Mains Supply - Amps

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Hi All,

I am trying to decide whether I have just wasted £30 (with the P+P) on purchasing a Russ Andrews 'Super Clamp' 2 way mains anti surge / spike adaptor.

I bought it for added safety for plugging my amp directly into the wall socket and not via my Tacima or Monster HTS1000 conditioners. It looks cheap, it feels cheap and when I opened it up it merely has a resistor and a couple of capacitors soldered to the brass internals. Don't get me wrong if it saves my precious amp from a lightning strike then brill - money well spent.

I was wondering though what others use or do you not bother and just plug it straight into the wall socket ?

I use a dedicated 6mm spur to supply the power straight from the consumer unit, if that has a bearing on any reply.

Many thanks, Si.
 
I love honesty even when it just confirms that little voice in my head that said - **sser you just paid how much !

Thanks guys and I take it you just plug your equipment straight in then ?

Regards, and now I'm off to find that box and returns address.
 
Big Aura:I think I got one of those for £1.45 from Woolies before it went under. Didn't have the Russ Andrews sticker on it, tho...

emotion-2.gif
 
soulton:I use a dedicated 6mm spur to supply the power straight from the consumer unit, if that has a bearing on any reply.
As you've already invested in a 6mm dedicated spur for your equipment, my thoughts would be that any kind of extension block or adaptor is really a backward step. Tacima/Monster/Belkin type extensions have their place, but a better method would be to widen out your spur with extra wall sockets (MK "Logic Plus" unswitched are generally regarded to 'sound' the best), having the spur cable looped through to as many wall sockets as you need, a separate wall socket for each piece of equipment. You should notice an improvement.

If you feel you need some form of mains protection, something like the Isotek Neoplug provides both power factor correction and decent 3-pole surge/spike protection. Whilst there are many other similar devices providing one or the other, the NeoPlug provides both correction and protection in adequate measure for a reasonable £50ish. These plug into a spare socket next to - not in-line - with your equipment.
 
The extension blocks that i have used for the last few years to connect our equipment is from Wilkinson stores at around £5 each (with no loss in performance). Job done!
emotion-2.gif


Thanks

Rick @ Musicraft
 
Is there really any need for this type of protection?? You will have to
forgive my limited understanding but doesn't the main fuse (located
before your meter) and the fuse in the actual amp protect from surges??
 
MUSICRAFT:wireman:MUSICRAFT:...(with no loss in performance)
I thought you sold exposure and Chord amps?I am not sure what you mean.
Rick - I thought you would notice quite significant differences between cheap extensions, decent extensions, and a dedicated spur or ring. As an electrician, I mention exposure and Chord because, of all the brands you sell, I know the difference different quality extension leads and/or a dedicated mains spur/ring can make to these two brands' amplifiers especially well. I was just surprised to see your comment that a cheap £5 extension lead offers "no loss in performance".
 
Messiah:Is there really any need for this type of protection?? You will have to forgive my limited understanding but doesn't the main fuse (located before your meter) and the fuse in the actual amp protect from surges??
Fuses generally protect against catastrophic failures - short circuits for example. A surge protector limits short (spike) voltage peaks present in most mains supplies (usually created by switching other loads on the same supply), which can cause premature failure in electronics. Power factor correction is to do with an imbalance created on the mains supply by inductive loads - usually motors (fridges etc) and transformers (even your own AV or Hi-fi). These electrical issues are well documented in electricians and electronic manuals - there is a lot of information elsewhere here on this forum and on the web in general.
 
wireman:MUSICRAFT:wireman:MUSICRAFT:...(with no loss in performance)
I thought you sold exposure and Chord amps?I am not sure what you mean.
Rick - I thought you would notice quite significant differences between cheap extensions, decent extensions, and a dedicated spur or ring. As an electrician, I mention exposure and Chord because, of all the brands you sell, I know the difference different quality extension leads and/or a dedicated mains spur/ring can make to these two brands' amplifiers especially well. I was just surprised to see your comment that a cheap £5 extension lead offers "no loss in performance".

Hi wireman

Thanks for your reply.

Yes, i sell amplifiers from Exposure, Chord Electronics, NAD, Naim, ATC and Yamaha. However i have tried many after market specialist mains related products available on sale over the last few years and frankly none of them tried have justified the extra cost involved over the supplied mains cables with components or over a standard extension block.

