Just added a new turntable to my system.

[TrevC]

Someone mentioned actually listening to the music instead of listening out for the flaws makes a big difference. I agree it does, but as an example Dire Straits 'Down To The Waterline' is quite a hissy recording to begin with (including on CD). Play it on vinyl and the the quiet intro is not only full of the recordings actual hiss, but also the slight rumble of the format and the occasional crackle. It gets in the way of the guitar. Then when the track actually bursts into life it seems dynamically lacking in impact compared with the CD version.

The hiss will be from the analogue master tape (hence on the vinyl and CD), but the rumble is being produced by the turntable. This issue is confined to budget (or badly designed) turntables. The Project you have is a budget turntable. Nothing wrong with that in itself, but manufacturers can only do so much for any given budget. Of course, it is down to the individual as to how much money they would be willing to invest in an item based on how much they're going to use it, but deciding on whether a music format is worth investing in shouldn't really be decided based on an entry level model, particularly seeing as a turntable's quality is based upon how well it is engineered. Below your deck, there is only the plastic clad decks that have remained exactly the same for the past 30 years..

I however prefer any digital format over vinyl sound quality as my preference.

That is evident in what you are posting up here.

He prefers it because digital obviously is better, but that's not to say that a record deck can't be improved. A different cartridge perhaps? I haven't played with any for years, and use a Shure 97HE in my old Philips deck, which sounds amazing on most albums. I did try a much raved about Grado years ago and it sounded awful, dull and lifeless and an awful tracker.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

This is a hi-fi forum, pointing out the superiorty of better equipment over lesser equipment is part of the reason it exists.

For the reasons pointed out by Mean and Green, few people get to hear good vinyl playback, it is simply too complex and expensive to survive in the current marketplace.

Despite the protestations of some enthusiasts, budget turntables are pretty poor and give absolutely no idea of what the format is capable of. Vinyl playback has been dumbed down to a level that it is now a fashion statement rather than a serious hi-fi source and as a genuine vinyl enthusiast, I find that quite painful to say.

True, and the same could be said for all sources - mp3's and ear-buds through iThings. No one is ever going to hear true quality until they change their listening style. Music playback is becoming yet another life-style product. I recently tried to talk a guy out of purchasing a Bose Wave music system in favour of budget hi-fi system; he bought the Bose because it was "so good". Idiot!

 

[Deleted member 108165]

and have purchased new 180gr vinyl, old stuff from charity shops and everything inbetween and yet rare is it that I'm subjected to endless pops, clicks or crackle, there seems to be a lot of people obviously doing a lot wrong. Sounds to me like the op's vinyl was the worse for wear.

I love my digital, high def recordings as much as the next man but this constant snobbery against the misguided fools that appreciate something different ( myself included)puts me off from contributing to this site. Some contributers on here clearly haven't progressed from their school bullying antics!

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with a good old Technics direct drive turntable. Wish i had one!

I too agree that the condition of the vinyl is probably the OP's suspect here. However, I set-up my old Debut Carbon at my sisters at the weekend and we spun an original Nat King Cole lp on it... it sounded incredible!

As for the forum I get where you're coming from and fully understand. It could be viewed as snobbery or bullying but I look at it as just peoples differing views so I tend not to read too much into it or take offence. I know what I like and that's all that matters.

I'm sure another Technics will be along very soon *smile*

 

[iMark]

Despite the protestations of some enthusiasts, budget turntables are pretty poor and give absolutely no idea of what the format is capable of. Vinyl playback has been dumbed down to a level that it is now a fashion statement rather than a serious hi-fi source and as a genuine vinyl enthusiast, I find that quite painful to say.

On Saturday we were browsing in a huge house accessories department store (http://www.loods5.nl). I was very surprised to find a section there with rather expensive second hand LPs, a load of those horrific Crossley Cruizers, and people just playing with the gear without any supervision. Obviously we didn't buy anything because there is no way to find out what the quality is. I will probably buy a second hand LP of unknown provenence for a euro, but I won't pay 10 euros for them.

