Marantz M-CR610: speakers decision

[skysounds]

Hi audio people!

Last year I posted a topic to get some advise on buying the Marantz MCR610. I bought it and I have been very happy with it. (thanks!)
I also asked for advise on buying new speakers. The Q Acoustics 2050i were recommended because they are easy to drive. I almost bought them but didnt because of their large size.
My old Sony speakers (found them here: http://www.orangedove.co.uk/sony-ss-nx1-speakers-n86.html) from a 12 years old miniset are still working but I'ts time for some better quality speakers.
The Sony's are not small, they are big shelf speakers (they are placed on the floor though..) I can't find anything about their sensitivity, but when I put it up too much I sure will hurt my ears. So, I'm wondering what's the deal with easy to drive speakers. Will they just go a lot louder? Don't really understand this part. If I have to put the volume on 24 instead of 18.. well what's the problem.. I don't think my Sony speakers are that sensitive, but they go loud enough.

My livingroom is not that small (36m2) but it has a long shape (11 m long). See here: http://nl.tinypic.com/view.php?pic=nq1l43&s=8#.VOuEMC7p9Ft
The red area is where the speakers are, next to the white cabinet. The opposite wall with couch is only 3.5m away. So the speakers need to just fill up the seating part of the livingroom, about 23m2 I think. I live in an apartment, so no party-volumes. Normal listening, background, sometimes a bit louder.
I have been reading reviews on speakers like q acoustics concept 20's, dali zensor 3's. But I first would like to more about the sensitivity - dB.

Thanks!

 

[davedotco]

Ok, there are a number of issues here.

Firstly the SS-NX1 is a simple easy to drive speaker that is quite sensitive.

Sensitivity of speakers is quoted as the level produced at 1 meter with 1 watt input. An average speaker will be typicall 87dB/watt at 1 meter. Among normal modern speakers 90dB/watt is considered quite sensitive, 84dB/w is fairly insensitive.

The 3dB differences in the above examples are important as a 3dB increase in level requires the amplifier to deliver twice the power. So the 84dB/watt speaker requires twice the power to play at the same level as the 87db/watt model, the 90dB/watt speaker will in the same way require half the power of the 87dB/watt model.

The Q Acoustics 2050i are a good choice as they are 93dB/watt, ie an amplifier such as the 30 watt MCR 610 will deliver the same output level into 2050i as a 120 watt amplifier into 'average' 87dB/watt speakers.

There is also the effect of 'percieved loudness', modest levels of distortion make speakers sound louder, so in general, better speakers are going to sound quieter than your Sonys, even if the 'measured level' is the same.

 

[Ketan Bharadia]

Hello. Sensitivity is simply how loud the speaker goes for a given input signal. It doesn't necessarily mean a more sensitive speaker is easier to drive. 'Ease of driving' is down to the speaker's impedance characteristics, and is just a way of defining how hard the amplifier has to work.

I wouldn't get too wrapped up in the specs. Both the Q Acoustics and Dalis should work well.

 

[skysounds]

Thanks both for explaining.
I understand why the 2050i's are a good choice. I believe they are 92dB, but still a big difference of course with the 87db of a normal/average speaker.
So, I also understand from reading on this forum that the zensor 3's are easy to drive even though they have 88db. Whereas speakers like the Audio Monitor BX2's are not as easy to drive, and they are 90dB.
So.. this has got to do with the empedance..

Will the zensor 3's then probably be as 'powerful' as my old Sony's?
How do you know actually they're easy to drive, is that because they came with a miniset?

Thanks

 

[davedotco]

Ketan is technically correct, though in practice most difficult to drive speakers are also low sensitivity. Sensitivity in modern two way speakers is primarily a function of the bass driver, this is the limiting factor. A speaker that is sensitive, yet controlled and low distortion is expensive, so for budget speakers this is a balancing act. There are other factors too, enclosure size, porting configurations etc. In short, higher sensitivity is a good thing unless, as can be the case, it is bought at the expense of bass extension, driver control and distortion.

