It seems non-audiophiles never tire of proving that everything sounds the same.

[Al ears]

This can has been opened more than once. Worms must be off by now....

...being hermaphrodites, you only need one to start the whole thing up again.....

Hermaphrodites and also ruddy cunning if they can find a second can and seal themselves in it!!

 

[Anonymous]

I spent years depending on my own opinions on this stuff, but it led to my own chaos and confusion. Instead I listen to the engineers now. It's a technical discipline that I'm not qualified to understand. The brain is far more likely to believe what it wants to believe so one needs to remain largely objective.

That said, I don't dispute that some like different sounds/colour, etc.

 

[Timbot]

Perhaps I'm just blessed enough to like the sound of wire coat hangers as speaker cables?

 

[WinterRacer]

There's a big difference between saying that all equipment sounds the same and that some things are just not worrying about (within certain basic parameters).

In my experience, expensive transports and cables fall in the latter category. Re: amps, the most important thing is that they have plenty of power.

I don't think that many people claim that all equipment sounds the same, but I do think that a large number of people have been misled about what's important and what's not.

 

[CnoEvil]

This can has been opened more than once. Worms must be off by now....

...being hermaphrodites, you only need one to start the whole thing up again.....

Hermaphrodites and also ruddy cunning if they can find a second can and seal themselves in it!!

...I didn't know Worms could become Seals!

 

[the record spot]

Im surprised you didn't notice some difference between those you've listed. I find Monster cables dull, and VDH not much better. Never heard Atlas, but I've always liked Audioquest cables (well, I did in the 90's, not sure what they do now). I always found I liked what solid core cables did. Weird how you just don't see many of them around nowadays. I found the Cyrus solid core cable was the only thing that ever sounded good back when I worked at Sevenoaks, nothing else had the same grip and speed. Always seemed to lack a sort of 'fuzziness' that multi stranded cables had, producing a cleaner top end.

As I said, I'm not familiar with Atlas, so I can't really comment. But if you've found something that works in your system, regardless of price, that's great. That's what it's all about. It doesn't matter what it costs, as long as it works.

I've had Monster (Interlink 200s I think) , Van den Hul The Name, Audioquest Turquoise and later Copperhead, Atlas Navigator, my current Computergear AVs (cheap but well made) and QED Qunex 2 off the top of my head. Maybe a couple more. Up to the point I bought the Van den Huls I was "in" with the whole cable thing. Totally bought into it, the 10-15% bit, the difference they could make and then when I saw the WHF Buying Guide entry - I think it went along the lines of how the Name would "increase dynamics..." and generally make a big impact - I was off to buy a set. I'd just picked up a new CDP at the time (Linn Mimik) and decided to change the cable too. I'd been using the AQ Turquoise prior to this with the Linn. Swapped out the AQs, put the Name cable in. No change. Let it "burn-in" (bought into that with cables too), swapped the round. No difference. Eventually sold the VDHs and then the AQs went sometime later.

I bought the AQ Copperheads on the back of a recommendation in a Glasgow shop (Audio Merchants, which I think is no longer there sadly) and there was a minor difference, very subtle. Worth the ex-dem £50 price? Probably not, but they went in. Bought the Computergear ones about a year later and at £7 for a 2m pair, I wasn't expecting the earth, but they were solidly built, albeit not to the same standard as the major brands, but hardly poor either. Popped them in and...yep, they'll do!

Atlas cables were being sold off last year; big discounts and although I missed out on some Titans, I ended up with the Navigators. My rationale was that I'd hope to hear something different with a £200-odd cable. The sound took on a more bloated character, but not massively, again very subtle but would've been rather unimpressed if I'd paid the full price.

The upshot is that the cheap ones are currently plugged in, doing fine and looking a nice shade of blue that matches the carpet! The Atlas ones will be going on Gumtree and/or Ebay soon. Not had the time of late.

It's been said that it's my ears, or my stereo isn't revealing enough (I'm not sure how much more revealing it could've been at the time however...) and in the end that could well be so. However, I know the music well enough and how it should sound. I generally pick revealing systems anyway so know the music in detail, so I don't tend to agree that it's my ears (notwithstanding progressive hearing loss that ageing brings) or that my stereo is lacking in that regard.

By far and away the biggest changes are around core components, then the material and how it's been mastered. Ancillaries such as cables are just that unless you're considering silver vs. copper based in which case there is a noticeable difference between the two. Otherwise, I'd recommend anyone buys a well constructed cable and worries more about what they're playing and enjoying that than the relatively small bits of wires connecting it all up.

EDIT: And I'm sorry for my rather intemperate reply last night. "Tired and emotional" I think the saying went...