Some of them did nothing at all and the others that did altered the performance for the worst. Hence why at present i continue to use the standard mains cables supplied on all the components and where i need the use of an extension blocks (in the first instance i always plug components directly into wall sockets) i happily use Wilkinsons at around £5 each. These are a very modest outlay and i have never noticed any loss in performance regardless of components or location used.

If i can't tell a difference and i am personally not prepared to pay RRP and own item(s) myself than i don't think i should recommend it to my clients. After that the ball is in my clients court and i'll respect their choice.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft
 
MUSICRAFT:If i can't tell a difference and i am personally not prepared to pay RRP and own item(s) myself than i don't think i should recommend it to my clients. After that the ball is in my clients court and i'll respect their choice.
Hi Rick. I fully agree with your sentiment. As an electrician, some of my work involves Clients paying me to install dedicated mains circuits for their AV and hi-fi systems. I can honestly say that in each and every case, there was a marked improvement over whatever it was they were using before to hook-up their systems to a wall socket. Most notable improvements using a good clean low impedance dedicated mains circuit have been with Naim systems (many), Bryston 4B's, a Chord SPM1200 (notably because of it's switch-mode power supply), and my own 4 Exposure 16 mono amps (which at a total of 4000kva would fry any extension lead!). Having said that though, for those on a limited budget, there's much to be said for even a simple Tacima for those unfortunate enough to have to live in an electrically noisy area. Given you have a variety of other shops, pubs, restaurants and even a pretty massive infirmary using a variety of electrically noisy equipment in the immediate vacinity of your shop, I'd have thought there'd be some merit in at least some of the products on offer?
 
wireman:

MUSICRAFT:If i can't tell a difference and i am personally not prepared to pay RRP and own item(s) myself than i don't think i should recommend it to my clients. After that the ball is in my clients court and i'll respect their choice.
Hi Rick. I fully agree with your sentiment. As an electrician, some of my work involves Clients paying me to install dedicated mains circuits for their AV and hi-fi systems. I can honestly say that in each and every case, there was a marked improvement over whatever it was they were using before to hook-up their systems to a wall socket. Most notable improvements using a good clean low impedance dedicated mains circuit have been with Naim systems (many), Bryston 4B's, a Chord SPM1200 (notably because of it's switch-mode power supply), and my own 4 Exposure 16 mono amps (which at a total of 4000kva would fry any extension lead!). Having said that though, for those on a limited budget, there's much to be said for even a simple Tacima for those unfortunate enough to have to live in an electrically noisy area. Given you have a variety of other shops, pubs, restaurants and even a pretty massive infirmary using a variety of electrically noisy equipment in the immediate vacinity of your shop, I'd have thought there'd be some merit in at least some of the products on offer?

Hi wireman

No i have not yet seen any merits of the after market mains related products that i have tried which have been on sale over the last few years in my shop or in other locations. I've also got Derby train station, the main sorting Post Office, the Westfield shopping centre, railway signaling, rail works etc. all close by as well.

Btw, you don't happen to live close by? I ask because you are familiar with the buildings, works etc. around my shop.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft
 
Hi Rick. Well that's surprising, but if that's your experience, I have to respect that. I know your area in passing only, I don't live nearby - I live nearer the London end of the London Road, albeit I can see the A6 from my house! Google maps are a wonderful thing!
 
Well said Musicraft & the other realists herein.
( Pauses to prepare to poke stick into hornets nest . . . )
Still makes me cringe when I see the amount of money some people part with to try and make a vast difference to the mains supply at the last metre or two after it has travelled probably hundreds if not thousands of miles down ordinary "non-super" high tension cable that is more like Russ Abbott build quality than Russ Andrews.

As soon as it hits the hifi component it gets converted into DC anyway where it is at the mercy of the internal circuitry of the unit itself.
But this is a very controversial topic as everyone knows and either you believe to perceive a difference or you don't.
Whatever makes you happy I guess, but the £35,000 Yamaha mixer and £80,000 rack of PowerSoft amplifiers I use everyday are plugged in using the supplied mains cables into normal wall sockets and they sound just fine, thank you.
The hifi industry is riddled with "Emperor's New Clothes" type wonder products, some make a slight difference, some none at all.
There are so many other factors that really influence sound quality in a real way, even moving loudspeakers mere millimetres can have a profound effect on the sound imagary in some instances.
Analogue speaker cables of course do affect the sound due to the laws of physics when it comes to resistance et al, so no skimping there kids, but mains cables and super expensive limited edition digital cables over sturdy well made standard cables?

