Just added a new turntable to my system.

[MeanandGreen]

I've recently been curious about the many differing opions of digital vs vinyl which is scattered across the internet. My Dad had 3 cases of albums and 12"singles sitting around doing nothing so I thought I'd quire them and buy a turntable just for the hell of it.

I grew up with CD being the main format. I love CDs, I own lots of them which I've collected over the decades. I still play CDs regualrly and have a dedicated CDP as part of my set up.

Now then onto the vinyl. There seems to be a growing following for it, sales are increasing and many swear by the "warm" sound as being superior.

Not being familiar with how vinyl does actually sound for real I was intriged. I must say that now having actually listened to vinyl and comparing it to CD it's not what I'd call "warm". It sounds a touch thin and unrefined, the amount of background noise is unaceptable to me. High fidelity it is not.

My CDP sounds richer, crisper, smoother, clearer, more dynamic and more 3 dimentional by a large amount. I was going to buy some original 70's rock albums on vinyl to try out, but going off what I've heard so far I won't bother.

I don't get the romantic views on vinyl. I think it's quite amazing that it refuses to die, given the drawbacks.

The turtable is a Project Elemental USB, My system has never sounded so poor.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Lol..... did you turn the amp up.

I'm with you, I dabbled with vinyl towards the 'end' of its era in my youth.

But the fidelity of CD and it's robust nature - no constant needle cleaning, being affected by vibration, hum or hiss it was a done deal. Never looked back.

Rose tinted glasses I believe has something to do with it.

 

[ifor]

You probably expected too much from £159 TT.

 

[SteveR750]

I loved my LP12 / ITTOK / G1020 until I heard a well set up pc. Then my house flooded not long after I moved, soaking my beloved vinyl collection. The Linn went soon after, and 300 LPs are sat in boxes in my garage. Someone come and take them off my hands!

 

[bigfish786]

You probably expected too much from £159 TT.

I got a 1970s direct drive turntable, it changed my perception of vinyl completely.

admittedly, my amp must have a decent phono stage, and my speakers are as good as anything I've heard.

But the qualities in vinyl are there to be discovered. You just need the right kit, not just one "element".

 

[MeanandGreen]

You probably expected too much from £159 TT.

It's a £200+ turntable, but never the less the price of the turntable won't change the pops clicks and rumble.

I also do not believe that all vinyl lovers who swear by it have exotic decks. The limitations I hear are with the format.

 

[MeanandGreen]

You probably expected too much from £159 TT.

IBut the qualities in vinyl are there to be discovered. You just need the right kit, not just one "element".

Ha, ha! Here we go...

 

[drummerman]

You probably expected too much from £159 TT.

IBut the qualities in vinyl are there to be discovered. You just need the right kit, not just one "element".

Ha, ha! Here we go...

Mmmh, not quite sure where we're going ...

Fair enough, you did'nt enjoy vinyl but just as with amplifiers and speakers, paying a little more (or just choosing wisely) can and will make a big difference, more so with record decks, cartridges and phono stages.

Then there is the question of setting it up correctly, from cartridge adjustment, loading and the basics of the deck etc etc.

Finally there is the taking care of the vinyl itself and making sure it is in the best possible condition it can be.

Chosing vinyl as a media is more time consuming (and potentially expensive) than any other but the rewards can be astonishing.

I personally think you should have gone to a good dealership to listen to a properly set-up vinyl system first rather than spending 200 quid 'blind' on a deck.

 

[CnoEvil]

You have just discovered why a TT needs to take a high percentage of the overall price of the system....back in the day, that was up to 50%.

It is also all about the arm / cartridge / set up / isolation / quality of phono stage / vinyl care. It is much harder to get right than a CDP. It's all about "the faff", which you either love or hate.

 

[strms]

I went from vinyl and tape to playing a mix of both cd and vinyl in the mid 80's..........now its ripped cds via a NAS and vinyl. There is just something engaging with the sound of vinyl that digital just cant get close to. The recent resurgence in vinyl sales has got me going back into HMV, I stopped spending when they stopped selling vinyl. A good pressing on 180g vinyl in my opinion is the best way to listen to music. Ok you have to get up now and then to change/turn it over and streaming via sonos from the NAS or Tidal is a doddle from the sofa...................but there is something missing in digital.

 

[davedotco]

I went from vinyl and tape to playing a mix of both cd and vinyl in the mid 80's..........now its ripped cds via a NAS and vinyl. There is just something engaging with the sound of vinyl that digital just cant get close to. The recent resurgence in vinyl sales has got me going back into HMV, I stopped spending when they stopped selling vinyl. A good pressing on 180g vinyl in my opinion is the best way to listen to music. Ok you have to get up now and then to change/turn it over and streaming via sonos from the NAS or Tidal is a doddle from the sofa...................but there is something missing in digital.