 

[davedotco]

and have purchased new 180gr vinyl, old stuff from charity shops and everything inbetween and yet rare is it that I'm subjected to endless pops, clicks or crackle, there seems to be a lot of people obviously doing a lot wrong. Sounds to me like the op's vinyl was the worse for wear.

I love my digital, high def recordings as much as the next man but this constant snobbery against the misguided fools that appreciate something different ( myself included)puts me off from contributing to this site. Some contributers on here clearly haven't progressed from their school bullying antics!

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with a good old Technics direct drive turntable. Wish i had one!

I too agree that the condition of the vinyl is probably the OP's suspect here. However, I set-up my old Debut Carbon at my sisters at the weekend and we spun an original Nat King Cole lp on it... it sounded incredible!

As for the forum I get where you're coming from and fully understand. It could be viewed as snobbery or bullying but I look at it as just peoples differing views so I tend not to read too much into it or take offence. I know what I like and that's all that matters.

I'm sure another Technics will be along very soon *smile*

Recording quality is everything though great recordings often make for poor demonstrations, though there are things that you can do about this. On a classic recording such as the one you mention, try and ignore the (wonderful) vocals and listen to the band. Resolving what the individual musicians are doing is more difficult, particularly in a big band, so see what you can hear.

Good players are very much better at this and, once this is heard and understood, the improvement is difficult to ignore. Listening to the music tells you everything you need to know about a player and, given the equipment, it is very easy to do the demonstrations.

 

[lindsayt]

This is a hi-fi forum, pointing out the superiorty of better equipment over lesser equipment is part of the reason it exists.

For the reasons pointed out by Mean and Green, few people get to hear good vinyl playback, it is simply too complex and expensive to survive in the current marketplace.

Despite the protestations of some enthusiasts, budget turntables are pretty poor and give absolutely no idea of what the format is capable of. Vinyl playback has been dumbed down to a level that it is now a fashion statement rather than a serious hi-fi source and as a genuine vinyl enthusiast, I find that quite painful to say.

Get yourself to Gromits room at the Scalford Show next month, where he will be playing a c£850 fuss free turntable, arm, cartridge combination that is towards the High End when it comes to sound quality.

 

[drummerman]

I get a warm feeling (nothing to do with sweating though I had a few of those too with near cantilever disasters) every time I put a record on. To ;me it kind of embodies everything hifi is. It's more than just listening to music (to me) ... its an experience.

In these days of fast food and everything instantly on your fingertips playing records is the equivelant of making the effort of driving or walking to a good restaurant, the anticipation of waiting for good food, taking in the atmosphere and then enjoying it in an unrushed sort of way, beginning to end, without skipping the starter or desert. The bill is inevitably higher than in a fast food restaurant or a microwave dinner at home.

I enjoy streaming, playing my library from Flac's, using spotify premium, putting in a cd and even listening to my lovely FM tuner but a hifi system without a turntable is, to me at least, not complete. - That goes for Hifi show demonstrations, dealer systems and beautiful systems in HifiChoice.

You can't measure the above and to many it wont make any sense at all. It has to be said there is also the odd bad meal here and there.

Vinyl forever

 

[davedotco]

This is a hi-fi forum, pointing out the superiorty of better equipment over lesser equipment is part of the reason it exists.

For the reasons pointed out by Mean and Green, few people get to hear good vinyl playback, it is simply too complex and expensive to survive in the current marketplace.

Despite the protestations of some enthusiasts, budget turntables are pretty poor and give absolutely no idea of what the format is capable of. Vinyl playback has been dumbed down to a level that it is now a fashion statement rather than a serious hi-fi source and as a genuine vinyl enthusiast, I find that quite painful to say.

Get yourself to Gromits room at the Scalford Show next month, where he will be playing a c£850 fuss free turntable, arm, cartridge combination that is towards the High End when it comes to sound quality.

