Mains cables, lets put an end to this nonsense.

[JoelSim]

The most important thing is to enjoy your music. A few years back I studied my music as I listened, trying to get every single last breath to perfection. These days I just put it on and listen.

Whether or not a cable increases performance will always create debate. If you so desire then buy one, it's no different to a weekend golfer buying a new putter, it is at best a very marginal gain.

Having said that, if you love your hifi, why the **** not? It shows you care :shhh:

 

[andyjm]

I have noticed a new crop of "yes I can, no you can't" threads over the last few weeks regarding cables.

Rather than descend to playground taunts, in the spirit of Sir Isaac Newton, I suggest we apply the scientific method. My hypothesis is:

"In a domestic setting*, with a HiFi** amplifier, it is impossible to differentiate between different mains cables*** in a properly conducted blind listening test"

* A normal domestic setting, not where an arc welder is plugged into the same circuit.

** An amplifier from a recognised HiFi manufacturer

*** Cables have to be adequately specified to carry sufficient current according to the amplifier manufacturers requirements.

I suggest we perform an experiment to check my hypothesis.

I will PM the more prominent cable supporters to invite them to a properly conducted ABX test, and suggest that they bring their favourate cable along to include in the test. For myself, I will bring the cable that I use for my Krell amplifier that came free with a Dell computer many moons ago. Used because it is nice and flexible and just the right length.

I had originally thought of using my listening room for the test, but my wife is not keen on me inviting (in her words) "a bunch of HifI wierdos from an internet forum" over, so I will try to find neutral territory. There are a few dealers who post on here who seem to have an open mind on these things (and I guess don't sell mains cables), so I will try them. If anyone is interested in hosting, please let me know.

I will mug up on how to conduct a proper ABX test, how many tests are required to be statistically significant, and the correct format of the test. Any pointers welcome. I will post the test protocol so we can all agree, and then post the results of the tests.

Interested?

An update for those still following this. I have drawn a blank on venues so far, but I have discovered that it is very cheap to hire a recording studio for an afternoon, particularly if you dont want to do any recording. I am prepared to cover the cost of hire, but I am rather compromising my original requirement that the test takes place in a domestic setting.A commercial recording studio in Londion is clearly not a domestic setting.

Any thoughts welcome, and ideally any offers of venue.

 

[Overdose]

With such obvious benefits that cables clearly give, I'm quite surprised that the vendors of such wonders don't want to help demonstrate their effectiveness.

:roll:

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Dispite so many armchair critics and doubters I will look forward to your reviews Andy. To gather a group of enthusiasts to examine the cable issues is a great and generous effort. Hope u can work it out. I for one would love to hear that a few doubters and a few believers have heard/not heard significant differences in a testing environment. Even if its not a 100% scientific and some will argue that the testing is invalid for many odd reasons, it would still have validity for many. Good luck & thanks.

 

[spiny norman]

Haven't read this thread completely, but wouldn't it be easier to do a series of needle drops or whatever you call them of the same thing with different mains cables each time, then put it up on a website so people could download and listen for themselves?

See, now you're talking. If it were done in a sufficiently controlled way, not only could we listen to them, we could ABX them in foobar or diff them in that software somebody was talking about recently.

In fact, we could do that with all sorts of cables (drums fingers on chin)...

Although possibly quite a good way of bringing the Copyright Avengers down on the site: http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=117359

 

[John Duncan]

I'm sure someone could come up with some copyright-free audio...

 

[spiny norman]

Haven't read this thread completely, but wouldn't it be easier to do a series of needle drops or whatever you call them of the same thing with different mains cables each time, then put it up on a website so people could download and listen for themselves?

See, now you're talking. If it were done in a sufficiently controlled way, not only could we listen to them, we could ABX them in foobar or diff them in that software somebody was talking about recently.

In fact, we could do that with all sorts of cables (drums fingers on chin)...

Although possibly quite a good way of bringing the Copyright Avengers down on the site: see here

(Especially if the site posts it twice - see below)

 

[spiny norman]

I'm sure someone could come up with some copyright-free audio...

From a recent waxing?

 

[John Duncan]

I'm sure someone could come up with some copyright-free audio...

From a recent waxing?

They have waned.

But there is no original material so somebody would get on their high horse, no doubt...

 

[TrevC]

Dispite so many armchair critics and doubters I will look forward to your reviews Andy. To gather a group of enthusiasts to examine the cable issues is a great and generous effort. Hope u can work it out. I for one would love to hear that a few doubters and a few believers have heard/not heard significant differences in a testing environment. Even if its not a 100% scientific and some will argue that the testing is invalid for many odd reasons, it would still have validity for many. Good luck & thanks.

Just for the record, I am not a doubter. I know exactly what the result of an accurate test will be. :dance:

 

[Thompsonuxb]

I would genuinly love to attend this gathering...if only to point and laugh loudly at the doubters, but the venues so far from me.

