KEF LS50 disappointment :(

[CnoEvil]

@Cno what amp are you using with the LS50s?

I'm driving them with an Arcam AVR600, mostly in Stereo Direct, but can bring in the Sub if necessary.

 

[npoguy]

First of all, I like it better than my Parasound equipment. BTW, I've got a friend who uses Van Alstine amps and he's trying to make the switch to digital. He was so impressed with the NAD, that he's thinking about buying one to run his Rogers speakers--that I'd like to hear!

I know we all struggle with terms and what they mean, but I would describe the NAD as a bit more forward and quicker than the Parasound. What I was referring to about the shortcomings are mostly ancillary sorts of things for me: first, the volume control is very basic, the display sort of fades in/out from one level to another so you don't have the precision of a more expensive amp. Second, it looks great, but it's not going to fool anyone that it's more than a $400 or $500 amp. And finally, it struggles at very loud volumes--but only at the kind of volumes that I wouldn't listen to for long periods. Example, every now and then my young daughter and her friends come up and want to dance to Spotify tunes. They turn it up way beyond what I would and I can hear the clipping, but it doesn't bother them in the least and I can live with the limitations. That may change down the road, but for now I'm using the savings to buy music and pay the arm & leg it costs for Qobuz!

 

[tk1111]

First of all, I like it better than my Parasound equipment. BTW, I've got a friend who uses Van Alstine amps and he's trying to make the switch to digital. He was so impressed with the NAD, that he's thinking about buying one to run his Rogers speakers--that I'd like to hear!

I know we all struggle with terms and what they mean, but I would describe the NAD as a bit more forward and quicker than the Parasound. What I was referring to about the shortcomings are mostly ancillary sorts of things for me: first, the volume control is very basic, the display sort of fades in/out from one level to another so you don't have the precision of a more expensive amp. Second, it looks great, but it's not going to fool anyone that it's more than a $400 or $500 amp. And finally, it struggles at very loud volumes--but only at the kind of volumes that I wouldn't listen to for long periods. Example, every now and then my young daughter and her friends come up and want to dance to Spotify tunes. They turn it up way beyond what I would and I can hear the clipping, but it doesn't bother them in the least and I can live with the limitations. That may change down the road, but for now I'm using the savings to buy music and pay the arm & leg it costs for Qobuz!

That's very encouraging! the downsides which you highlighted are not of interest. I leave in an apartment building, and I can't play loud even if my wife and baby would allow my to.

On the other hand, small space, no heat, and wifi streaming are way more important. All that I need is to know that at low / mid volume, it will allow to LS50 to operate well.

 

[npoguy]

It does...for me. I can't stress that enough because there are some on the forum who might violently disagree with my opinion. I think you said you can return the amp if doesn't work out, so why not give it a shot?

One final thing, don't form an opinion about the speakers until you run them in for 50-75 hours at a minimum. After that, you can start to think about pitching or keeping!

 

[raian]

i am sure you have heard this before.. but seriously change your amp.. av amps are not quite as good as a proper stereo amp.. unless you are using your speakers for a 5.1 home theater system.. get a stereo amp with atleast 75 watts.. LS50 is a wonder speaker.. connect them with a very high end amp and you'll notice how good they are.. but for now skip the high end part and start with a decent stereo amp.. try Hegel/Musical Fidelity/Cyrus/Electrocompaniet/Emotiva.. and i can go on with the amp suggestion.. i even think Marantz is a good match for LS50.. try ebay and get a second hand if you dont mind.. you also should look into good rigid stands and a proper placement judging your room..

there is another thning i really should mention.. how many hours have you played through your speakers? i hope you are well aware of the 'break in' term.. give them 300 hours of play and see anything changes.. the LS50's tend not to sound good right out of the box.. so give it time..

the part where you mentioned that you are missing something.. i'd say its the bass.. get a sub.. yes, i feel for LS50 a sub is a neccessary addition.. though with the right set up and placement those little boxes give you plenty bass but i guess not enough atleast for my taste.. but, sub-woofer sould be your last priority..

trust me your speakers are a gem.. i upgraded my system few months back and LS50 was my first choice.. in the end i got carried away with Dynaudio Focus 160.. as much as i love my current set up not a day goes by i regret not buying the LS50.. for me there is just something really special about those LS50's.. i'd recommend, keep the speakers.. have patience.. build a nice system around those speakers..

and welcome to the world of hifi.. a lot won't make sense but when you get it right, the amount of satisfaction you'll get listenig to music nothing can beat that.. happy listening.. :cheers:

 

[mitoda]

Not surprised at all... I recently audienced the LS50 in NYC at a dealer... I was not impressed at all, I'm not saying it was bad, I'm just saying it smells to me there might be some nationalistic bias on the reviews, including this site towards made in U.K products. Please don't take as a insult towards U.K though, I'm just saying it's just too suspicious that all product of the year on what hi fi are UK based brands.