Bah, humbug!

I will now assume a ducking postion and keep my head well down to avoid the inevitable barrage of flac (no pun intended) but that's what makes discussion here fun and after all, the above is merely my opinion but shared by many I'm guessing.
 
Messiah:Is there really any need for this type of protection?? You will have to forgive my limited understanding but doesn't the main fuse (located before your meter) and the fuse in the actual amp protect from surges??

I think fuses are a safety requirement. Designed to reduce the risk of death by electrocution and prevent house fires they might as a byproduct help protect equipment but that is not why they are required. That is the reason the UK has fuses in plugs as well as in equipment while Europe does not. In Europe they use radial circuits with 16A MCBs and the socket outlets and flexible cords are able to carry the over current without damage until the MCB trips. In the UK the ring main has a 32A MCB and will carry over twice that possibly for several minutes before tripping, with out a fuse in the plug the power cord could catch fire.
 
Tonya:

Well said Musicraft & the other realists herein.
( Pauses to prepare to poke stick into hornets nest . . . )
Still makes me cringe when I see the amount of money some people part with to try and make a vast difference to the mains supply at the last metre or two after it has travelled probably hundreds if not thousands of miles down ordinary "non-super" high tension cable that is more like Russ Abbott build quality than Russ Andrews.

As soon as it hits the hifi component it gets converted into DC anyway where it is at the mercy of the internal circuitry of the unit itself.
But this is a very controversial topic as everyone knows and either you believe to perceive a difference or you don't.
Whatever makes you happy I guess, but the £35,000 Yamaha mixer and £80,000 rack of PowerSoft amplifiers I use everyday are plugged in using the supplied mains cables into normal wall sockets and they sound just fine, thank you.
The hifi industry is riddled with "Emperor's New Clothes" type wonder products, some make a slight difference, some none at all.
There are so many other factors that really influence sound quality in a real way, even moving loudspeakers mere millimetres can have a profound effect on the sound imagary in some instances.
Analogue speaker cables of course do affect the sound due to the laws of physics when it comes to resistance et al, so no skimping there kids, but mains cables and super expensive limited edition digital cables over sturdy well made standard cables?

Bah, humbug!

I will now assume a ducking postion and keep my head well down to avoid the inevitable barrage of flac (no pun intended) but that's what makes discussion here fun and after all, the above is merely my opinion but shared by many I'm guessing.

Hi tonya

Your welcome.

Btw, good post.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft
 
Rick, there is no doubting your reason for not rating mains products and you Tonya. But a few questions if you dont mind

Rick, have you noticed a difference with mains products (cable, conditioners etc) in other peoples houses? I understand that your shop is in an area where you would expect noisy mains, but maybe it does not. I have found no correlation between where I have lived and how effective my RA The Silencer mains conditioner works.

Tonya, on the above point, all mains conditioners and cables need to do is sort the mains as it goes into the hifi kit. The condition of the mains 'thousands of miles down the road' does not matter. You also appear to contradict yourself. You say moving a speaker millimetres can have a sound effect,and you go on to aknowledge that some products make a slight difference, but surely both will only have small effects. So why accept one and not the other? In any case small effects get hifi people all excited and prone to use exaggerated words to describe them!

I do agree with you that the money spent and some advertising claims by manufacturers can beggar belief.
 
Hi there idc!

Thanks for your constructive comments!

Moving a speaker millimetres (or any distance) will make a difference, good or bad, because soundwaves must obey the laws of physics.
Take a look at top end loudspeakers ina large concert, they are usually in a line array, in other words shaped like a banana, even that slight difference in the firing angle is enough to affect the timing of the sound reaching your delicate lugs.
Speaker placement is absolute paramount, try some experiments and see for yourself!
Pay attention to speaker height and distance/angles from the walls/corners of your listening area.
Try them without the front covers (note - only if you have no kids!!)

