Just added a new turntable to my system.

[ifor]

You probably expected too much from £159 TT.

Or the vinyl medium, which is comfortably outclassed by CD.

At budget level I agree with you. Wow, there's a first! I'm not saying that I always disagree with you, just that I seldom agree.

 

[Frank Harvey]

It's a £200+ turntable, but never the less the price of the turntable won't change the pops clicks and rumble.

Yes, it will.

 

[John Duncan]

300 LPs are sat in boxes in my garage.  Someone come and take them off my hands! 

OK.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Granted the vinyl in the best condition sounds better than poorer condition and sounds reasonably good but, not as good as the CD. Even the cleanest and newest condition records have noise. This is noticeable in quiet passages of music and is a distraction.

As quite as it generally is (and sometimes non existent), it is only a distraction if that is what you're listening to. It is like projecting a film onto a wall which has various imperfections. It is surprising what you can ignore once you're "into" the film, and at various points, suddenly realise that you forgot the lines from the wallpaper, or the odd dirty smudge here and there actually exists. It is those that listen to the music (the whole point) that don't complain about background noise. Yes, it's nice to have a totally silent background, and I'll agree there are some albums that I would prefer to listen to via digital due to lingering silences, but the noise aspect is one that is played up to work against vinyl. I was quite stunned one day when my colleague popped on a Foo Fighters album one day, and there was no background noise whatsoever - it was silent. And that's not uncommon with modern releases. I have Herbie Hancock's album Future Shock, which I bought in the 80's, that is still silent now, regardless of however many times I have played it. Noise is generally produced by badly set up decks, badly pressed vinyl, bad warps, and dying stylii.

Anyone who is "vinyl curious" or wants to hear a variety of music on variously priced turntables (from a few hundred quid up to five figures) can pop along to our store on Record Store Day where we'll have six systems playing altogether.

 

[TrevC]

You probably expected too much from £159 TT.

Or the vinyl medium, which is comfortably outclassed by CD.

At budget level I agree with you. Wow, there's a first! I'm not saying that I always disagree with you, just that I seldom agree.

Budget vinyl is the same quality as full priced vinyl.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

I went from vinyl and tape to playing a mix of both cd and vinyl in the mid 80's..........now its ripped cds via a NAS and vinyl. There is just something engaging with the sound of vinyl that digital just cant get close to. The recent resurgence in vinyl sales has got me going back into HMV, I stopped spending when they stopped selling vinyl. A good pressing on 180g vinyl in my opinion is the best way to listen to music. Ok you have to get up now and then to change/turn it over and streaming via sonos from the NAS or Tidal is a doddle from the sofa...................but there is something missing in digital.

There most certainly is. Digital is not "hip".

And all this love for DJ decks, sometimes I think Thompsonuxb is the only sane person on here.

I respect your views but I love my "DJ" deck and that's all that matters. Personal preference is... well... personal. Think my next move may well be PMC active speakers *crazy*.

Morning Dougk.

Indeed you are quite right, so long as you do not pretend that the deck is anything approaching hi-fi, though given your choice of speakers it is, for me, an unusual (crazy as you put it) viewpoint.

I have spoken about this many times but, to me, it boils down to one critical point. Despite the complaints about the sound quality of commercial music releases, there remains, thousands, perhaps millions of good recordings of great music out there.

So hearing those, as intended, is a big part of the enjoyment of recorded music for me, absoluely crucial in fact. As a user of PMC speakers, I would assume that you must at least have some sympathy for that view.

The really crazy thing in all this is that I absolutely love good vinyl playback and have said so many times. Even in the very recent thread on hi-end systems, when challenged to detail several of the best systems I had ever heard, two of the three I listed had vinyl front ends.

The problem is that good vinyl playback is expensive, I know a lot of people seem to believe otherwise, but as you say this "preference" seems simply absurd to me. Poor quality vinyl playback is, to me, every bit as bad as Mean and Green describes, worse in fact.

The lack of good dealers is a huge issue here, good decks need care and attention, good setup and all the rest, this is now, in my experience, so rare that few people have any idea what a good vinyl system can sound like.

Always appreciate your comments Dave *smile*. My dilemma is the majority of the material I currently play on my system is in the pop-music category, which is seldom recorded very well. After two system upgrades I have found that this is as far as I dare go before my music collection becomes unlistenable, hence why I have stopped at a bit of strange place regarding system components. Plus my return to vinyl playback is recent so my collection is very small - currently only about 20 albums.