Ease of drive reflects the impedance as seen by the amplifier, complex crossovers can create a load that varies wildely with frequency and demand more current than an amplifier can produce. This is particularly apparent at bass frequencies and around the crossover point where impedance variations are most notable. This can cause an amplifier to overload and distortion to rise, as the distortion is mainly heard at higher frequencies this is why some amp/speaker combinations sound bright wheras a different amp into the same speakers does not.

This is all quite complex and explains why you need to audition setups for yourself. With the MCR 610, try and keep the speakers at 67dB/watt or better and listen to them. It is usually obvious if the amp is not coping, bloated bass, overbright treble, it's not hard to hear. Remember, the imprtant thing is how the speaker interacts with the amp, that is what makes the real difference.

 

[skysounds]

Ketan is technically correct, though in practice most difficult to drive speakers are also low sensitivity. Sensitivity in modern two way speakers is primarily a function of the bass driver, this is the limiting factor. A speaker that is sensitive, yet controlled and low distortion is expensive, so for budget speakers this is a balancing act. There are other factors too, enclosure size, porting configurations etc. In short, higher sensitivity is a good thing unless, as can be the case, it is bought at the expense of bass extension, driver control and distortion.

Ease of drive reflects the impedance as seen by the amplifier, complex crossovers can create a load that varies wildely with frequency and demand more current than an amplifier can produce. This is particularly apparent at bass frequencies and around the crossover point where impedance variations are most notable. This can cause an amplifier to overload and distortion to rise, as the distortion is mainly heard at higher frequencies this is why some amp/speaker combinations sound bright wheras a different amp into the same speakers does not.

This is all quite complex and explains why you need to audition setups for yourself. With the MCR 610, try and keep the speakers at 67dB/watt or better and listen to them. It is usually obvious if the amp is not coping, bloated bass, overbright treble, it's not hard to hear. Remember, the imprtant thing is how the speaker interacts with the amp, that is what makes the real difference.

Indeed quite complex (you mean 87db instead of 67db right..?) I can read as much as I can online and try to understand as much as my brain want to understand lol, but in the end, it's my ears that are going to decide. So, I ordered the zensor 3's. I may test and return them.
I've been listening for many hours now. They have more than enough power for me, that's for sure. And it's a great thing to be able to audition them at home. This way I'm also discovering more about what I like in sound/speakers.
I like their warmth, but sometimes they sound like they're in a cabinet (is that just my ears). Like they're not so open. Or maybe that's because they are new.. And like with most speakers I put down the bass with equalizer in itunes and in menu of the Marantz (I know, I must be crazy). So, maybe I could even do with the Zensors 1? Or maybe Concept 20..? I am really not a bass person, just like openness and clarity. Will see if I can audition 1 of those too.

 

[davedotco]

Power is not all about loudness, sometimes a lack of power is noticeable by a lack of dynamics, the inability to get the music 'out of the boxes' and into the room. Sound familier....?

This is a highly contentious and subjective issue, I hear this proplem with a lot of systems so my requirements are for more powerful amplifiers. A lot of people think I am crazy and do not have the issues I have, perhaps you do?

In another (current) thread I detail how an Arcam A19 driving Zensor 5s really did not work for me and it took a big Cambridge 651w power amplifier to really get things moving. Not a big difference in terms of published spec, but a huge in real world performance.

 

[skysounds]

Power is not all about loudness, sometimes a lack of power is noticeable by a lack of dynamics, the inability to get the music 'out of the boxes' and into the room. Sound familier....?

This is a highly contentious and subjective issue, I hear this proplem with a lot of systems so my requirements are for more powerful amplifiers. A lot of people think I am crazy and do not have the issues I have, perhaps you do?

In another (current) thread I detail how an Arcam A19 driving Zensor 5s really did not work for me and it took a big Cambridge 651w power amplifier to really get things moving. Not a big difference in terms of published spec, but a huge in real world performance.

Right, ok that makes sense. It's not with all music, it actually really depends on what kind of music and what kind of production. With some music the speakers sound really open and clear.
I will audition the concept 20's and see if I find those more overall open. I also would like to check out B&W 685 S2, but maybe it's not a good idea. They have more base than the acoustics I believe..

 

[davedotco]

As I said earlier, this is a very subjective issue.

