off the beat to produce enough "slam" on the beat.

Since I started listening to hifi instead of just the music (sad, I know), I've come to think that these kind of dynamics are possibly the thing that most keeps me listening/enjoying the music. And good dynamics in a system, interestingly, isn't something that needs to cost a lot of money.

Also, in my experience, dynamics come from the speakers and source as well so it's important to consider the system as a whole...if we're talking about the same thing?

I'm not sure if it's really all about the Class of amp though, my Mystro (AB) is more dynamic/faster than the A21a (pure class A)...

I think the two are interrelated, but the transient response refers to the speed with which the dynamic range is delivered.

Class A doesn't have a monopoly in this area, and the implementation of the design, and the size of the power supply, have a big effect. A true Class A amp produces 1 deg of heat for every Watt, which means big heat sinks....a bit of a give-away.

The only way I can think of to get my point across, is to suggest you give the 35i a quick listen, as it's very hard to fully explain.

Off course the system as a whole has a big effect, as any weak link in the chain diminishes the sound.

It's been a long day, and I'm kinda making this up as I go along ......so I hope it makes some sort of sense (and is half right!)

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

My audiophile vocabularly isn't too good, is this also known as "dynamics"?

nope. transient is simply what sounds, music is made of. in other words transient is difference between frequencies. dynamics is difference between loud and quiet (you can differentiate dynamics for the same frequency, without the need to change freq.).

so transient response is ability to reproduce musical signal accurately. fast transient response correlates with low slew rate and quick rise/fall time.

If so:

Bob Brozman – Little Tough Guy Blues

Bassekou Kouyate – Segu Blue

not using Spotify. but I could find the second track on youtube. I wouldn't say it's has big dynamics. but you need an amp with good transient response indeed in order to reproduce this string instrument well.

I'm not sure if it's really all about the Class of amp though, my Mystro (AB) is more dynamic/faster than the A21a (pure class A)...

don't know what speakers you use but it may be so that your A21 runs out of steam driving your speakers. if you have speakers with difficult impedance - phase shift characteristic they put much heavier burden on the amp. and the amp will not be able to output its full power into such difficult loads. since A21 has much less on tap than Mystro you may get the impression that this amp is less dynamic as it may not be able to drive the speakers efficiently.

 

[paradiziac]

So it sounds like we're talking about the same thing, transient response

Sorry to go a bit off topic, my point was that if Roby likes a bit of hard rock, transient response might be worth trying to listen out for.

don't know what speakers you use but it may be so that your A21 runs out of steam driving your speakers. if you have speakers with difficult impedance - phase shift characteristic they put much heavier burden on the amp. and the amp will not be able to output its full power into such difficult loads. since A21 has much less on tap than Mystro you may get the impression that this amp is less dynamic as it may not be able to drive the speakers efficiently.

I've got 4 sets of amps/speakers, and the results are fairly consistent. Also my A21a is the older model from the 90's with a less beefy power supply than the current model. It's not bad, just that the other amp is better (in that respect).

Googling around on the 683's reveals that despite the manufacturer quoting 90bB/8ohms, people have remarked that the impedance drops dips to around 3 ohms at some frequencies with some mention of phase shift etc (!), hence not an easy load and a powerful amp delivering lots of current would be needed to get the best out of them.

 

[Roby]

How will the AMS perform on Proarc.....will it be as laid back or less?

:?

The AMS 35i is one of the most dynamic amps that I've heard, which is due to its lightening transient response......this is a common trait of Class A. So to answer your question - less laid back.

You are right about two things.

Firstly, it is very hard to compare amps in different rooms and with different source/speakers...though (imo), a better amp driving cheaper speakers can sound better than a cheaper amp driving speakers that it can't quite manage. Although ones' instinct is often correct when assessing these things.

Secondly, if your budget stretches to the amp that you prefer, you may well not be happy with second best.

Do you think the Sugden has blown the M6i out of the water?.....or put another way, is the difference between the M6i & Sugden greater than the difference between the Sugden & 35i? Where do you think the sweetspot lies, when considering how much performance you are getting for your money?

Less laid back that's actualy what I expect considering everything I heard an learned so far ;-)

The question is more on speakers as proarc comparing the ams to the sugden in a same demo ( if we can make thet happen) wil the Sugden still surprise me? :dance:

 

[Roby]

Your first post on the thread:

My dealer say's it's better to start with the amp it's cheaper. Upgrading my 683's would be way more expensive....(803's)

So I will start to chage my nad 356 I have the feeling it misses a bit of power an exitement an it loses grip on passages with charged instrumentals (Led zep, Deep purple....) Vocals sounds great (Vaya condios...).