The Pioneer tt fitted with a good cartridge, (Ortofon 2M Black), sounds exceptional and outperforms the Project Carbon it replaced. However, I am fully aware that this cartridge would sound infinitely better on a more capable tt. When my music tastes, (or vinyl collection), move more towards orchestral pieces then this will instigate the need to migrate to a better tt.

It is your goodself who has me considering active speakers as my next possible upgrade as I currently eye-up the PMC twotwo5's. Yes, another small speaker but anything larger in a room measuring 4mx3.2m would be overkill. But this is probably two years down the road as I have spent too much already getting to where I currently find myself and I need time to contemplate my next upgrade as a mistake at the next level would be very expensive.

 

[strms]

When I retired my 1210s from DJ duties about 10 years ago I started to use one of them to play vinyl at home. Realising that that the format, in my opinion and to my ears, sounded better than cds or down loads I started to look around for a TT that would be a replacement. It was at this time that I first joined in on the forums on this site. I stayed around for about six months and got bored with the same people exerting thier 'superior knowledge' on subjects such as ........................you guessed it cables etc. Dont get me wrong I like healthy debate but after all this time its the same 'debate' with different players, or is it that they have only changed their tags.

Anyway when looking to upgrade my TT I visited the ever helpful Unilet after a useful discussion I didnt leave with a new TT just a new cart.

Still really pleased with Technics, even have a spare incase this one ever packs in.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Budget vinyl is the same quality as full priced vinyl.

And will produce quite different results on a well set up, quality deck. And by quality deck, I'm not necessarily referring to several thousand pounds. Even decks in the £500-1000 can produce stunning results nowadays. And they don't need constant servicing, other than stylus and belt replacement.

 

[ifor]

You probably expected too much from £159 TT.

Or the vinyl medium, which is comfortably outclassed by CD.

At budget level I agree with you. Wow, there's a first! I'm not saying that I always disagree with you, just that I seldom agree.

Budget vinyl is the same quality as full priced vinyl.

Oh how I wish it was pre June 2013!

 

[drummerman]

Anyway when looking to upgrade my TT I visited the ever helpful Unilet after a useful discussion I didnt leave with a new TT just a new cart.

Arguably the most important part. For it to function properly the arm has to be the correct mass. For the arm to move freely but without excessive play the bearings have to be close tolerance and the cup precision made. For the whole assembly to only relay what's in the groove, the motor should ideally be isolated and not transmit any of its vibrations through to either arm or platter/bearing. For the platter to turn freely but without play for years, both platter and bearing have to be precision made and close tolerance ...

You can go on further (or start again with the cartridge itself). What I am trying to say is that there is quite a bit of precision engineering involved. - Granted it's not a car (but can be the same price ...) but it is a lot more than your average cd player assembled from off the shelf parts.

This all costs money and that is why buying a more expensive turntable than 'entry level' will normally (but not always) reep rewards.

 

[davedotco]

I went from vinyl and tape to playing a mix of both cd and vinyl in the mid 80's..........now its ripped cds via a NAS and vinyl. There is just something engaging with the sound of vinyl that digital just cant get close to. The recent resurgence in vinyl sales has got me going back into HMV, I stopped spending when they stopped selling vinyl. A good pressing on 180g vinyl in my opinion is the best way to listen to music. Ok you have to get up now and then to change/turn it over and streaming via sonos from the NAS or Tidal is a doddle from the sofa...................but there is something missing in digital.

There most certainly is. Digital is not "hip".

And all this love for DJ decks, sometimes I think Thompsonuxb is the only sane person on here.

I respect your views but I love my "DJ" deck and that's all that matters. Personal preference is... well... personal. Think my next move may well be PMC active speakers *crazy*.

Morning Dougk.

Indeed you are quite right, so long as you do not pretend that the deck is anything approaching hi-fi, though given your choice of speakers it is, for me, an unusual (crazy as you put it) viewpoint.

I have spoken about this many times but, to me, it boils down to one critical point. Despite the complaints about the sound quality of commercial music releases, there remains, thousands, perhaps millions of good recordings of great music out there.