My own thoughts would be to use simpler, easier to drive speakers rather than the alternatives you mention, but that would be to satisfy my requirements, which may not be the same as yours.

I think the Concept 20 is a decent speaker given its cost, but personally I would want a more capable amplifier, I guess you will just have to try some options and see what works for you.

There is a british company that makes an interesting small speaker that looks to be quite sensitive and easy to drive and is about the right price.

It has been mentioned on this forum a couple of times but I can't recall the name, I think they are Yorkshire based and sell direct.

Maybe someone can remember.

 

[matthewpiano]

I've often said on here that the Zensor 3s are great speakers but need real care in being positioned clear of room boundaries to avoid tonal effects. Worth experimenting with this but if you can't give them any more space then I'd be looking to Q Acoustics which make an excellent match with the MCR610.

At this time I'd be tempted to wait for the new Q 3020i standmounts. The 2020i are impressive enough, but the improvements on the new model should really help to maximise performance. The Concept 20s are worth the money and excellent speakers but they benefit massively from the extra £200 required for the matching stands which share the gelcore construction.

Another fine match with Marantz is KEF, and the Q100s would make a great partner with the 610. They are currently only £250 at Superfi and a giveaway bargain at that price. Some of the best balanced speakers under £1k in my experience.

 

[skysounds]

I have enough room to position speakers. On both sides of tv cabinet there's enough space. I can't have them standing in the middle of my livingroom of course. How much space do they need? I read they should be positioned with no 'toe-in'.

I checked the KEF Q100s too, but removed them from my list, because they are 86dB. I think I should not look below 87dB.

I don't exactly know where to find easier to drive speakers. From reading on this forum and online, it seems the zensor 3 and concept 20's are two of the easier to drive bookshelf speakers.

Right now my brain is going crazy. I'm almost starting to think.. should I look for another amp or at least audition one.
Just checked what the Marantz costs now. And it's €100 more expensive, that can help with selling it... But omg, selling it so soon.

And the alternatives, there's not that many. I could kind of live without the cd player. I know about the Cambridge Minx Xi which seems to have a better amp (but no airplay.. why!?) and the Denon Heos amp, which is a lot stronger, but with D class amp, which I read will not be the best combination with every kind of speaker. Hmm.

 

[davedotco]

You are overthinking this. Mathewpiano knows a lot about this sort of kit, listen to his advice.

Kef Q series are easy to drive and mathew knows his stuff, having owned the '610 he will have a good idea of what works and what doesn't.

Otherwise just work on the positioning with the Zensor 3s.

 

[matthewpiano]

Q100s are not hard to drive and both my Rega Brio-R and Exposure 1010 amps, both only around 50wpc, drive and control them comfortably. Whilst these are better than the MCR610, the Marantz is a capable unit and won't have any issues. Certainly the KEFs have very quiet cabinets for a speaker of their price and consequently a very clear and balanced sound.

However, an audition is a must and do give the Qs a go too so that you can be confident in your decision.

 

[skysounds]

You are overthinking this. Mathewpiano knows a lot about this sort of kit, listen to his advice.

Kef Q series are easy to drive and mathew knows his stuff, having owned the '610 he will have a good idea of what works and what doesn't.

Otherwise just work on the positioning with the Zensor 3s.

Haha, yes I probably am! I actually feel more positive about the zensors 3 now. I put them even further from the wall/cabinet. I think their sound is more laidback than I'm used to, but it's a very nice warm sound and I like how the speakers pay 'attention' to vocal. I think that 'box' thing is not so much there anymore.
Just the bass, which I already put down. I'm sure nobody on this forum is like this, but in certain songs with some electronica production or just lower bass, the speakers just buzzz. Im must be the only one here complaining about that

Question, do the B&W 685 have less bass than the zensors 3? And the KEF Q series?

 

[skysounds]

Q100s are not hard to drive and both my Rega Brio-R and Exposure 1010 amps, both only around 50wpc, drive and control them comfortably. Whilst these are better than the MCR610, the Marantz is a capable unit and won't have any issues. Certainly the KEFs have very quiet cabinets for a speaker of their price and consequently a very clear and balanced sound.