:?

I agree ;-)... But let me clarify

First of all when I starded I never expected to put the kind of money on the side like I did the last few month's

than me nad is actualy already sold and the buyer will take possession arround 1st of june. So I have no choice than to purchase a new amp. An prevarably this time it should fit my taste completly an in the price I'shopping let's hope it doe's for the next 10 years....So I stard with the amp an upgrade my system from there 8)

An yes I say arround 3 years for the speaker upgrade but hey seeing the evolution on my shopping list this might be sooner who knows

Hey to all of you really intresting toughts an point of views thanks I appreciate it

So much for the initial advice that a speaker upgrade would be way too expensive!

I was reading a review of the 683 and it says they're fantastic speakers for the price, but the one (small) weakness mentioned was that they aren't the most exciting speaker.

The fact that you mentioned exactly this weakness in your first post suggests to me that you should pay a bit more attention to the speaker.

Perhaps there are other speakers that might offer a different kind of presentation that's simply more to your taste (rather than objectively "better"). Like Poldo said, Tannoys...or something fast and rhythmic like Neats, or Totems...

Just a thought...

P.S. I've heard the Masterclass, love it, just don't think it's the amp I'd consider first unless I had a spare £10K for the rest of the system to do it justice

 

[Roby]

I agree

... But let me clarify

First of all when I starded I never expected to put the kind of money on the side like I did the last few month's

than me nad is actualy already sold and the buyer will take possession arround 1st of june. So I have no choice than to purchase a new amp. An prevarably this time it should fit my taste completly an in the price I'shopping let's hope it doe's for the next 10 years....So I stard with the amp an upgrade my system from there

An yes I say arround 3 years for the speaker upgrade but hey seeing the evolution on my shopping list this might be sooner who knows

Hey to all of you really intresting toughts an point of views thanks I appreciate it

 

[Roby]

About the question how would I rate the performance of the M6i / Sugden & Sugden/AMS

Well I have still no doubt an without any question that the M6i is the best value for the money an is for my ears unbeatable for the money.

But then the Sugden is a real upgrade but to my ears of taste it's not the same upgrade in SQ as let’s say going from an M3i to an M6i. An than if you compare the Sugden to the AMS This SQ upgrade is even less I think the Sugden is actually pretty close to the AMS.

But in this process we should keep in mind that the M6i is also the only amp we tested on speakers costing around 12K an it was amazing :O

To make it simple in digit's (an those are not accurate it's just an example)

Let say from a M3i to M6i you gain 50% SQ from M6i to Sugden 20% & from Sugden to AMS 5% .

Even if I say this digits are ridicules an completely out of the bleu...

It's actually pretty close to the budged-t increase :O

Didn't do that on purpose....

But this also proves what we al know how higher the budget you spent how higher the budget you have to spend to gain a little of SQ...

Even If I’m not a big fan of just cold hard specs, I hope this clarify a bit my thoughts.

 

[Roby]

About the question how would I rate the performance of the M6i / Sugden & Sugden/AMS

Well I have still no doubt an without any question that the M6i is the best value for the money an is for my ears unbeatable for the money.

But then the Sugden is a real upgrade but to my ears of taste it's not the same upgrade in SQ as let’s say going from an M3i to an M6i. An than if you compare the Sugden to the AMS This SQ upgrade is even less I think the Sugden is actually pretty close to the AMS.

But in this process we should keep in mind that the M6i is also the only amp we tested on speakers costing around 12K an it was amazing :O

To make it simple in digit's (an those are not accurate it's just an example)

Let say from a M3i to M6i you gain 50% SQ from M6i to Sugden 20% & from Sugden to AMS 5% .

Even if I say this digits are ridicules an completely out of the bleu...

It's actually pretty close to the budged-t increase :O

Didn't do that on purpose....

But this also proves what we al know how higher the budget you spent how higher the budget you have to spend to gain a little of SQ...

Even If I’m not a big fan of just cold hard specs, I hope this clarify a bit my thoughts.

Next step should be to have the M6i in the same demo as the 2 others to have a complete view of there musical performance (wich is of course the most important factor) in the same conditions.

 

[acalex]

...

But in this process we should keep in mind that the M6i is also the only amp we tested on speakers costing around 12K an it was amazing :O

...

Imagine what an AMS could do with those speakers! :twisted: :bounce: :rockout: :dance:

 

[acalex]

I think the two are interrelated, but the transient response refers to the speed with which the dynamic range is delivered.

Class A doesn't have a monopoly in this area, and the implementation of the design, and the size of the power supply, have a big effect. A true Class A amp produces 1 deg of heat for every Watt, which means big heat sinks....a bit of a give-away.