[/b]

Marketing can never replace yourself audition speakers, I cannot be happier with my Dynaudio's DM 2/7 paired with Marrantz PM6004. I auditioned them in a store in Kansas City and immediately fell in love! When I came back to do research, they happened to be product of the year in 2010 in this site, but lately, I do not agree on most product of the year.

My recommendation would be to return the speakers and audition the ones you like.

Good luck

 

[npoguy]

First of all, I'm in the US! Secondly, you might want to look at Stereophiles component of the year for 2013!

 

[npoguy]

To help you...http://www.stereophile.com/content/stereophiles-products-2013-overall-component-2013

 

[npoguy]

ugh, couldn't get the link to work! Well, you get the point!

 

[jcbrum]

Here's the same link, that works.

(bigboss told me how to do it

)

JC

 

[npoguy]

Here's the same link, that works.

(bigboss told me how to do it

)

JC

Thank you!

 

[the record spot]

i am sure you have heard this before.. but seriously change your amp.. av amps are not quite as good as a proper stereo amp.. unless you are using your speakers for a 5.1 home theater system.. get a stereo amp with atleast 75 watts..

Let's see if I understand this correctly. You're telling me that your stereo amp, with its 75 watts all in, is going up against my Onkyo, with seven discrete amp channels, each putting out about 135w and the stereo amp's the better one? It's Christmas, not April mate.

AV amps are comfortably as good as their stone age integrated ilk. I gave up on stereo amps when I found the performance of amps like my current one was more than capable of doing it all. So, one Onkyo TX-NR818 later, I'm a happy bunny. Had it for six months now and it's been a terrific buy. Havne't missed any of my former stereo amps at all. I do rather just wonder when the rest of the hifi crowd will "get it". Going by the above, that's some way off yet...

 

[Frank Harvey]

Wow, this thread really seems to be steam rollering along!

I've not read the last 40 odd posts as I want to get down to some movie watching, but all I'm going to say is that much of the disappointment/negativity towards the LS50 (or for any other product for that matter) is down to dealers. I appreciate that KEF wanted the LS50 available to all of their dealers so that everyone has access to them, but if it were my decision they'd be in limited stores just like the R Series. A product like this - which has been produced to show the company's ability to design and produce a very high quality loudspeaker at an affordable price is being undermined by dealers who can't demonstrate them properly.

The R Series has been very successful, and very well written about by the press and by buyers/owners alike. I put this down to them only being available through a select number of dealers (between 40-50, as far as I know). Very good dealers know how to get the best out of the products they sell.

I appreciate there are other variables at work here (personal preference), and people buying them blind to use with their existing amplification, but on the whole, many people who have not liked them have heard them with amplification that doesn't do them justice, and are left wondering what all the fuss is about.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Let's see if I understand this correctly. You're telling me that your stereo amp, with its 75 watts all in, is going up against my Onkyo, with seven discrete amp channels, each putting out about 135w and the stereo amp's the better one? It's Christmas, not April mate.

AV amps are comfortably as good as their stone age integrated ilk. I gave up on stereo amps when I found the performance of amps like my current one was more than capable of doing it all. So, one Onkyo TX-NR818 later, I'm a happy bunny. Had it for six months now and it's been a terrific buy. Havne't missed any of my former stereo amps at all. I do rather just wonder when the rest of the hifi crowd will "get it". Going by the above, that's some way off yet...

To be fair, many AV receiver output ratings are false or misleading. Many of the 'official' ratings are measured into one channel driven, which is nowhere near representative of what you'll get when watching a 7.1 movie.