As for after-sales trinkets that actually do make a real difference in sonics, IMHO, a good sound insulation system to stop any vibrations going back to the playback deck will reduce the amount of error correction applied by the unit and can very clearly be heard.
Make sure the case screws are tight on your amp and think twice before using lighting dimmers as they can produce unholy amounts of noise.
This is one of the only good arguments where a mains conditioner will improve your system to eliminate noise in a dirty mains supply.
As for super mains cables delivering cleaner or more power to the hifi, erm, I don't think so.
Neither do any of the engineers that I work with think so and one of them is an absolute nutcase who still swears by his £10,000 custom gold plated DAT recorder.
Plugged in with a normal mains cable.

Analogue cables such as phono or speaker also have an effect, again the laws or resistance and frequency loss come into play.
I personally use Monster cabling, certainly not the most expensive solution but it does the job.
Where digital is concerned, be it optical or coaxial, a sturdy well made (not defect or damaged!) cable will deliver whatever it's fed at the speed of light or thereabouts.

A Spyder calibration tool for monitor tweaking if you're serious, or a good THX disc.
I use the one made by Monster Inc and it's pretty spot on.
(No, not the Disney guys, the cable guys!)

Speaker spikes, yep, they can have a pronounced effect on some loudspeakers

Hanging heavy curtains instead of having bare walls in the listening area will completely change the accoustics of the room.

So my personal tips for improving audio & video in the home without spending oodles of cash are quite simple really : use good quality analogue cables ir required, keep the lengths of said cables as short as possible.
Take care to route all signal cables as far away from mains cable runs as to avoid induction.
Try to position your wireless router at a good distance from your audio/video kit.
Wherever possible, bi-amp your main speakers, the effect is astounding.
Check and double check your crossover frequencies when using subwoofers.
Keep all your electronics well ventilated and dust free, especially TV monitors as heat buildup will affect sound quality as the properties of components change dramatically with temperature and also may cause a fire hazzard if caked in crapola.

But hey, if you, dear reader, believes he/she can hear or see a difference then fine.
My wife has difficulty in seeing the difference between BBC iPlayer and 1080p.

My point basically is there are potentially huge improvements that can be acheived with little or no outlay just by experimenting.
Does a turntable sound far better floating in a bath or Mercury instead of an IKEA granite chopping block?
Will someone actually market a "hi-fi" fuse to match a 13 amp plug? (I bet someone will).

At the end of the day, it's all about the music.

As the good people at Quad said, "The perfect audio amplifer is a straight wire with gain".
 
idc:
Rick, there is no doubting your reason for not rating mains products and you Tonya. But a few questions if you dont mind

Rick, have you noticed a difference with mains products (cable, conditioners etc) in other peoples houses? I understand that your shop is in an area where you would expect noisy mains, but maybe it does not. I have found no correlation between where I have lived and how effective my RA The Silencer mains conditioner works.

Tonya, on the above point, all mains conditioners and cables need to do is sort the mains as it goes into the hifi kit. The condition of the mains 'thousands of miles down the road' does not matter. You also appear to contradict yourself. You say moving a speaker millimetres can have a sound effect,and you go on to aknowledge that some products make a slight difference, but surely both will only have small effects. So why accept one and not the other? In any case small effects get hifi people all excited and prone to use exaggerated words to describe them!

I do agree with you that the money spent and some advertising claims by manufacturers can beggar belief.

idc, I use Tacima plus upgraded powercords throughout and will swear blind they make a massive and demonstrable difference yet some of my friends (well, most actually) say they can't hear any difference at all. I respect their opinions.

The reason I mention this, and possibly I'm reading things into your comments, is that you seem to have some interest in casting doubt upon what a reputable and, in my opinion, amazingly honest HiFi dealer has said and comments by another forum member. I don't understand why.

If they don't hear any difference, fair enough. No need to make a big deal, move on. I don't agree with them either, and it won't stop me upgrading my powercords again in the future. The wife might have a different take on that, however
 
I am skeptical about any improvement in performance of (good quality) amplifiers, CD players, TVs, etc arising from "improved" mains supplies. Surely the capaciters in the units PSU's should be able to deal with minor variations and noise.

However, might not induction from unshielded and possibly noisy mains cables affect nearby speaker leads or other poorly shielded interconnects? Complete separation of cables is not always possible.

Maybe in some cases where people have noticed improvements after upgrding or conditioning their mains supplies all that was really needed was to shield all their mains leads? Just a thought.

Andrew
 
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