Hi ErikM Glad you like the R300
I would be very interested to know what the rest of your system is please.
Regards Tonky
I would be very interested to know what the rest of your system is please.
Regards Tonky
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The R300 are in a system that is comprised of a Rega Elicit amp, a W4S Dac 1, a Sonos zoneplayer, the R300 are augmented by a REL Q201.. Power cords and PLC are all Shunyata, cables are Cardas Golden Cross and Synergistic Research Digital, speaker cables are DH Labs Q10 BiWire ( I needed something reasonably compact.. This system is I hate to say in my Kitchen/Family room area ( this isn't my main system BTW) I added the REL because the room is about 18"x40" and we party in there a lot and I wanted real bass punch.. I will say the R300 do bass fine my themselves though, and in a normal room would do great.. here's a link to recent review http://www.tonepublications.com/review/kef-r300-bookshelf-speakers/
I kinda agree 
as much as i would like to love the ls50...i cant, must be the amp i paired it with. Its a rega cd player with a rega brio. I reckon the amp is far under the level of the ls50. On the other hand, with the same amp and source, i would much much much prefer the q acoustic concept 20 and ma rx2 :wall:
In the end, my friends choice is the concept 20 paired with the regas and chord chameleon cables.
as much as i would like to love the ls50...i cant, must be the amp i paired it with. Its a rega cd player with a rega brio. I reckon the amp is far under the level of the ls50. On the other hand, with the same amp and source, i would much much much prefer the q acoustic concept 20 and ma rx2 :wall:In the end, my friends choice is the concept 20 paired with the regas and chord chameleon cables.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
kingsap said:
From a presentation point of view, I'd say that the Concept 20's are the next best thing to the LS50 - not as good, but similar sounding. There's also the new Monitor Audio Silver 1 which sits inbetween the LS50 and Concept 20.
Hi-FiOutlaw
Well-known member
This has been one of the more interesting posts about the Kef LS50, and given that I'm a new owner, I decided to add my impressions / questions here, rather than start a new thread.
I bought a new pair of the LS50 about a week ago. It is connected to my mac mini via optical cable through a Peachtree decco2. Like the OP, I must also admit that I'm somewhat dissapointed with the speakers. I simply fail to see what the raving reviews are about. Simply put, I haven't experienced anything special.
How did I ended up with the KEF LS50? I went speakers shopping, and after hearing multiple options, the one that really moved me was the Harbeth. I enjoyed both the P3ESR as well as the Compact7. My living room is rather big (40x40) with hardwood floor and 2 openings, but I don't really have a place for full standers, so the Compact7 is not really an option.
As I was researching further the P3ERS as nearfield speaker, I came across the LS50, and the reviews were glowing. Many readers commented how it sounds better than the Harbeth, and I was tempted by the size and look. The fact that it is cheaper, also made a difference, and I decided to take the chance, and I ordered it directly from KEF.
The biggest problem, however, is that I never had the chance to play the Harbeth in my apartment, so now I have no clue if the dissapointed is caused by the speaker, room accoustic, speaker placement or electronics.
To me, on some tracks more than other, it sounds muddled/colored. In tracks such as Pink Floyd the great gig in the sky, there's no "sparkle", and the sound feels compressed. This is when played via uncompressed flac files. The same track played on headphones (Weston W4) is significantly better.
I tried moving the KEFs arround (I don't have stands), increasing/reducing distance from the back wall. I placed and removed the plugs. I also tried placing them on my computer desk as well as on a heavy cabinet. Nothing made a big improvement. I just ordered isoaccoustic stands to see if these make a difference. Reading reviews, I've seen that im not the first to use the KEF in such setting.
Natuarlly, I'd like to believe that the problem is my integrated, but I can't grasp why/how such device can "color" the sound. In this forum as well as others, people say that the KEF needs quality amp. I am not experiencing any distortion / clipping, so it's unclear to me how would a better / more powerful amp improve the sound. Furthermore, a popular magazine reviewed the LS50 with a NAD D 3020, and reported amazing sound quality. The NAD D 3020 is nothing but powerful.
Should i even explore a different integrated, or should i come to term that it's the speaker, and sell it?
I bought a new pair of the LS50 about a week ago. It is connected to my mac mini via optical cable through a Peachtree decco2. Like the OP, I must also admit that I'm somewhat dissapointed with the speakers. I simply fail to see what the raving reviews are about. Simply put, I haven't experienced anything special.