There most certainly is. Digital is not "hip".

And all this love for DJ decks, sometimes I think Thompsonuxb is the only sane person on here.

 

[ifor]

You probably expected too much from £159 TT.

It's a £200+ turntable, but never the less the price of the turntable won't change the pops clicks and rumble.

I also do not believe that all vinyl lovers who swear by it have exotic decks. The limitations I hear are with the format.

If you paid £200 you didn't shop well.

 

[MeanandGreen]

You probably expected too much from £159 TT.

It's a £200+ turntable, but never the less the price of the turntable won't change the pops clicks and rumble.

I also do not believe that all vinyl lovers who swear by it have exotic decks. The limitations I hear are with the format.

If you paid £200 you didn't shop well.

Well considering it can't be picked up for less than £219 you're right. I didn't shop well, I shopped impeccably

 

[ifor]

If that's the case, well done! Maybe the £159 one I googled isn't what you got. Nevertheless, as others have said, vinyl can be sublime, but it does cost a bit!

 

[MeanandGreen]

Mmmh, not quite sure where we're going ...

We're going down the route of audiophile snobbery... Looking down our noses at the Project.

I'd like to clarify it is correctly set up. Stable, level and isolated.

Granted the vinyl in the best condition sounds better than poorer condition and sounds reasonably good but, not as good as the CD. Even the cleanest and newest condition records have noise. This is noticeable in quiet passages of music and is a distraction.

With regards to listing to a "properly set up deck" at a dealer. There are no Hi Fi dealers here anymore. I wanted an entry level deck from a reputable Hi Fi brand which correct me if I'm wrong is what Project is good at?

I also wanted it to be USB equipped for computer ripping which narrows down the choice. I don't think the things I don't like are the deck, more so the format itself.

 

[MeanandGreen]

If that's the case, well done! Maybe the £159 one I googled isn't what you got. Nevertheless, as others have said, vinyl can be sublime, but it does cost a bit!

You must of looked at the basic elemental. I have the 'USB' version.

I just don't think anyone dipping their toe into something should be expected to delve straight into high end for a taste of what it's like.

 

[bigfish786]

Was my point entirely. I spent £100 and got a really good taste of what vinyl can do.

If it's not for you, fine. Sell the pro-ject, take your listening to other formats as far as you want to go.

Personally, I love the results I get from vinyl and so does the g/f.

 

[drummerman]

If that's the case, well done! Maybe the £159 one I googled isn't what you got. Nevertheless, as others have said, vinyl can be sublime, but it does cost a bit!

You must of looked at the basic elemental. I have the 'USB' version.

I just don't think anyone dipping their toe into something should be expected to delve straight into high end for a taste of what it's like.

I agree but I think you are expecting unreasonable things from your product. No 'audiophile snobbery' as you so eloquently put it, rather a case of being realistic.

Whereas only a few years back many reviewers used to like to say that even a cheap TT can rival a very good cd player, these days very good digital playback is available cheaper and the situation may have changed somewhat. - From a personal point of view this is probably generalizing things to much and is certainly not always the case but you probably get the idea.

Cheap turntables and cartridges often accentuate noise, lack at the frequency extremes and have poor channel separation (not a strong point of vinyl anyhow, perhaps one of the reasons why it can sound more natural to some ... ).

Shame really, I assume without having heard a good set-up you are condemning the format on the basis of your £200 USB turntable (it may sound really good, I can't say as I haven't heard your system but I'd hazard a guess it wouldn't compare with even a slightly more expensive table and cartridge/phone stage or even a carefully chosen vintage deck of equal price plus decent cartridge).

So, you may regard this as 'audiophile snobbery' but I personally get satisfaction it if I can get someone to enjoy vinyl as I have done only a few years back. Nothing more, nothing less.

Shame it didn't happen for you but at least it makes you appreciate the rest of your system, in itself a good thing.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

I went from vinyl and tape to playing a mix of both cd and vinyl in the mid 80's..........now its ripped cds via a NAS and vinyl. There is just something engaging with the sound of vinyl that digital just cant get close to. The recent resurgence in vinyl sales has got me going back into HMV, I stopped spending when they stopped selling vinyl. A good pressing on 180g vinyl in my opinion is the best way to listen to music. Ok you have to get up now and then to change/turn it over and streaming via sonos from the NAS or Tidal is a doddle from the sofa...................but there is something missing in digital.

There most certainly is. Digital is not "hip".

