Musical fidelity M6i or Naim Nait xs to drive my B&W 683

[CnoEvil]

nope. transient is simply what sounds, music is made of. in other words transient is difference between frequencies. dynamics is difference between loud and quiet (you can differentiate dynamics for the same frequency, without the need to change freq.).

so transient response is ability to reproduce musical signal accurately. fast transient response correlates with low slew rate and quick rise/fall time.

Oldric, you seem comfortable getting into the nuts and bolts of this....so two quick questions:

1. Am I right in thinking the Slew Rate determines the Transient Response?.....if it doesn't, then what exactly is it?

2. I have a very (very) peripheral knowledge of Phase Angle ie something to do with the phase swinging back and forth....and Crossovers. Can you offer a simple explanation, that's suitable for a luddite?

Cheers

Cno

 

[CnoEvil]

About the question how would I rate the performance of the M6i / Sugden & Sugden/AMS

Well I have still no doubt an without any question that the M6i is the best value for the money an is for my ears unbeatable for the money.

But then the Sugden is a real upgrade but to my ears of taste it's not the same upgrade in SQ as let’s say going from an M3i to an M6i. An than if you compare the Sugden to the AMS This SQ upgrade is even less I think the Sugden is actually pretty close to the AMS.

But in this process we should keep in mind that the M6i is also the only amp we tested on speakers costing around 12K an it was amazing :O

If you want to determine which is ultimately the best amp, you need to slot them into a very revealing highend system with accurate speakers....solely for the purpose of analyzing the characteristics/weaknesses of each.

If you want to determine the best for you, they need to be tested with the components that you have your eye on. It's now a matter of synergy, diminishing returns and personal preference.

 

[acalex]

About the question how would I rate the performance of the M6i / Sugden & Sugden/AMS

Well I have still no doubt an without any question that the M6i is the best value for the money an is for my ears unbeatable for the money.

But then the Sugden is a real upgrade but to my ears of taste it's not the same upgrade in SQ as let’s say going from an M3i to an M6i. An than if you compare the Sugden to the AMS This SQ upgrade is even less I think the Sugden is actually pretty close to the AMS.

But in this process we should keep in mind that the M6i is also the only amp we tested on speakers costing around 12K an it was amazing :O

If you want to determine which is ultimately the best amp, you need to slot them into a very revealing highend system with accurate speakers....solely for the purpose of analyzing the characteristics/weaknesses of each.

If you want to determine the best for you, they need to be tested with the components that you have your eye on. It's now a matter of synergy, diminishing returns and personal preference.

I think it will be a bit longer journey for Roby :rofl:

 

[CnoEvil]

I think it will be a bit longer journey for Roby :rofl:

That would be your fault......every time he thinks he knows what he wants, you introduce (tempt) him to something more exotic (expensive). This lengthens the time needed to gather up the money. :doh:

 

[acalex]

I think it will be a bit longer journey for Roby :rofl:

That would be your fault......every time he thinks he knows what he wants, you introduce (tempt) him to something more exotic (expensive). This lengthens the time needed to gather up the money. :doh:

Nha...the unlucky part was meeting at the wrong demo (when I was listening to the AMS)....from that moment on nothing was the same anymore :dance:

 

[CnoEvil]

Nha...the unlucky part was meeting at the wrong demo (when I was listening to the AMS)....from that moment on nothing was the same anymore :dance:

Ah, but you haven't really concentrated on your source yet......... >)

 

[acalex]

Nha...the unlucky part was meeting at the wrong demo (when I was listening to the AMS)....from that moment on nothing was the same anymore :dance:

Ah, but you haven't really concentrated on your source yet......... >)

Main source will be for now turnatble (at 95% will be Clearaudio performace with EAR tube phonostage). I will keep the Squeezebox but digital source will be next upgrade.

In the meantime I will lurk around looking at every shop's stock to see which brands I can find around :cheers:

 

[Roby]

I think it will be a bit longer journey for Roby :rofl:

That would be your fault......every time he thinks he knows what he wants, you introduce (tempt) him to something more exotic (expensive). This lengthens the time needed to gather up the money. :doh:

Nha...the unlucky part was meeting at the wrong demo (when I was listening to the AMS)....from that moment on nothing was the same anymore :dance:

I enjoy the quest....But it's true I want to get closer to my desission an start to enjoy the music :dance:

Anyway I'm easely tempted :rofl: no body's fault except my own :wall: an getting closer to the D-day I see I was able to put more money aside than I tought an quit easely So that opens possibilety's...An in they end I'm the one whohave to deside wat's best for me ;-)

Anyway Im getting tired of the search an I feel the need to downsize I still think the M6i have the upperhand. For the reasons I mentioned a few time's it's a great amp value performance butget it's unbeatable to my ears.... An it's an amp I can easely upgrade in the future for example an AMS.... What I mean is if I go for the Sugden wich is great it means its my final disision... an I wil be ussing it for years...an will not feel the need or want to go to an AMS or something els.