Sounds interesting, good price too.

Do you have any more details?

 

[Frank Harvey]

I get a warm feeling (nothing to do with sweating though I had a few of those too with near cantilever disasters) every time I put a record on. To ;me it kind of embodies everything hifi is. It's more than just listening to music (to me) ... its an experience.

In these days of fast food and everything instantly on your fingertips playing records is the equivelant of making the effort of driving or walking to a good restaurant, the anticipation of waiting for good food, taking in the atmosphere and then enjoying it in an unrushed sort of way, beginning to end, without skipping the starter or desert. The bill is inevitably higher than in a fast food restaurant or a microwave dinner at home.

I enjoy streaming, playing my library from Flac's, using spotify premium, putting in a cd and even listening to my lovely FM tuner but a hifi system without a turntable is, to me at least, not complete. - That goes for Hifi show demonstrations, dealer systems and beautiful systems in HifiChoice.

You can't measure the above and to many it wont make any sense at all. It has to be said there is also the odd bad meal here and there.

Vinyl forever

Nice post. I would say you are probably a typical example of someone who enjoys listening to vinyl, and your summary probably says most of what they would want to convey. There's a lot of people out there who obviously feel the same, and are voting with their wallets and time to support a format they love and enjoy, in various ways. Quite a few no longer listen to CD, although do stream music in one way or another, so aren't "anti digital" - they just prefer to listen to, and collect, vinyl.

 

[TrevC]

This thread has had me playing vinyl albums all day instead of doing my paperwork. :O)

 

[MeanandGreen]

Though I think I need to clarify a few things...

I am in no way trying to imply that people who really enjoy vinyl are wrong for doing so. I fully underdstand that a better deck will give a better sound. Perhaps my initial post was somewhat harsh on the overall sound quality. To me it is not as good as my CD Player. It isn't absoloutly terrible, the better quality records I have would most likely really impress a lot of people if they heard it, but I'm used to good quality digital audio sources. The (occasional) pop and crackle to me isn't what I'd assosaiate with high fidelity playback. The records I have are not riddled with pops and clicks, but some pops are there occasionaly. I'm just not used to hearing such things. To me it's a major flaw.

I did mention that I have a subwoofer. My system does reproduce frequncies down to 20hz with ease, this will be making any hum or rumble more obvious then if I just had speakers alone. Again it doesn't drown out the music and isn't audiable until there are quiet passeges or gaps between tracks. It's just something I'm aware of during silence. Though at the same time it's an issue not applicable to other formats.

I did do some reserch before buying this TT. I didn't just go and spend £60 in Argos. I am a lover of music and I've had many combinatioans of Hi Fi seperates, speakers and headphones since I was 13, I'm now 35. My main source has largely been the compact disc during this time.

My CD Player is to me a beautiful machine, it's very well built. I relish playing albums on it. It's a Sony 'Fixed Pickup Mechanism' player from the 90's. I've owned it for 16 years, I know it inside out and I really enjoy the 'occasion' of placing that magnetic puck ontop of a CD and pressing play. Much like some of you enjoy needle dropping no doubt...

The Project is as good as I'm going to get for the money I paid, I really do beleive that!

£200 isn't high end no... But it isn't quite the cheap and nasty equivilants available at Argos & Currys etc... It is a respected audipohile brand, and it's what I'm willing to pay for an introduction into vinyl.

I am not so against it that I'm going to get rid of it. I'm currently bulding a second system in my home office and I'm going to use it in there where I can sit right beside it and become more tactile/intimaite with the format. I have been given 3 cases of 60's, 70's & 80's music which I happen to really want to own and try out. It's the format this stuff was made for so I want to experince it.

Once it's set up in my second room with no sub I'm sure the rumble issue will be reduced signifiacntly. I'll be cleaning all of the vinyls properly and I'm sure I'll get a pleasing enjoyable sound. However I do not think it can rival the acuracy of digital media.