However, an audition is a must and do give the Qs a go too so that you can be confident in your decision.

I forgot about the looks of the KEF Q100 speakers (Also important). Great looking speakers.
What about the Q300s? Or do they like the zensors 3 have more bass than their little brother. I do prefer a smaller speaker, but if the speaker will fill the room easier because of the bigger size/sensitivity, I would go for the bigger one.
Also, do you find the KEFs sound to be warm? I realise, that I like this quality very much about the sensors 3.

Forgot to mention. I do not live in the UK, but the KEF Q100 are not expensive here (Holland) same price as zensors 3.

 

[matthewpiano]

Q100s are not hard to drive and both my Rega Brio-R and Exposure 1010 amps, both only around 50wpc, drive and control them comfortably. Whilst these are better than the MCR610, the Marantz is a capable unit and won't have any issues. Certainly the KEFs have very quiet cabinets for a speaker of their price and consequently a very clear and balanced sound.

However, an audition is a must and do give the Qs a go too so that you can be confident in your decision.

I forgot about the looks of the KEF Q100 speakers (Also important). Great looking speakers.What about the Q300s? Or do they like the zensors 3 have more bass than their little brother. I do prefer a smaller speaker, but if the speaker will fill the room easier because of the bigger size/sensitivity, I would go for the bigger one.Also, do you find the KEFs sound to be warm? I realise, that I like this quality very much about the sensors 3.

Forgot to mention. I do not live in the UK, but the KEF Q100 are not expensive here (Holland) same price as zensors 3.

The Q100 is a tight, rhythmic and tonally balanced speaker with a tuneful and textured rather than booming bass. It creates a very believable and convincing stereo image and is a very involving listen with no tonal overhang to blur the boundaries (which the Zensor 3 can suffer from in some situations).

I have also owned the Q300s thought this was a good while ago when I used them with an Arcam A18 amp. I have also heard them with the Brio-R so can compare to some extent. I much prefer the Q100 as it is more balanced and controlled sounding and has a much more holistic sounding midrange, with voices really beautifully placed and reproduced. The Q300 does produce more bass, but my personal feeling is that this is at the expense of other parts of the frequency range, something I've read from others on other forums as well. However, the 300s have received far more press attention than the smaller speaker.

I play a vast range of music - lots of classical (orchestral, solo piano, opera, choral, chamber), progressive rock, jazz, folk - and find that the Q100s cope with it all very convincingly. Very often I can close my eyes and not hear where the actual boxes of the speakers are because the sound hangs so beautifully in the listening space. My other speakers are Dynaudio DM2/6s which I like very much, but they don't vanish in the same way as the KEFs and aren't as rhythmically tight, though they do have a meatier and weightier sound than the KEFs and a divine treble thanks to their superb tweeter design.

 

[skysounds]

So, next speaker: the Concept 20 have arrived.. I have been listening for some time to them today.
Cute speakers, very warm sounding with singer-songwriter, sensitive music etc. Gives that 'intimid' sound.
However with louder type of (bands)songs, I'm hearing a small speaker and the music is just not so 'alive'. Even with an older song like 'the chain' from fleetwood mac, it's lacking a fuller/bigger sound which the song needs. The zensor's have this. My old sony's have a bigger sound too.
Is this the limitation of the speaker (in comination with the marantz) or their size?

I wonder how this is going to be with the KEFs Q100?

 

[davedotco]

I have tried to explain this.

The MCR combination is a great unit in many respects but it is not enough to drive and control more difficult speakers. In the scale of things the Zensor 3s are, probably about average, ie not really easy to drive but not that difficult either.

The Concept 20s are harder to drive, so you get the small, in the box effects you describe. It's that simple.

I don't know the Q100s, but as an entry level speaker it would be silly if Kef make them hard to drive, Mathewpiano rates them and he knows his stuff at this level, give them a go.

The old Sony speakers are larger more sensitive and easy to drive, of course they give a bigger sound, not exactly accurate or refined though.