Also, the OP's AV receiver is a particularly old one, and isn't great with music. Some recent ones are pretty good, but there's a big two channel resurgence going on at the moment, partly fuelled by people moving back to vinyl, and partly by people leaving AV behind (for whatever reason). Soundbars are taking over AV, and many people would rather have a discreet soundbar for TV watching, and a separate and better hi-fi system for their music.

 

[plastic penguin]

Surely one size doesn't fit all. Understand these LS50s have a reputation (mostly positive), but does that mean any speaker below £1500, by comparison, is pants?

 

[shep1968]

Wow, this thread really seems to be steam rollering along!

I've not read the last 40 odd posts as I want to get down to some movie watching, but all I'm going to say is that much of the disappointment/negativity towards the LS50 (or for any other product for that matter) is down to dealers. I appreciate that KEF wanted the LS50 available to all of their dealers so that everyone has access to them, but if it were my decision they'd be in limited stores just like the R Series. A product like this - which has been produced to show the company's ability to design and produce a very high quality loudspeaker at an affordable price is being undermined by dealers who can't demonstrate them properly.

The R Series has been very successful, and very well written about by the press and by buyers/owners alike. I put this down to them only being available through a select number of dealers (between 40-50, as far as I know). Very good dealers know how to get the best out of the products they sell.

I appreciate there are other variables at work here (personal preference), and people buying them blind to use with their existing amplification, but on the whole, many people who have not liked them have heard them with amplification that doesn't do them justice, and are left wondering what all the fuss is about.

Hi David. As you probably remember i came for a demo with you a couple of weeks ago and preferred the sound of these to the Tannoy DCT6. Having had a very quick listen to the Audiolab CDQ and power amp with you i have decided that it is either that or the Naim 5 combo i will get. Which in your opinion will drive the LS50's better and although subjective would they be more suited to? We liked the sound of the Naim but am concerned that the placement of the speakers in my house, close to a wall, 1.5 metres apart, will not suit them. Are there any other speakers that you would recommend for these two systems? I cant really go much bigger than i have now which is B&W 685's. I'll be back over shortly to listen again.

 

[CnoEvil]

Surely one size doesn't fit all. Understand these LS50s have a reputation (mostly positive), but does that mean any speaker below £1500, by comparison, is pants?

Agreed......but the point I believe David is trying to make, is that in order to hear how they can sound, the LS50s need properly set up and driven, or they can sound pants.

The problem as I see it, is that the good reviews stem from a knowledgeable reviewer who has ensured optimum conditions....then when people read all the adulation, they are bought blind on the sure knowledge that they will be brilliant.....and then often stuck on the end of an inappropriate system, in far from ideal conditions.

 

[gregvet]

I appreciate that what the speakers sound like to me in my room has no actual bearing on what you are experiencing, but I have to say that what you (the OP) are describing is very different to my experiences with the LS50's.

I had to change my previous speakers because they didn't sound as good when we moved into our new place, with much bigger rooms. I was dubious that the LS50's would be much better, but it wanted to try them so I bought them blind. I still had my old speakers (Spendor SA1's) so was able to compare them properly, over a period of time.

Although I love the old speakers, I am constantly amazed by what the little KEF's are capable of. They are better in almost every aspect, particurly the frequency extremes, without sacrificing anything in the midrange. They also manage to be incredibly detailed without every sounding bright (except with the very worst recordings of course). I am running them from a cyrus system, on proper stands, with a little free space behind them BTW. They cope with our 35 square metre room much better than anything so small has any right to!

I can only assume that you aren't hearing what I am hearing, and that this must be because of some combination of room acoustics, poor positioning, poor amp/source, or some other variable. The speakers are capable of great things, so either you need to change the variables causing issues, or you need to change to speakers more suited to your environment and amp.

Only you can decide

 

[plastic penguin]

Surely one size doesn't fit all. Understand these LS50s have a reputation (mostly positive), but does that mean any speaker below £1500, by comparison, is pants?

Agreed......but the point I believe David is trying to make, is that in order to hear how they can sound, the LS50s need properly set up and driven, or they can sound pants.

The problem as I see it, is that the good reviews stem from a knowledgeable reviewer who has ensured optimum conditions....then when people read all the adulation, they are bought blind on the sure knowledge that they will be brilliant.....and then often stuck on the end of an inappropriate system, in far from ideal conditions.