That's me, that's my preference, I think digital is technically superior in everyway.

Although some people really enjoy the vinyl experience, there can't be any doubt about it's flaws. That doesn't mean it can't be appreicted in it's own way and I respect that. I just won't ever join the 'vinyl rules - digital sucks' camp.

 

[SteveR750]

I get a warm feeling (nothing to do with sweating though I had a few of those too with near cantilever disasters) every time I put a record on. To ;me it kind of embodies everything hifi is. It's more than just listening to music (to me) ... its an experience.

In these days of fast food and everything instantly on your fingertips playing records is the equivelant of making the effort of driving or walking to a good restaurant, the anticipation of waiting for good food, taking in the atmosphere and then enjoying it in an unrushed sort of way, beginning to end, without skipping the starter or desert. The bill is inevitably higher than in a fast food restaurant or a microwave dinner at home.

I enjoy streaming, playing my library from Flac's, using spotify premium, putting in a cd and even listening to my lovely FM tuner but a hifi system without a turntable is, to me at least, not complete. - That goes for Hifi show demonstrations, dealer systems and beautiful systems in HifiChoice.

You can't measure the above and to many it wont make any sense at all. It has to be said there is also the odd bad meal here and there.

Vinyl forever

I absolutely miss this! Setting up a TT, playing rcords and just constantly tweaking, experimenting with it. Operating a TT requires some thought, some investigation and experimentation, you can't just wade in and stick coins willy nilly everywhere! Fiddling about with the DSP settings in a media player is mind numbingly uninteresting in comparison. I really miss my Linn, and have to agree with dave that there is a world of difference bretween a budget deck and something more spohisticated. Ultimately it probably didn't sound more accurate, but accuracy is not necessarily the utopia it's made out to be.

 

[davedotco]

I get a warm feeling (nothing to do with sweating though I had a few of those too with near cantilever disasters) every time I put a record on. To ;me it kind of embodies everything hifi is. It's more than just listening to music (to me) ... its an experience.

In these days of fast food and everything instantly on your fingertips playing records is the equivelant of making the effort of driving or walking to a good restaurant, the anticipation of waiting for good food, taking in the atmosphere and then enjoying it in an unrushed sort of way, beginning to end, without skipping the starter or desert. The bill is inevitably higher than in a fast food restaurant or a microwave dinner at home.

I enjoy streaming, playing my library from Flac's, using spotify premium, putting in a cd and even listening to my lovely FM tuner but a hifi system without a turntable is, to me at least, not complete. - That goes for Hifi show demonstrations, dealer systems and beautiful systems in HifiChoice.

You can't measure the above and to many it wont make any sense at all. It has to be said there is also the odd bad meal here and there.

Vinyl forever

I absolutely miss this! Setting up a TT, playing rcords and just constantly tweaking, experimenting with it. Operating a TT requires some thought, some investigation and experimentation, you can't just wade in and stick coins willy nilly everywhere! Fiddling about with the DSP settings in a media player is mind numbingly uninteresting in comparison. I really miss my Linn, and have to agree with dave that there is a world of difference bretween a budget deck and something more spohisticated. Ultimately it probably didn't sound more accurate, but accuracy is not necessarily the utopia it's made out to be.

I'm with you on this steveR750, most people have never heard the difference

Back in the early 80s we used to have a party trick.

We would dem a simple, red button LP12 with the silver arm (LVV) and cartridge (modified AT93) against any player bought in by the public, anything, from Thorens to Micro seiki to Technics to Trio, whatever.

Never any doubt as to which player was superior, every time. And this was mostly to people who had never even heard of Linn Products.

 

[drummerman]

Though I think I need to clarify a few things...