But for now I'm still patient an have a few options that I'm considering... even the separate combo of the m6 wich I hope to hear somday because afther 2 month's still no news of MF or my dealer.....wich is realy desapointing....(I'm going to give them a call right now BTW

So for the momment being there are still 3 winners I'm considering... (could be worse no?)

An only the TT choice is for 95% shure the Performance...

 

[Roby]

8) 8) 8) Just contacted MF an wonder they are chipping the seperate combo to my dealer today :cheers:

So planning a demo for next week somewhere I guess :bounce:

Maybe the 4th on my favorite list... :wall:

But here again if this is the final winner.... well the choice will be made in full consideration of every aspect, an it will be for a lot of happy music years as it is almost the same budget as the Sugden ( so no amp upgrades planed for years )

 

[acalex]

8) 8) 8) Just contacted MF an wonder they are chipping the seperate combo to my dealer today :cheers:

So planning a demo for next week somewhere I guess :bounce:

Maybe the 4th on my favorite list... :wall:

But here again if this is the final winner.... well the choice will be made in full consideration of every aspect, an it will be for a lot of happy music years as it is almost the same budget as the Sugden ( so no amp upgrades planed for years )

Cool! Ask them to prepare a TT also

So maybe after that I could have the AMS in Antwerp

 

[Roby]

I hope he keep's the AMS for the demo so we can compare the M6i the saparate an the AMS in the same demo on the same speakers ;-)

 

[Roby]

Anyway Im getting tired of the search an I feel the need to downsize

This should be : Anyway if I'm getting tired of the search an I feel the need to downsize.....

But I'm shure you all got that ;-)

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

sorry CNO for late reply.

1. Am I right in thinking the Slew Rate determines the Transient Response?.....if it doesn't, then what exactly is it?

correct. low slew rate -> fast reaction.

2. I have a very (very) peripheral knowledge of Phase Angle ie something to do with the phase swinging back and forth....and Crossovers. Can you offer a simple explanation, that's suitable for a luddite?

this one is a little bit more complicated. it's to do with easy/difficult speaker loads. everybody tends to pay attention to only impedance curve. whereas it's the combination of impedance and electrical phase what counts more. for instance you could have speakers with stable impedance at 4 Ohms and virtually no phase shift. and on the other hand you could have some nominal 8 Ohm speakers with varying impedance from 20 Ohms (woofer resonance frequency) down to 5 Ohms and with very wide phase shifts (they would usually not occur at impedance dips). and you may end up with a conclusion that the first speakers are easier on the amp because on one hand the first speakers present very stable load for the amp and on the other hand the second speakers' effective impedance dips well below 5 Ohms due to phase shifts which hamper amps performance considerably at frequencies where those wide shifts occur.

that's basically how it works in a nutshell. but if you want to dive a bit deeper into the problem I recommend you read this lengthy article. it explains the problem really well. it's post #10 in this thread:

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/speakers-lets-define-an-easy-load

 

[Roby]

:cheers: Afriend, music an wine What more to ask for a pleasant evening ;-)

So spend the evening with Acalex litening to the AMS, Jadis? lavardin.... :dance:

Wel for now I will just say tought are rumbeling my mind.... :? An I think the AMS made some progression.

The rest is for tomorow I need my beautysleep :rofl:

 

[Roby]

So here I have some time:

Still thinking what is best for me (what do I want…..)

After a nice learn full evening come to a few conclusions.

First of all I think we are very lucky to home demo such great amps J (tanks to Acalec an his dealer contact)

So I arrived a bit late, needed to get a CDP (witch we finally didn’t use ;-) )

So when I arrived Acalex was already fully enjoying the musical contest.

We started to listen to the Lavardin, It sounded beautiful an I have to say I was impressed by the capable RX 6 speaker witch I usually don’t like to much because I think they are a bit to bright.

There was plenty of bass an detail, but It was missing a bit space….

But to be honest I was a little to exited an wanted to hear the AMS. So we switched listening to same songs as we did on the Lavardin. An immediately we notice the difference More presence a wider soundstage bigger bass without being overwhelming it stayed tight an controlled in the way a personally like very much. An the gain of space give you more detail. But as it was late I started to think more about food than the music so w decide to grab a bite.

Back we listened to the AMS, we quickly came to the conclusion the weakest link was not only the speakers, they performed quit well but the phono stage. I’m saying this based on the experience I had testing the Nad PP3 an the vpls II ,difference there was amazing an here I’m shore we were missing impact an surly this came from the phono stage…(btw if there is time I will try to get a VPLS from my dealer to compare). Because somehow we preferred the sound of the SB on some tracks. Witch looking on the several demo’s we did is far from normal IMO…..