How did I ended up with the KEF LS50? I went speakers shopping, and after hearing multiple options, the one that really moved me was the Harbeth. I enjoyed both the P3ESR as well as the Compact7. My living room is rather big (40x40) with hardwood floor and 2 openings, but I don't really have a place for full standers, so the Compact7 is not really an option.
As I was researching further the P3ERS as nearfield speaker, I came across the LS50, and the reviews were glowing. Many readers commented how it sounds better than the Harbeth, and I was tempted by the size and look. The fact that it is cheaper, also made a difference, and I decided to take the chance, and I ordered it directly from KEF.
The biggest problem, however, is that I never had the chance to play the Harbeth in my apartment, so now I have no clue if the dissapointed is caused by the speaker, room accoustic, speaker placement or electronics.
To me, on some tracks more than other, it sounds muddled/colored. In tracks such as Pink Floyd the great gig in the sky, there's no "sparkle", and the sound feels compressed. This is when played via uncompressed flac files. The same track played on headphones (Weston W4) is significantly better.
I tried moving the KEFs arround (I don't have stands), increasing/reducing distance from the back wall. I placed and removed the plugs. I also tried placing them on my computer desk as well as on a heavy cabinet. Nothing made a big improvement. I just ordered isoaccoustic stands to see if these make a difference. Reading reviews, I've seen that im not the first to use the KEF in such setting.
Natuarlly, I'd like to believe that the problem is my integrated, but I can't grasp why/how such device can "color" the sound. In this forum as well as others, people say that the KEF needs quality amp. I am not experiencing any distortion / clipping, so it's unclear to me how would a better / more powerful amp improve the sound. Furthermore, a popular magazine reviewed the LS50 with a NAD D 3020, and reported amazing sound quality. The NAD D 3020 is nothing but powerful.
Should i even explore a different integrated, or should i come to term that it's the speaker, and sell it?
BigH
Well-known member
tk1111 said:
It could be your amp. which seems only 40W @ 6 Ohms and 1% THD. ESp. with your room size and the LS50s are not the most sentive speakers at around 85DB 8 Ohms. Also I think LS50s need stands and some space around them. I heard the Peachtree lacks sparkle.
I really don't understand why spend more than 750 £ to buy a orrible to see little speaker like this
and pretend it sound like a normal size and design bookshelf or equivalent floorstand,
like Mordaunt Aviano , B&W 685/684, Klipsch rf 52/62 and so on...( these all cost less,
awesome look, construction quality and have more than 90 db of efficiency) :
like Dante Alighieri says: Chi è causa del suo mal, pianga se stesso...!
and pretend it sound like a normal size and design bookshelf or equivalent floorstand,
like Mordaunt Aviano , B&W 685/684, Klipsch rf 52/62 and so on...( these all cost less,
awesome look, construction quality and have more than 90 db of efficiency) :
like Dante Alighieri says: Chi è causa del suo mal, pianga se stesso...!
BigH
Well-known member
GCE said:I really don't understand why spend more than 750 £ to buy a orrible to see little speaker like this
and pretend it sound like a normal size and design bookshelf or equivalent floorstand,
like Mordaunt Aviano , B&W 685/684, Klipsch rf 52/62 and so on...( these all cost less,
awesome look, construction quality and have more than 90 db of efficiency) :
like Dante Alighieri says: Chi è causa del suo mal, pianga se stesso...!
Can't agree about the B&W 685, on looks, sound or sensitivity, don't know the others. But it important to match your components before buying, too many just go on reviews..
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
That's a big room. How far as you sitting away from them?
I would see if you can get along to a dealer and hear the LS50s with an amp like you have, and then try a better quality one and see what you think.
I would see if you can get along to a dealer and hear the LS50s with an amp like you have, and then try a better quality one and see what you think.
i was under the impression that if the volume is low, and theres no distortion. than increasing amp size would not make a difference.
that being said, i do need to think how i can test that myself. i guess that a loaner would do. any thing that i can pick at best buy? they have a good return policy.
that being said, i do need to think how i can test that myself. i guess that a loaner would do. any thing that i can pick at best buy? they have a good return policy.
Kef (GP Technologies) simply don't make great speakers anymore.
I've had the misfortune over the years to have owned KEF Coda's, Crestas, Qs and iQs (having not owned anything better before then I wasn't to know!). They make very pretty, over priced speakers, with mediocre component quality.