I am in no way trying to imply that people who really enjoy vinyl are wrong for doing so. I fully underdstand that a better deck will give a better sound. Perhaps my initial post was somewhat harsh on the overall sound quality. To me it is not as good as my CD Player. It isn't absoloutly terrible, the better quality records I have would most likely really impress a lot of people if they heard it, but I'm used to good quality digital audio sources. The (occasional) pop and crackle to me isn't what I'd assosaiate with high fidelity playback. The records I have are not riddled with pops and clicks, but some pops are there occasionaly. I'm just not used to hearing such things. To me it's a major flaw.

I did mention that I have a subwoofer. My system does reproduce frequncies down to 20hz with ease, this will be making any hum or rumble more obvious then if I just had speakers alone. Again it doesn't drown out the music and isn't audiable until there are quiet passeges or gaps between tracks. It's just something I'm aware of during silence. Though at the same time it's an issue not applicable to other formats.

I did do some reserch before buying this TT. I didn't just go and spend £60 in Argos. I am a lover of music and I've had many combinatioans of Hi Fi seperates, speakers and headphones since I was 13, I'm now 35. My main source has largely been the compact disc during this time.

My CD Player is to me a beautiful machine, it's very well built. I relish playing albums on it. It's a Sony 'Fixed Pickup Mechanism' player from the 90's. I've owned it for 16 years, I know it inside out and I really enjoy the 'occasion' of placing that magnetic puck ontop of a CD and pressing play. Much like some of you enjoy needle dropping no doubt...

The Project is as good as I'm going to get for the money I paid, I really do beleive that!

£200 isn't high end no... But it isn't quite the cheap and nasty equivilants available at Argos & Currys etc... It is a respected audipohile brand, and it's what I'm willing to pay for an introduction into vinyl.

I am not so against it that I'm going to get rid of it. I'm currently bulding a second system in my home office and I'm going to use it in there where I can sit right beside it and become more tactile/intimaite with the format. I have been given 3 cases of 60's, 70's & 80's music which I happen to really want to own and try out. It's the format this stuff was made for so I want to experince it.

Once it's set up in my second room with no sub I'm sure the rumble issue will be reduced signifiacntly. I'll be cleaning all of the vinyls properly and I'm sure I'll get a pleasing enjoyable sound. However I do not think it can rival the acuracy of digital media.

That's me, that's my preference, I think digital is technically superior in everyway.

Although some people really enjoy the vinyl experience, there can't be any doubt about it's flaws. That doesn't mean it can't be appreicted in it's own way and I respect that. I just won't ever join the 'vinyl rules - digital sucks' camp.

A thoughtful post.

There are plenty that agree with you

 

[lindsayt]

This is a hi-fi forum, pointing out the superiorty of better equipment over lesser equipment is part of the reason it exists.

For the reasons pointed out by Mean and Green, few people get to hear good vinyl playback, it is simply too complex and expensive to survive in the current marketplace.

Despite the protestations of some enthusiasts, budget turntables are pretty poor and give absolutely no idea of what the format is capable of. Vinyl playback has been dumbed down to a level that it is now a fashion statement rather than a serious hi-fi source and as a genuine vinyl enthusiast, I find that quite painful to say.

Get yourself to Gromits room at the Scalford Show next month, where he will be playing a c£850 fuss free turntable, arm, cartridge combination that is towards the High End when it comes to sound quality.

Sounds interesting, good price too.

Do you have any more details?

Google "Scalford show" for more details, and click on the first 2 links.

NB the floor plans on the main show website currently show last years exhibitors.

It looks like there will also be a Lenco at this years show, which might have cost less than £850 and might sound at least as good as Gromits Sony - Benz combination. The Lenco is more of a DIY emthusiasts TT than the Sony.

 

[MeanandGreen]

Tonight I've heard what vinyl can do. An original 1977 pressing of 'Rumors' by Fleetwood Mac. My turntable is certainly not poor. This album sounds very good indeed!

It's funny because the record looks rough, yet sounds sublime! An eBay bargain.

 

[drummerman]

Glad it wasn't a complete waste of money.