We decided to give the Lavardin a try again an honestly it was quite beautiful everything was there, but the AMS have it all a bit more.

We switched again to the AMS with the same song’s. At least for me it confirmed the feeling I had, it was just that warmer, that something more I looking for in music….

As I didn’t listen to the Jadis yet we decide to give it a try.

An it have to be said, It’s hard to spot a difference between those big boys.

We used the same song of “leonard cohen” I think.

To be honest I slightly preferred the Jadis on that song, but not much I just had the feeling the voice was more present this time. So best thing to do was to to try a song I really know by hard an love.

It almost make me rill each time I sit down to listen to it ‘Time in a bottle by Jim Croche’ (btw all the album is great listend so much to first by my father an now by my self that it is quit damaged L) first of all I loved the presentation the Jadis was giving to the song, but then again I missed some Presence….An if you keep in mind this is the kind of song that should be perfect for the Jadis! an still…..

So Time to switch again to the AMS . An yes again I much more preferred that It was not really a problem between the bass area or detail or warmed they performed astonishing even if it was different. It was more That I had the feeling The AMS have more impact, musical emotion, is more open to me it give you a wider sound stage. It was to me that the Instrument’s on the Jadis Where more stuked together Even if the biggest part here of what I was missing on the Jadis I attribute to the phonostage .

So My personal opinion It’s really hard to spot the difference between the Jadis an AMS except if you take out the characteristics of a tube amp but even than there is almost no difference, the Jadis can feel the breath of the AMS in his neck….

Anyway for me I think the AMS is an much more All-rounder, An for myself at least, will procure much more music joy, as I have a wide taste in music, but this is really a personal argument.

So for me yesterday I came a little closer to what I want…It’s know a matter of choice…between what I want an reason.

I mean AMS is expensive true. But I would not buy something else because it’s little cheaper cheaper …. More because it’s way cheaper like the M6i

I mean at the start I was planning to go for the M6i witch I still think would be a great choice an also the most reasonable…..

The separate combo would have been the next choice (depending if I really like it I’m still trying to find a moment to audition the kit) Who knows it might beat the AMS to my ears ??????(but then you’re pretty close to the Sugden budget…..???)

Everything more expensive well seems to be second choice compared to the AMS. I don’t see the point to downsize as it really coming budget wise, But then I do prefer the sound stage of the AMS way more……. An as finely I don’t think it’s reasonable but I can stretch it well, wy not?

I would regret any other purchase I think except the M6i.

An after all the AMS should normally be a lifetime purchase…..well I hope….An I would buy it with all my hard…

An an M6i I think I will upgrade in the future without problem for AMS, an put the M6i in my bed room LUXERY ;-)

All the rest I think would be to expensive to upgrade an I probably never will. Also I would probably think ‘what could have…..I had the money… damn.’

So yesterday was a big step to my decision If I have to put it in a number let say 75% chance I go for the AMS. An I would wait with the TT upgrade…. etc

So for now I’m still thinking in pro an contra’s.

I had a great music evening. Only regret would be the phono stage as I’m convinced The Performance Is much more capable than what we experienced yesterday, this is already proven during the demo we had in Antwerp, An oké I know Acalex would say the speakers where different. True but I’m convinced we could have much more lovly result here even on the RX 6 (don’t get me wrong it not bad at all, an better than a lot of stuff we heard in or live’s)

Secound thing is that we didn’t really give a chance to the Lavardin. Bud hey the 2 others are so lovly, IMO it’s realy not a fair completion .

So conclusion:

Ass you can guess my personal favorite an winner of yesterday night is the AMS…. :dance:

 

[CnoEvil]

We started to listen to the Lavardin, It sounded beautiful an I have to say I was impressed by the capable RX 6 speaker witch I usually don’t like to much because I think they are a bit to bright.

Back we listened to the AMS, we quickly came to the conclusion the weakest link was not only the speakers, they performed quit well but the phono stage.

An it have to be said, It’s hard to spot a difference between those big boys.

So My personal opinion It’s really hard to spot the difference between the Jadis an AMS except if you take out the characteristics of a tube amp but even than there is almost no difference, the Jadis can feel the breath of the AMS in his neck….

Anyway for me I think the AMS is an much more All-rounder, An for myself at least, will procure much more music joy, as I have a wide taste in music, but this is really a personal argument.

I mean AMS is expensive true. But I would not buy something else because it’s little cheaper cheaper …. More because it’s way cheaper like the M6i

I would regret any other purchase I think except the M6i.

I enjoyed reading about your experience. In some ways, your choice is easier than Acalex's, as your musical taste needs an amp with "all round" capabilities.