Just phone KEF and ask for the price on a replacement drive unit for the LS50s, you may be unpleasantly surprised! (I did this with my KEF Q3s, a £450 floor stander, and reply was near £25.00!)
It's a real shame as, years ago, KEF were the go-to people for drive units (TS27s B110s and the like).
As someone said, rip it up and start again I guess.
I've had the misfortune over the years to have owned KEF Coda's, Crestas, Qs and iQs (having not owned anything better before then I wasn't to know!). They make very pretty, over priced speakers, with mediocre component quality.
Just phone KEF and ask for the price on a replacement drive unit for the LS50s, you may be unpleasantly surprised! (I did this with my KEF Q3s, a £450 floor stander, and reply was near £25.00!)
It's a real shame as, years ago, KEF were the go-to people for drive units (TS27s B110s and the like).
As someone said, rip it up and start again I guess.
BigH
Well-known member
tk1111 said:
Yes it does make a difference and IMHO the LS50s are not good at low volumes, they need some driving to get them going, I think this could be your problem.
If you don't have stands what are the speakers on?
BigH
Well-known member
AlbaBrown said:
Sounds about right if thats £25 each, if speakers cost £450 in shops then you have to take 50% off for dealer and VAT, so that leaves about £225 for the manufacturer, takes some more off for cabinets, £60? does not leave much does it.
tk1111 said:
Here are some of the problems that I see:
- A very large area and pretty small speakers.
- An amp that isn't powerful enough to drive these speakers, to properly fill this area.
- Good, heavy speaker stands are vital
- Room acoustics may be playing a role if there isn't some rugs and soft furnishings to deaden the reflections.
- If the floor is suspended, it will be adding to the problems.
- Buying blind on reviews, especially when you've heard what you like.
Don't be fooled by the price, as the LS50s are little "reference" speakers, and will only sound as good as the way they are fed and set up. They are also not miracle workers, and even with everything sorted, won't fill a room that size, without a Sub.
You would be better looking at the R300s, if floorstanders are out of the question....but they will also need a better amp to keep the bass under control.
All amps colour the sound to some degree, and if the LS50s are sounding muddled, it will be mostly down to the amp, and possibly somewhat down to the source. Are you using the valve switched in, or out?
You are at a crossroads, and the last thing you want to do is throw good money after bad. No small monitor is going to fill a 40' x 40' room properly without the aid of a sub.
No matter what speaker you buy, you need to be thinking about the above points.
What is your budget for trying to correct this?
The problem is that the few dealers in the area that carry the KEF LS50, don't carry Peachtree.
I might go later today to hear the KEF LS50 in store with few different receivers - The ones that I am curious about are: Arcam A19, Naim, Bryston, and the NAD D3020 - at least these are some that people were impressed with.
I guess that I can also take the Decco2 with me to the store.
I might go later today to hear the KEF LS50 in store with few different receivers - The ones that I am curious about are: Arcam A19, Naim, Bryston, and the NAD D3020 - at least these are some that people were impressed with.
I guess that I can also take the Decco2 with me to the store.
BigH
Well-known member
tk1111 said:
In that case take your amp. along, most dealers are happy for you to do that. Those are not receivers but amplifiers, the ARcam A19 is meant to work but maybe a bit underpowered for your room, same for NAD. I would try a Roksan Kandy K2 if they have one. Are you in the UK or USA?
CnoEvil said:
Thanks for the response. I agree that there are many things that can be done. It would have been easier if I had the Harbeth p3ESR playing in my apartment, this way I'd be able to state if the problem is the room accoustic or the speaker.
To answer this question I am planning the following:
1. Got to a KEF dealer and hear the LS50 when it is running in a proper room with proper amp.
2. Ordered the IsoAccoustic desktop stands - it's based on reviewes, but I can return them if they won't make a difference. - Full stands are not an option - I have a 6m baby in the apartment.
3. I tried switching the valve on/off on the decco2 - didn't make much of a difference.
CnoEvil said:
Just so I'll be clear about that - at 50%, the volume is loud enough that I can't increase it further. Furthermore it sounds off, even when I am sitting on the speakers. Given that, would you still suspect the amp?
CnoEvil said:
Indeed, and there's no easy answer it appears. If I knew that the KEF are great sounding speakers, and the issue is the room, than I'd keep them, realizing that all small speakers would sound rather bad in this room, but once I move to a new place, the KEF will work much better.