Isn't that the same with all speakers? Even my old RS6s, even though they had a 91db 6ohm spec, need a s*** hot amp to make the most of them.

As regards these reviewers recommendations - no disrespect to WHFI S&V - they have recommended Arcam A19. Not heard it but only 50 watts per channel, are you really getting the ultimate from a tricky speaker?

Having owned Arcams around that price point and heard practically all the DIVA range and Alpha + FMJs, and I generally love the brand but they aren't the gutsiest of amps around.

 

[CnoEvil]

Isn't that the same with all speakers?

To a degree.

Some speakers are a lot fussier than others with regard to the stands they are placed on, and how much they reveal about the upstream equipment. I see the LS50s as mini-reference monitors. I know how good they are, as I can directly compare them with Kef Reference.

Like Gregvet, at times I am staggered at how "big" they can sound, and how large a soundstage they can conjure up......the fact that there are diametrically opposite descriptions of them, tells me how sensitive and neurotic they can be.

 

[plastic penguin]

Isn't that the same with all speakers?

To a degree.

Some speakers are a lot fussier than others with regard to the stands they are placed on, and how much they reveal about the upstream equipment. I see the LS50s as mini-reference monitors. I know how good they are, as I can directly compare them with Kef Reference.

Like Gregvet, at times I am staggered at how "big" they can sound, and how large a soundstage they can conjure up......the fact that there are diametrically opposite descriptions of them, tells me how sensitive and neurotic they can be.

Don't doubt the competence of the LS50s. The only thing that puzzles me is that a £650 50 watt amp as the ideal partner. :? But then you are powering yours either thru a six grand amp or a high end receiver. No doubt my TB2s would sound a whole lot better a Leema Tucana.

If the LS50s are that tricky then the Leema Pulse, Naim XS, Roksan Caspian is a much better choice than a £650er.

 

[CnoEvil]

Don't doubt the competence of the LS50s. The only thing that puzzles me is that a £650 50 watt amp as the ideal partner. :? But then you are powering yours either thru a six grand amp or a high end receiver. No doubt my TB2s would sound a whole lot better a Leema Tucana.

If the LS50s are that tricky then the Leema Pulse, Naim XS, Roksan Caspian is a much better choice than a £650er.

I totally agree.

They can sound "acceptable" with the right budget amp, but need something much more substantial to hear what they can really do.

 

[davedotco]

Don't doubt the competence of the LS50s. The only thing that puzzles me is that a £650 50 watt amp as the ideal partner. :? But then you are powering yours either thru a six grand amp or a high end receiver. No doubt my TB2s would sound a whole lot better a Leema Tucana.

If the LS50s are that tricky then the Leema Pulse, Naim XS, Roksan Caspian is a much better choice than a £650er.

I totally agree.

They can sound "acceptable" with the right budget amp, but need something much more substantial to hear what they can really do.

This strikes me as a perfect description of most of the modern systems I hear, particularly at the budget level. People discuss the virtues of different speakers but have never heard how capable they can be due to their choice of amplifier.

I find that odd.

 

[JamesMellor]

You're not coming over as arguementative , hope I'm not eithier , and I see nopoguy is living very happily with the d3020 and the LS50's so there you go .

What is confusing now when I think back is why he said he had a pair of somethings , I can't remember the speaker , at home that he could bring in on the friday or sat' if I wanted to come back , but I was flying home on the Sat and didn't fancey going shopping on black friday , the confusing part is why he didn't wire up a set of LS50's , maybe out of stock ?

Also maybe it's the 4 ohm part of the 4 ohm / 86 dB's he was worried about

James

 

[CnoEvil]

This strikes me as a perfect description of most of the modern systems I hear, particularly at the budget level. People discuss the virtues of different speakers but have never heard how capable they can be due to their choice of amplifier.

I find that odd.

I am not at all surprised.

After coming from an iPod with cheap headphones or a mini hifi, a first budget system, no matter how badly put together, usually sounds better during the demo. Then it might seem logical, that if (at a later date) you want a bigger / better sound, you need bigger / better speakers.

The advent of the internet with its vast array of info and its bargains, mean that the advice from a good dealer is often bypassed, and a random collection of 5* bargains are thrown together, where a successful outcome is often a complete lottery.

It is only by experiencing how well cheaper speakers can sound with an expensive amp, that one's perspective begins to change.