The only way I can think of to get my point across, is to suggest you give the 35i a quick listen, as it's very hard to fully explain.

Off course the system as a whole has a big effect, as any weak link in the chain diminishes the sound.

It's been a long day, and I'm kinda making this up as I go along ......so I hope it makes some sort of sense (and is half right!)

So the two are related to each other but not correlated. An amp can be fast (so having a rapid transient response) but less dynamic than another. Where for dynamic we express the ability to reproduce correctly different sound levels. Not sure I explained myself...let's say that a very dynamic amp is a one able to reproduce very quite sounds as well as very loud ones.

Now, do you think in general tube amps have certain electrical caracteristics which make them more or less dynamic than SS and with a lower/faster transient response? :twisted:

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

So the two are related to each other but not correlated. An amp can be fast (so having a rapid transient response) but less dynamic than another. Where for dynamic we express the ability to reproduce correctly different sound levels.

nay. dynamics is more of a function of the whole system (amp + speakers) and not the amp itself (as a matter of fact transient response depends on amp and speakers combination as well but less so as most speakers - dynamic speakers - don't differ much in this regard. in other words; they all suck). for instance, you could get rumbling dynamics from a SET amp if you connect it to a suitable speakers (like large horns). whereas you might get an impression of reduced dynamics from a poor quality 100W amp connected to very difficult speakers (like B&W Diamonds ,or Focals Utopias).

simplifying; dynamics is about wattage of amp and efficiency of the speakers and transient response is about impulse response behaviour and square wave behaviour of the amp and speakers.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Now, do you think in general tube amps have certain electrical caracteristics which make them more or less dynamic than SS and with a lower/faster transient response? :twisted:

nope. a good tube design has no right to be worse than SS design in those regards. the limiting factor for a tube amp is the output transformer. high quality transformers improve SQ considerably. there are even designs without output transformers but they are more exotic and costly.

for instance. here's 30Hz square wave from Octave mre 130

nearly perfect square wave with rapid rise and fall. this amp is bound to be extremely fast. I bet many SS designs could feel ashamed. unfortunately can't tell for sure. this is the only sub bass square wave graph I came across.

one more thing. extremely fast amp doesn't mean it will sound uptight or rushing. it will sound natural. because it will allow for the initial fast stroke of the sound and then will reproduce decay naturally, without excessive delay nor damping of.

 

[acalex]

Great expalantion, apologies to Rob if we are going off-topic but this is a very interesting topic for me. I am tempted to open a new thread on this and copy these few posts...will it be possible to move a few posts on a new topic?

 

[Roby]

no apologies neceserry, this intrest me aswell

 

[acalex]

no apologies neceserry, this intrest me aswell

Great, in this case I will carry on

From what I understood, dynamics depen more on voltage, so I would expect the valve amps to be able to generate better dynamics than SS ones due to the higher voltages in play...does it make sense?

Also...why usually tube amps generate less current than an equivalent solid state for example? This is due to the fact that (simply) P = V x I and considering P equal at higher V values we get lower I values?

Indeed the AMS sounded very natural due to its response. Coupled with a very fast speaker like the Avalons Idea we tried it was a great combo.

 

[Roby]

Indeed the AMS sounded very natural due to its response. Coupled with a very fast speaker like the Avalons Idea we tried it was a great combo.

:dance: :rant: :rockout: :cheers:

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

From what I understood, dynamics depen more on voltage, so I would expect the valve amps to be able to generate better dynamics than SS ones due to the higher voltages in play...does it make sense?

I think you should look at the whole problem more holistically and so much one thing in separation to another. you can't say that one amp is more dynamic than another unless one of them is not hi-fi. hi-fi is all about faithful reproduction so if one tries to be more dynamic or can't be dynamic enough is not hi-fi.

why usually tube amps generate less current than an equivalent solid state for example?

this is due to the fact that tube behave that way. they amplify voltage and not current. that's why you need output transformers for most tube amps. to convert this high voltage/low current signal into something speakers like and need - lots of current. and that's what transistor do best, they amplify current better.

you may consider voltage as a roadsign for the amp what direction to go. if it has to play quiet or loud according to input signal (so in the first place you need to have a dynamic recording, highly compressed rock or pop music doesn't require dynamic systems because there's no dynamism in the music). current on the other side is needed to drive the speakers accurately. amps only amplify voltage because the input signal is too low (only 2V on average).

a very fast speaker like the Avalons Idea we tried

OK, as fast as they may be you never know how much low level detail you miss until you get to experience something with even better resolution, in other words better impulse response. dynamic drivers are notoriously poor in this department.