It would be an interesting test if the kit used was upto scratch.

Pity the mag could not organise something.

 

[ifor]

I would genuinly love to attend this gathering...if only to point and laugh loudly at the doubters, but the venues so far from me.

It would be an interesting test if the kit used was upto scratch.

Pity the mag could not organise something.

Do you mean "the doubters" or "the fundamentalists"? I don't think you'll ever change the fundamentalists like TrevC. The doubters and sceptics, maybe. The real test of course is whether the "believers" can consistently tell the difference. Having said that, all these mains cable and mains conditioner claims depend on there being "bad mains". If the chosen venue doesn't have "bad mains" only the fundamentalists can win. A speaker cable event is more likely to be relevant.

 

[mykspence]

Mr Duncan, do you think mains cables can make a noticeable difference? Bearing in mind that Whf lead us to believe that they do.

 

[fr0g]

Mr Duncan, do you think mains cables can make a noticeable difference? Bearing in mind that Whf lead us to believe that they do.

I think it's an unfair question on a public forum.

I once managed to get a senior salesman in a Well known Hi-fi chain to agree that speaker cables make next to no difference. He wouldn't have said it on a public forum though.

 

[mykspence]

Mr Duncan, do you think mains cables can make a noticeable difference? Bearing in mind that Whf lead us to believe that they do.

I think it's an unfair question on a public forum.

I once managed to get a senior salesman in a Well known Hi-fi chain to agree that speaker cables make next to no difference. He wouldn't have said it on a public forum though.

Life isn't fair, but if he doesn't give a sensible answer people will question the credibility of WHF even more. Nice idea for a test though OP, shame it'll never happen though as there's too much at stake.

 

[TrevC]

I would genuinly love to attend this gathering...if only to point and laugh loudly at the doubters, but the venues so far from me.

It would be an interesting test if the kit used was upto scratch.

Pity the mag could not organise something.

Take a course in electronics and find out how things like amplifiers work. You will then be equipped with the knowledge that changing a mains cable can make zero difference to the performance of anything. (providing it meets electrical standards). :dance:

 

[proffski]

In the past I used screened mains cables which were bought in to use with medical equipment like EEG and ECG machines. In some cases it was important to connect the earth at one end only, and then it mattered which end sometimes! Connecting the screening at both ends had very variable results depending on the Hi-Fi and where it was being used. Ferrite cores always improved things dramatically where interference was an issue!

Having TVs and stuff using switch mode power supplies on a different spur also helped.

 

[John Duncan]

Mr Duncan, do you think mains cables can make a noticeable difference? Bearing in mind that Whf lead us to believe that they do.

I think it's an unfair question on a public forum.

I once managed to get a senior salesman in a Well known Hi-fi chain to agree that speaker cables make next to no difference. He wouldn't have said it on a public forum though.

It's a perfectly fair question. I don't work for WHF and am allowed to have different opinions from them (cf: Cyrus).

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of them making a difference in certain circumstances but have never observed them doing so, so got rid of the couple that I have bought in my time and use standard kettle leads, preferring instead to spend my money on stuff that makes a tangible - to me - difference to my enjoyment of music (red or white).

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Amazes me how some try to sabotage threads only wanting to force their own opinions. Both sides of the fence. Worried that their own beliefs are challenged. I thought your aim was simply to organise a group for listening tests. Hope u succeed but Im too far away. Hope u can test some speaker cables etc too. Crowd funding?? Again, hope it works out Andy. Any dealers out there too brave enough to host an event?

 

[mykspence]

It's a perfectly fair question. I don't work for WHF and am allowed to have different opinions from them (cf: Cyrus). I wouldn't rule out the possibility of them making a difference in certain circumstances but have never observed them doing so, so got rid of the couple that I have bought in my time and use standard kettle leads, preferring instead to spend my money on stuff that makes a tangible - to me - difference to my enjoyment of music (red or white).

John, thank you for being honest. Would it be possible to get a comment from one of the WHF chaps who has put in writing that he has heard differences?

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Is this another mains cable thread or a 'lets set up a test' thread?

 

[John Duncan]

John, thank you for being honest.

Were you expecting me to lie?

 

[mykspence]

No John, but it wouldn't have surprised me if you'd been vague or ingnored it like the WHF contributors are doing.

 

[TrevC]

In the past I used screened mains cables which were bought in to use with medical equipment like EEG and ECG machines. In some cases it was important to connect the earth at one end only, and then it mattered which end sometimes! Connecting the screening at both ends had very variable results depending on the Hi-Fi and where it was being used. Ferrite cores always improved things dramatically where interference was an issue!

Having TVs and stuff using switch mode power supplies on a different spur also helped.

What problem did it help with?

 

[John Duncan]

it wouldn't have surprised me if you'd been vague or ignored it

Wow, thanks.

I'm welling up...