And all this love for DJ decks, sometimes I think Thompsonuxb is the only sane person on here.

I respect your views but I love my "DJ" deck and that's all that matters. Personal preference is... well... personal. Think my next move may well be PMC active speakers *crazy*.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

I went from vinyl and tape to playing a mix of both cd and vinyl in the mid 80's..........now its ripped cds via a NAS and vinyl.  There is just something engaging with the sound of vinyl that digital just cant get close to.  The recent resurgence in vinyl sales has got me going back into HMV, I stopped spending when they stopped selling vinyl. A good pressing on 180g vinyl in my opinion is the best way to listen to music.  Ok you have to get up now and then to change/turn it over and streaming via sonos from the NAS or Tidal is a doddle from the sofa...................but there is something missing in digital.

There most certainly is. Digital is not "hip".

And all this love for DJ decks, sometimes I think Thompsonuxb is the only sane person on here.

Dave why do you bait me so.... But since I'm back in here allow me to ramble for a moment.

My first TT was the Marantz tt-151 a hollow plastic belt drive budget deck.

Bought out of my first wage - Sat on top a cushion from an old settee it served me well - plugged into my Awia ca100l.

Inherited a Technics SL 17xx - can't remember it's full name, it was direct drive had a little light on it you pressed and it came up so you could check the speed in the dark....rotating dots.

It was the choice of DJ's back in the day. Such a cool looking deck - But styluses became really rare and expensive.

Thank goodness CD's came when they did.

I actually can appreciate the love of vinyl......

 

[davedotco]

I went from vinyl and tape to playing a mix of both cd and vinyl in the mid 80's..........now its ripped cds via a NAS and vinyl. There is just something engaging with the sound of vinyl that digital just cant get close to. The recent resurgence in vinyl sales has got me going back into HMV, I stopped spending when they stopped selling vinyl. A good pressing on 180g vinyl in my opinion is the best way to listen to music. Ok you have to get up now and then to change/turn it over and streaming via sonos from the NAS or Tidal is a doddle from the sofa...................but there is something missing in digital.

There most certainly is. Digital is not "hip".

And all this love for DJ decks, sometimes I think Thompsonuxb is the only sane person on here.

I respect your views but I love my "DJ" deck and that's all that matters. Personal preference is... well... personal. Think my next move may well be PMC active speakers *crazy*.

Morning Dougk.

Indeed you are quite right, so long as you do not pretend that the deck is anything approaching hi-fi, though given your choice of speakers it is, for me, an unusual (crazy as you put it) viewpoint.

I have spoken about this many times but, to me, it boils down to one critical point. Despite the complaints about the sound quality of commercial music releases, there remains, thousands, perhaps millions of good recordings of great music out there.

So hearing those, as intended, is a big part of the enjoyment of recorded music for me, absoluely crucial in fact. As a user of PMC speakers, I would assume that you must at least have some sympathy for that view.

The really crazy thing in all this is that I absolutely love good vinyl playback and have said so many times. Even in the very recent thread on hi-end systems, when challenged to detail several of the best systems I had ever heard, two of the three I listed had vinyl front ends.

The problem is that good vinyl playback is expensive, I know a lot of people seem to believe otherwise, but as you say this "preference" seems simply absurd to me. Poor quality vinyl playback is, to me, every bit as bad as Mean and Green describes, worse in fact.

The lack of good dealers is a huge issue here, good decks need care and attention, good setup and all the rest, this is now, in my experience, so rare that few people have any idea what a good vinyl system can sound like.

 

[CnoEvil]

My opinion has nothing to do with hifi snobbery but was formed through owning a variety of TTs, back when they were the main source of a system. The same could be said of the likes of DDC and Drummerman, which is why they have a similar view.

 

[SteveR750]

FWIW my laptop is a much better source than my vinyl ever was, It's such a crude transducer that you need to spend a relatively high amount to get a reasonable sound. Treat it as a hobby in its own right and vinyl ownership is hugely satisfying, but the dual cs505 really wasn't that great, the EB101 was just about OK.

 

[splasher]

One consideration I don't think has been made is the condition of the records. If your dad's records had a hard life with little cleaning (as most people's did back in the day) then you won't get a very good sound from them regardless of the turntable.

Perhaps I've misread the post, but if you haven't tried it with a good clean record it could be worth buying something new, giving it a good clean and then try it. It's more money (£15 + £10 ish), but would let you make up your mind.

I listen to ripped flacs and vinyl but I grew up with vinyl so as well as being analogue, it's nostalgic so I'm a bit biased.

 

[TrevC]

You probably expected too much from £159 TT.

Or the vinyl medium, which is comfortably outclassed by CD.