 

[SteveR750]

Tonight I've heard what vinyl can do. An original 1977 pressing of 'Rumors' by Fleetwood Mac. My turntable is certainly not poor. This album sounds very good indeed!

It's funny because the record looks rough, yet sounds sublime! An eBay bargain.

I envy you.

 

[DIB]

It's funny because the record looks rough, yet sounds sublime! An eBay bargain.

You know I can agree with this. The other night I was listening to my original copy of Abbey Road owned from new. It is in truly awful condition, a throwback to my youth when I didn't give a **** about the way I handled my records. However, it's been cleaned up now and still sounds sublime. Yes a few pops and crackles, but considering the condition remarkably few, and it doesn't jump at any point. I've bought modern, new vinyl that has sounded worse.

.

 

[MeanandGreen]

I was surprised by how much I really enjoyed that ropey old record last night. I might even prefer it over the CD version *shok* even though the CD is actually better.

I'm very much liking the big artwork with vinyl. Holding a CD case and flicking through the booklet doesn't really compare. It's becoming very apparent that the thicker the vinyl the better it sounds. I've been buying a few records on eBay and so far really enjoying opening them up on arrival.

So yeah it's not a waste, it's just very different.

Wondering what an acrylic platter would do to the sound if anything? I like the looks of my turntable with the acrylic platter fitted on Projects website, but don't know if it's a waste of money?

 

[SteveR750]

I was surprised by how much I really enjoyed that ropey old record last night. I might even prefer it over the CD version *shok* even though the CD is actually better.

I'm very much liking the big artwork with vinyl. Holding a CD case and flicking through the booklet doesn't really compare. It's becoming very apparent that the thicker the vinyl the better it sounds. I've been buying a few records on eBay and so far really enjoying opening them up on arrival.

So yeah it's not a waste, it's just very different.

Wondering what an acrylic platter would do to the sound if anything? I like the looks of my turntable with the acrylic platter fitted on Projects website, but don't know if it's a waste of money?

Time to start tweaking!

 

[MeanandGreen]

Time to start tweaking!

Ha, ha! Quite possibly!

Such luxuries will have to wait a little while, I need a pair of speakers for my second system first. Plus I have other expensive hobbies. It's never ending... *wacko*

 

[IJ]

Been away from this forum for a long time. Just read this thread, so a bit late here.

Just to say, i have a pretty good CD set-up, tooks years to get where i wanted to be. The last months i have spent more and more time listening to my old(and some new)LP's. Bought a Rega RP3 with Elys 2 as a middle of the road turntable, Really blown away with just how good these LP's sound. Very little surface noise, the very odd pop here and there, but they are 40 year old records. Never listened to the intoduction level Project turntables, so can't say if there is a big difference to the RP3, but LP's really do sound enjoyable.

Can't put my finger on it and say why i prefer the LP's, but now i dont want to listen to CD's so much and now thinking what could be achieved with something like a RP8.

If you doubt the quality of sound from an LP, assuming your records are not damaged, might be worth taking a few to a HiFi shop and take a listen to them on an alternative system

 

[MeanandGreen]

Little update, I've been enjoying buying and playing records.

My plan was to use the turntable in my second system which is still currently being pieced togehter. The second system is being built on a budget, I've just bought some JBL Control 1 desktop monitors today for £70, not the best speakers but they are for a small office room. I'll use my Beyerdynamic DT 770 headphones for serious listening. These will all be connected to my old NAD C350 amp which I recently fixed after it had stopped working 2 years ago. Sources for this system are going to be my iMac for iTunes playpack connected via a Pioneer CD-R as a DAC/CD source. (Waiting for the Pioneer arriving it's a spares/repairs project which I aim to fix) and lastly my Project turntable.

The thing is now I'm enjoying having a turntable in my main system. I like having the option of playing vinyl particularly because I've now got stuff only available on vinyl. So I think I'm going to dig the old Lenco turntable out from my parents loft and refurbish that too for use in my second set up.

Buying the Project really has led to some 'projects'.