You also discovered what I have always believed ie. The importance of the source, and how a pair of speakers can be transformed by a great amp.

I also think your logic about which amp to buy is sensible....ie. Get the M6i, if sound per pound is the priority; but if a no compromise approach takes preference, then nothing less than the 35i will do (I did try to warn you!)....it really does give a great compromise between the strengths of both Valves and Solid State.

I await the next chapter with anticipation.

Cno

 

[Roby]

Cno maybe your right saying my choice is a bit easyer.

Because if I wanted to go down the tube road the Jadis would be number 1 on my list. So to be completlly honest I think the choice for him is harder becauss he is choosing between the bests of both word's. If he choose the Jadis An I choose the AMS we can have the best of both world's when we visit each other ...... 8)

For me it's more a practical question, do I want IMO the secound best know? or do I want to built my dream system over the comming few years. Including that I'm meby patiant now (even if it's really hard) in chosing the right amp for me, but I'm usualy

not yhat patiant....

At this momment I contantly thinking about it An I'm jumping tought's from:

Screw it I go get the AMS right now,To the tought to no I should wait a few more demo's an make a decision in Juin like the initial plan.

To the tought I schould take the M6i it's more reasonable I would have a top class system...better than most people I know an they already think it's crazy, except for Acalex of corse (even if that's not the issue for me)

 

[CnoEvil]

At this momment I contantly thinking about it An I'm jumping tought's from:

Screw it I go get the AMS right now,To the tought to no I should wait a few more demo's an make a decision in Juin like the initial plan.

To the tought I schould take the M6i it's more reasonable I would have a top class system...better than most people I know an they already think it's crazy, except for Acalex of corse (even if that's not the issue for me)

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. It was for very good reason that I mentioned the addictive quality of the 35i....once heard, the goal posts are moved for ever.

If my experience is anything to go by, you are better biting the bullet now (re the amp), even if speakers have to go on hold for a little. If you get the M6i, you will do your very best to convince yourself that the right decision has been made. This will keep you going for a while, but that little nagging voice is impossible to silence, and it will chip away at your resolve like the erosion of the coastline by the sea.

Eventually (sooner than you would believe), you will find yourself standing in your dealer's shop (as if drawn by some unexplainable force) with credit card (and M6i) in your hand, looking for a trade-in. This will prove a more costly route in the long run.

I could of course be wrong, but joining up with Acalex was always going to be a game of Russian Roulette!!

 

[Roby]

I could of course be wrong, but joining up with Acalex was always going to be a game of Russian Roulette!!

:wall: but no regrets here

Any way at this moment I'm listening On my NAD an 683' to Bob Dylan's album Oh my.

An it's f...ing sweet. Have to say on this kind of music that is instrumantaly not to chaged it's a pretty good match

My friend who is buying my amp will be really happy upgading from his Denon DAB 38 to this + he is buying 684's wich I suspect is a slightly better match because they are less powerhungry....

 

[Roby]

So went to the amp fight with alex yesterday....But thats not for me to tell....

This morning with not to much hours of sleep we went to the pereaux demo an it was fantastic :dance:

we listen to the 250i with build in phonostage & Dac an have to say can't really tell wich I prefer AMS or 250i so I disided to get the AMS for an home demo ;-) It's warming up now.....

 

[CnoEvil]

we listen to the 250i with build in phonostage & Dac an have to say can't really tell wich I prefer AMS or 250i so I disided to get the AMS for an home demo ;-) It's warming up now.....

Does that mean Acalex hasn't got it? :shifty:

 

[Roby]

It is the same one but it belongs to MF Benelux an is not for sale :-(

 

[Macspur]

Cno, I think these two are toying with us.

 

[CnoEvil]

Cno, I think these two are toying with us.

Ya think!!

 

[Roby]

Sorry guys not my call I'm shure you understand. :silenced:

Mascapur, I will talk about thz Pereaux a bit later For now I try to process all the info.

Just know that we both where really impresed (an I don't think we are easely impressed afther everything we had the chance to hear maybe we are getting spoiled) by this amp, It sounded superb a little less warm than the AMS but far from analitical like Alex could read in a review he found. True it's expensive 9K for a full opt (witch I think I can safley say we can bothe advice) Phono stage costing arround 1k an same for the dac witch unbelevable.

But for the rest I really want to compare bothe amp's on the same speakers before I can give you a serious opinion.

Because we listened to speakers the dealer make himself costig arround 14k an 25K the sound fantastic. But the look is not really to my taste.....

Ànyway I have to check with the dealer because he want to come to my place to make me compare the amp's on my speakers.

BTW AMS warmed up now it sound well RRRRRR :O still have to try other music because at this point only listened to P gabriel Scratch my back & B Dylan Oh my.....wich is not fair because for Dylan it was not warmed up....

Keep you posted