So hearing those, as intended, is a big part of the enjoyment of recorded music for me, absoluely crucial in fact. As a user of PMC speakers, I would assume that you must at least have some sympathy for that view.

The really crazy thing in all this is that I absolutely love good vinyl playback and have said so many times. Even in the very recent thread on hi-end systems, when challenged to detail several of the best systems I had ever heard, two of the three I listed had vinyl front ends.

The problem is that good vinyl playback is expensive, I know a lot of people seem to believe otherwise, but as you say this "preference" seems simply absurd to me. Poor quality vinyl playback is, to me, every bit as bad as Mean and Green describes, worse in fact.

The lack of good dealers is a huge issue here, good decks need care and attention, good setup and all the rest, this is now, in my experience, so rare that few people have any idea what a good vinyl system can sound like.

Always appreciate your comments Dave *smile*. My dilemma is the majority of the material I currently play on my system is in the pop-music category, which is seldom recorded very well. After two system upgrades I have found that this is as far as I dare go before my music collection becomes unlistenable, hence why I have stopped at a bit of strange place regarding system components. Plus my return to vinyl playback is recent so my collection is very small - currently only about 20 albums.

The Pioneer tt fitted with a good cartridge, (Ortofon 2M Black), sounds exceptional and outperforms the Project Carbon it replaced. However, I am fully aware that this cartridge would sound infinitely better on a more capable tt. When my music tastes, (or vinyl collection), move more towards orchestral pieces then this will instigate the need to migrate to a better tt.

It is your goodself who has me considering active speakers as my next possible upgrade as I currently eye-up the PMC twotwo5's. Yes, another small speaker but anything larger in a room measuring 4mx3.2m would be overkill. But this is probably two years down the road as I have spent too much already getting to where I currently find myself and I need time to contemplate my next upgrade as a mistake at the next level would be very expensive.

I can most certainly relate to the 'quality' issues you mention. I listen to all my music via online steaming, currently Spotify Premium and I know this to be a sub-optimal source, so like you, I would not go to extremes with the playback system.

Back to record players, I have always found that good players minimise or actually eliminate many of the issues you mention, there are so many issues with budget players that they effectively emphasise surface noise (for various reasons), smear basslines and generate that famous 'analogue warmth' that has next to nothing to do with music.

Surprisingly (or not....) top end record players sound more like good digital than they sound like budget record players but these days such players are increasingly rare, I am struggling to recall the last time that I actually heard such a player, probably a Clearaudio setup I heard at a dealer friend's shop about 8-10 years ago.

Balancing the resolution with the material you want to play is a difficult trick, I have set my own playback ambitions at a level that will make some material difficult to listen to but most will be ok, and the good stuff outstanding.

 

[MeanandGreen]

I appreciate the responses and opinons posted. This is one of those subjects that really does come down to preference.

Last night I gave the turntable more of a decent listening session and tried ignoring the occasional pop and crackle.

I should clarify that there are some records in this collection that are in excellent new like condition. They do actually sound good and enjoyable, but playing the same releases on CD directly afterwards revals a more polished or clean presentation. There is definitely a more 'open' soundstage, (although not massively better). The bass is more realistic on the CD and of course no surface noise or background noise of any kind at all.

Yes some of the records are a touch worn, again not a problem with digital. The more worn vinyl doesn't sound at all pleasing. I will be looking into cleaning the vinyl properly.

Someone mentioned actually listening to the music instead of listening out for the flaws makes a big difference. I agree it does, but as an example Dire Straits 'Down To The Waterline' is quite a hissy recording to begin with (including on CD). Play it on vinyl and the the quiet intro is not only full of the recordings actual hiss, but also the slight rumble of the format and the occasional crackle. It gets in the way of the guitar. Then when the track actually bursts into life it seems dynamically lacking in impact compared with the CD version.

I think perhaps the fact my setup includes a subwoofer may also be highlighting the rumble of the disc rotating beneath the stylus. It's not really loud, but it's detactable.

I will be cleaning the records and using the Project deck in my computer room without a sub as part of the system. Perhaps the needle dropping experience will grow on me there.

I however prefer any digital format over vinyl sound quality as my preference.

 

[TrevC]

Budget vinyl is the same quality as full priced vinyl.