As far as cost, I'd need to know what's the best strategy. Replacing the KEF with the Harbeth which I liked, or replace the receiver and add a sub and stay with the KEF.
@tk1111
The LS50 and Harbeth will sound fairly different. The LS50 has more scale, is harder hitting; while the Harbeths are wonderfully natural and musical sounding, especially with acoustic, jazz and classical, and don't highlight poorer recordings to the same degree. You need to hear both properly driven and with a good source to make up your mind.....and it may come down to the type of music you listen to.
You might also bear in mind Auralex Speaker Dudes, which would isolate the speakers from the desktop. It is possible the Harbeths may be less fussy about what they're sat on.
Just because an amp plays reasonably loud, doesn't mean it's controlling the speaker properly.....in fact, if the amp is struggling to drive a difficult load, turning it up will just make it all sound worse. I have the LS50s, and as BigH says, it's only when you turn the wick up, that they really come alive (and that in a room 15' x 21' x 11').
The problem I have giving advice, is that the speakers (especially the LS50s) will need a good amp to come alive....but sat on a desk (or whatever) they will be compromised to the point it may not be worth throwing a lot of money at the amp. Also, if they are not at ear height when seated, you may be better off with the LS50s, which are better for off-axis listening.
The LS50 and Harbeth will sound fairly different. The LS50 has more scale, is harder hitting; while the Harbeths are wonderfully natural and musical sounding, especially with acoustic, jazz and classical, and don't highlight poorer recordings to the same degree. You need to hear both properly driven and with a good source to make up your mind.....and it may come down to the type of music you listen to.
You might also bear in mind Auralex Speaker Dudes, which would isolate the speakers from the desktop. It is possible the Harbeths may be less fussy about what they're sat on.
Just because an amp plays reasonably loud, doesn't mean it's controlling the speaker properly.....in fact, if the amp is struggling to drive a difficult load, turning it up will just make it all sound worse. I have the LS50s, and as BigH says, it's only when you turn the wick up, that they really come alive (and that in a room 15' x 21' x 11').
The problem I have giving advice, is that the speakers (especially the LS50s) will need a good amp to come alive....but sat on a desk (or whatever) they will be compromised to the point it may not be worth throwing a lot of money at the amp. Also, if they are not at ear height when seated, you may be better off with the LS50s, which are better for off-axis listening.
Thanks everyone for the replies.
First, I made a mistake about the room size. It is actually 20x20, don't know why I wrote 40x40. The speakers are at ear level, and I did order the isoaccoustics which should help like the Auralex.
I'f like to be at a place where they sound clean, dynamic and engaging. I expect that at ear level, near-field and on stands they should be able to achieve it, regardless to room size. Once there, and assuming that I'd like them to better fill the room, a sub might be in order.
I guess that there's no way around changing the decco2 with something else and see if it makes a difference.
What's the cheapest amp that I can try that will make them "come alive"?
First, I made a mistake about the room size. It is actually 20x20, don't know why I wrote 40x40. The speakers are at ear level, and I did order the isoaccoustics which should help like the Auralex.
I'f like to be at a place where they sound clean, dynamic and engaging. I expect that at ear level, near-field and on stands they should be able to achieve it, regardless to room size. Once there, and assuming that I'd like them to better fill the room, a sub might be in order.
I guess that there's no way around changing the decco2 with something else and see if it makes a difference.
What's the cheapest amp that I can try that will make them "come alive"?
tk1111 said:
Easy peasy.......... 8)
Buy a good quality integrated amplifier with a minimum of 100 wpc, more if possible.
Use a good pair of heavy speaker stands, carefully set up and spiked to the floor.
Position the speakers and stands correctly for the room.
davedotco said:
Given that I want a definitive answer for myself and for the rest of humanity, I am willing to play ball!
I am going to order two integrated:
1. NAD D3020 - Many have communted that while it is 30W, it is able to push the LS50 rather well.
2. More traditional / powerful amp: NAD 375DAC (150W), Yamaha AS700
Would trying these remove the blame from the electronics (assuming no improvement)?
tk1111 said:
The better the amp, the more they come alive. Here are some suggestions:
Cheaper amps: Arcam A19, Creek 50A, Harman Kardon HK990, Musical Fidelity M3i, Exposure 2010 S2, Nad D3020 (OK for nearfield)
Mid-range amps: Sugden Mystro, Electrocompaniet PI-1, Densen B-110 Plus, Rega Elicit R
Since you are in the States, I'm not sure which are the best value brands to recommend.
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