 

[matthewpiano]

The more I read of your reactions to the Zensors and the Concept 20s, as well as your old Sony speakers, I am thinking you would be best sticking with the Zensors. If it is a big, bold, impressive sound you are after the KEFs aren't going to do that as they major on balance, tightness and refinement. The Zensors are one of the few budget speakers that do big and bold without being irritating or wildly out of balance. My days of wanting initially impressive, outwardly big and bold sounding speakers are long gone and the refinement, tonal accuracy, imaging and balance are far more important to me, hence enjoying both the KEFs and Dynaudios so much. I suspect neither will give you what you appear to be seeking.

 

[davedotco]

The more I read of your reactions to the Zensors and the Concept 20s, as well as your old Sony speakers, I am thinking you would be best sticking with the Zensors. If it is a big, bold, impressive sound you are after the KEFs aren't going to do that as they major on balance, tightness and refinement. The Zensors are one of the few budget speakers that do big and bold without being irritating or wildly out of balance. My days of wanting initially impressive, outwardly big and bold sounding speakers are long gone and the refinement, tonal accuracy, imaging and balance are far more important to me, hence enjoying both the KEFs and Dynaudios so much. I suspect neither will give you what you appear to be seeking.

Listen to the man sky....!

At this level and with the MCR you are not going to get perfection, work out what is most important too you and buy whatever gives you most of it.

 

[SteveR750]

If this helps

For by far the majority of hi fi amps that are voltage amplifiers, the volume control on your amp is effectively setting the voltage applied to your speakers.

Sensitivity will dictate how far you have to turn the volume control (what voltage is required) to achieve a specific sound pressure level.

An "easy" load won't draw lots of current at that volume (voltage) setting

A "difficult" speaker will have impedance dips that draw lots of current from the amplifier for the same volume setting (voltage)

So, an amp can run out of puff trying to drive insensitive speakers, even if they are an easy load. It can also struggle to drive a sensitive speaker that has big impedance swings. The latter is usually more of a problem, as a cheaper amp will struggle with the current demand and clip the signal, introducing harmonic and non harmonic distortion (which usually sounds harsh, grainy, bright etc)

 

[davedotco]

Just to point out that your volume control explanation is for comparisons using the same amplifier, different amplifiers have different volume 'laws' to impress the unwary.

I'm sure you know this, but a lot of people still think that the way a volume control operates is an indicator of the power capabilities of an amplifier.

Voltage clipping and current limiting are not quite the same thing, the inability to swing sufficient current can cause problems, dynamic compression say, without the amplifier actually clipping.

Other factors come into play too, slew rate limiting, the audibility or otherwise of different distortion spectra, just a couple of examples where an amplifier may be audibly compromised without actually clipping.

All of this reinforces the fact that the important thing for the enthusiast to understand is that the amp/speaker interface is critical and best evaluated by listening.

 

[chebby]

Boston Acoustics A26.

 

[skysounds]

Thanks all so much for trying to make an audio dummi understand

Aha, I now get that the concept 20's are not that easy to drive. Its too bad, because I do really enjoy them with lots of music + love their size and their looks! Kind of wishing I had a system that could drive them. With the music that sounds good I absolutely prefer them to my Sonys. The concepts pay more attention to details, sound more intimid. But yes, I do listen to louder (soft rock) types of music (live recordings) too, but I don't think I'm just just looking for speakers that can go loud and sound bold. Also, the Zensors 3 have too much bass for my liking. That's a typical quality of a bold speaker.

Just a small question: would the NAD D7050 drive speakers like the concept 20 properly?

 

[skysounds]

If this helps

For by far the majority of hi fi amps that are voltage amplifiers, the volume control on your amp is effectively setting the voltage applied to your speakers.

Sensitivity will dictate how far you have to turn the volume control (what voltage is required) to achieve a specific sound pressure level.

An "easy" load won't draw lots of current at that volume (voltage) setting

A "difficult" speaker will have impedance dips that draw lots of current from the amplifier for the same volume setting (voltage)

So, an amp can run out of puff trying to drive insensitive speakers, even if they are an easy load. It can also struggle to drive a sensitive speaker that has big impedance swings. The latter is usually more of a problem, as a cheaper amp will struggle with the current demand and clip the signal, introducing harmonic and non harmonic distortion (which usually sounds harsh, grainy, bright etc)

Thanks for your clear explanation!