And will produce quite different results on a well set up, quality deck. And by quality deck, I'm not necessarily referring to several thousand pounds. Even decks in the £500-1000 can produce stunning results nowadays. And they don't need constant servicing, other than stylus and belt replacement.

What cartridge do you favour?

 

[The_Lhc]

I however prefer any digital format over vinyl sound quality as my preference.

So why are you bothering? You've already made your mind up you don't like it, I don't know why you'd carry on with it. Get your money back on the TT, sell the vinyl and use the money for something else, it makes no sense at all for you to continue with vinyl, you're never going to be happy with it.

 

[Crispion]

You were probably listening to records that hadn't been cared for, so they probably did crackle a bit, that's part of the vinyl experience,treating your records with care,I've got records nearly 40 yrs old that still sound great

 

[davedotco]

I appreciate the responses and opinons posted. This is one of those subjects that really does come down to preference.

Last night I gave the turntable more of a decent listening session and tried ignoring the occasional pop and crackle.

I should clarify that there are some records in this collection that are in excellent new like condition. They do actually sound good and enjoyable, but playing the same releases on CD directly afterwards revals a more polished or clean presentation. There is definitely a more 'open' soundstage, (although not massively better). The bass is more realistic on the CD and of course no surface noise or background noise of any kind at all.

Yes some of the records are a touch worn, again not a problem with digital. The more worn vinyl doesn't sound at all pleasing. I will be looking into cleaning the vinyl properly.

Someone mentioned actually listening to the music instead of listening out for the flaws makes a big difference. I agree it does, but as an example Dire Straits 'Down To The Waterline' is quite a hissy recording to begin with (including on CD). Play it on vinyl and the the quiet intro is not only full of the recordings actual hiss, but also the slight rumble of the format and the occasional crackle. It gets in the way of the guitar. Then when the track actually bursts into life it seems dynamically lacking in impact compared with the CD version.

I think perhaps the fact my setup includes a subwoofer may also be highlighting the rumble of the disc rotating beneath the stylus. It's not really loud, but it's detactable.

I will be cleaning the records and using the Project deck in my computer room without a sub as part of the system. Perhaps the needle dropping experience will grow on me there.

I however prefer any digital format over vinyl sound quality as my preference.

Once again, most of what you describe is attributable to a poor quality record player. A genuinely good player will do things very differently, they have the ability to separate the music from the noise which makes it far, far easier to listen to the music, the noise is still there, but it is somehow separate and inconsequential.

Low frequency noise is often a function of turntable quality too, poor suspension leads to microphony (acoustic feedback) that smears bass notes, throw in poorly chosen arm/cartridge matching and the 'rumble' hits a resonable point and the whole effect becomes unlistenable.

I am not, for one instance, trying to get you to spend a fortune on a good player, but for your own enlightenment I urge you to listen to a really good vinyl playback setup.

 

[MeanandGreen]

I however prefer any digital format over vinyl sound quality as my preference.

So why are you bothering? You've already made your mind up you don't like it, I don't know why you'd carry on with it. Get your money back on the TT, sell the vinyl and use the money for something else, it makes no sense at all for you to continue with vinyl, you're never going to be happy with it.

Why bother? Well... Why not?

Variety is the spice of life!

The records I've got were given to me for free, some of them are collectable and I'd actually like to own them. If I keep the TT all options of media playabck are covered. Some things are only on vinyl unless you import from elswhere. Plus I can either copy the records I like to CD-R with my Pioneer CD Recorder, or I can utilise the USB output into my iMac.

I intially bought the turtable with the idea of setting it up in my computer room. So I can play albums in full through good headphones while I'm busy doing whatever in there.

I probably wouldn't be happy with vinyl in my main system no. But as part of a second set up even though I prefer digital, I don't think it's going to hurt to have the option every so often.

 

[MeanandGreen]

I am not, for one instance, trying to get you to spend a fortune on a good player, but for your own enlightenment I urge you to listen to a really good vinyl playback setup.

I would love to listen to a higer end deck if I could. The thing is there is no such thing as a decent Hi-Fi dealer near me anymore.

There is an old Lenco 4 speed (16/33/45/78) turntable bulit like a tank in my parents loft. I don't know what condition it's in, but eventually I'll dig it out and see what maintence it needs to get running.

I don't know anyone with a proper Hi Fi anymore, let alone a good TT.

 

[TrevC]

There is an old Lenco 4 speed (16/33/45/78) turntable bulit like a tank in my parents loft. I don't know what condition it's in, but eventually I'll dig it out and see what maintence it needs to get running.

It was well built, but the arm isn't great. High mass. If the arm bearings seem to flop around there are two rubber pivots that need to be replaced. Not that difficult, only fiddly to change if you are mechanically adept, but you may struggle to source them nowadays. These http://www.desmovblocks.co.uk look OK. Sometimes the AC motor caused hum or rumble and the picky customers with quiet classical LPs would complain.

 

[MeanandGreen]

There is an old Lenco 4 speed (16/33/45/78) turntable bulit like a tank in my parents loft. I don't know what condition it's in, but eventually I'll dig it out and see what maintence it needs to get running.

It was well built, but the arm isn't great. High mass. If the arm bearings seem to flop around there are two rubber pivots that need to be replaced. Not that difficult, only fiddly to change if you are mechanically adept, but you may struggle to source them nowadays. These http://www.desmovblocks.co.uk look OK. Sometimes the AC motor caused hum or rumble and the picky customers with quiet classical LPs would complain.

Thanks alot for that link!

It's been a lot of years since I even clapped eyes on that Lenco TT. I didn't know it's model number, but loooking at the link it must be the L75. That's really useful thank you

 

[Frank Harvey]

Someone mentioned actually listening to the music instead of listening out for the flaws makes a big difference. I agree it does, but as an example Dire Straits 'Down To The Waterline' is quite a hissy recording to begin with (including on CD). Play it on vinyl and the the quiet intro is not only full of the recordings actual hiss, but also the slight rumble of the format and the occasional crackle. It gets in the way of the guitar. Then when the track actually bursts into life it seems dynamically lacking in impact compared with the CD version.

The hiss will be from the analogue master tape (hence on the vinyl and CD), but the rumble is being produced by the turntable. This issue is confined to budget (or badly designed) turntables. The Project you have is a budget turntable. Nothing wrong with that in itself, but manufacturers can only do so much for any given budget. Of course, it is down to the individual as to how much money they would be willing to invest in an item based on how much they're going to use it, but deciding on whether a music format is worth investing in shouldn't really be decided based on an entry level model, particularly seeing as a turntable's quality is based upon how well it is engineered. Below your deck, there is only the plastic clad decks that have remained exactly the same for the past 30 years..

I however prefer any digital format over vinyl sound quality as my preference.

That is evident in what you are posting up here.

 

[luckylion100]

and have purchased new 180gr vinyl, old stuff from charity shops and everything inbetween and yet rare is it that I'm subjected to endless pops, clicks or crackle, there seems to be a lot of people obviously doing a lot wrong. Sounds to me like the op's vinyl was the worse for wear.

I love my digital, high def recordings as much as the next man but this constant snobbery against the misguided fools that appreciate something different ( myself included)puts me off from contributing to this site. Some contributers on here clearly haven't progressed from their school bullying antics!

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with a good old Technics direct drive turntable. Wish i had one!

 

[Freddy58]

and have purchased new 180gr vinyl, old stuff from charity shops and everything inbetween and yet rare is it that I'm subjected to endless pops, clicks or crackle, there seems to be a lot of people obviously doing a lot wrong. Sounds to me like the op's vinyl was the worse for wear.

I love my digital, high def recordings as much as the next man but this constant snobbery against the misguided fools that appreciate something different ( myself included)puts me off from contributing to this site. Some contributers on here clearly haven't progressed from their school bullying antics!

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with a good old Technics direct drive turntable. Wish i had one!

And, b r e a t h e *biggrin* Don't let the b@stards grind you down

 

[davedotco]

This is a hi-fi forum, pointing out the superiorty of better equipment over lesser equipment is part of the reason it exists.

For the reasons pointed out by Mean and Green, few people get to hear good vinyl playback, it is simply too complex and expensive to survive in the current marketplace.

Despite the protestations of some enthusiasts, budget turntables are pretty poor and give absolutely no idea of what the format is capable of. Vinyl playback has been dumbed down to a level that it is now a fashion statement rather than a serious hi-fi source and as a genuine vinyl enthusiast, I find that quite painful to say.

 

[chebby]

... and as a genuine vinyl enthusiast ...

... what are you using?