 

[chebby]

I spent years depending on my own opinions on this stuff, but it led to my own chaos and confusion. Instead I listen to the engineers now.

All hifi is designed by engineers. So if you listen to what they all say, then you are back to 'square one' again, having to decide which of their products you like best.

 

[Anonymous]

I spent years depending on my own opinions on this stuff, but it led to my own chaos and confusion. Instead I listen to the engineers now.

All hifi is designed by engineers. So if you listen to what they all say, then you are back to 'square one' again, having to decide which of their products you like best.

Yeah, there's always going to be a significant element of auditioning. By reading and learning about the technical nature of equipment, some of the challenges and some of the aspects that aren't a challenge anymore, you quickly focus your sights on what to listen to. So far this has paid off for me. As for any academic discipline, cross reference sources and build a picture. It may not be perfect but it should help guide things.

As for cables, whether there's a difference or not, I don't think it's worth the outlay. That's my opinion and I've spent hundreds on cables before.

 

[Anonymous]

So what is the context of the article that the OP is referring to? Can we have a link to it, Jax?

Peter Walker was a believer that amplifiers sound the same, but there's some context and qualification to what he said and believed.

 

[Frank Harvey]

The upshot is that the cheap ones are currently plugged in, doing fine and looking a nice shade of blue that matches the carpet!

There's a lot to be said for cables matching your decor! (seriously!)

 

[CnoEvil]

Yeah, there's always going to be a significant element of auditioning. By reading and learning about the technical nature of equipment, some of the challenges and some of the aspects that aren't a challenge anymore, you quickly focus your sights on what to listen to. So far this has paid off for me. As for any academic discipline, cross reference sources and build a picture. It may not be perfect but it should help guide things.

I agree, as long as products aren't ruled out on the basis of a technical standpoint. Given the huge variation in the opinions of different engineers and brand philosophies, the only way to know for certain, is to go and listen for oneself....so I agree with Chebby's point.

It would be easy if there was one solution that was clearly superior, but given the vagaries of personal taste and room acoustics, there isn't one; despite what design engineers (and marketing departments) would like you to believe.

 

[chebby]

You could talk to the designers/engineers from Arcam, Sudgen, MF, Rega, Naim, AVI, Marantz, Cambridge Audio (and half a dozen others) and get an entire spectrum of highly experienced, highly qualified opinions on what makes a great hifi system. Many of these opinions will conflict and this is a good thing.

It leads to the diversity of 'solutions' to the problem of making great sounding hi-fi that we all enjoy.

Without any formal education in audio electronics, how are you or I to decide on the best sounding solution from all those different approaches? They will all be qualified and plausible and will all have data and test documentation to back up their individual philosophies.

I might sit in a room talking with Roy Gandy and Terry Bateman* (of Rega Research) and leave absolutely convinced that only Rega have the right engineering approach. The next day I might sit in a room and talk to the team from Naim (or Cambridge Audio or whoever) and leave convinced that only their engineers really know what they are talking about.

That's the problem with unqualified people like you and I. The qualified professionals who do this stuff for a living are all going to be really persuasive.

So it all, ultimately, comes down to things like listening for ourselves, budget, features, design, perceived build quality. (Things we can understand.)

*I'd love to chat to these two over a pint

 

[the record spot]

I liked what Roy Gandy had to say about Rega; they could build anything within reason, it just so happens they make audio products, but they're geared up to deliver on many fronts if they had to. That's an engineer talking, not the head of a company that just does hifi.

 

[Anonymous]

I suspect that the concept of product voicing and colouration will come into the conversation, and this is subjective so requires auditioning and preference. Thus, when you read about technical approaches it's important to consider the engineering design objectives too. So, for example, the AVI design objective is accuracy (as far as I understand!). Based on what I've read of Peter Walker of Quad I think he shares the same approach. Based on the Rega product range and what I've heard, I doubt they share the same approach.

So in terms of this thread and the original post, albeit lacking context, perhaps equipment does sound (much) the same when following common design objectives. Some would argue that this must be accuracy, as per the name "hifi".

 

[Thaiman]

excellent post Cheb

The engineers of hifi manufactor will build electronics according to how they think it's sound best and within their budget range.

Let pick an example of amplifier

Amplifier should be totally transparent, their duty should only be take a signal that come in and make it louder without added or take away to the original signal. Is there a market for that? yes...I guess but when you add "flavours", "distortion (valve)", "colours" to the original signal suddenly the sound become much more interesting. It's doesn't matter so much anymore if the sound engineer that mix "master of reality" by Black Sabbath back in 1971 was absolutely drunk as a skunk the night before! as we can cater the sound to suite our need.

 

[CnoEvil]

So in terms of this thread and the original post, albeit lacking context, perhaps equipment does sound (much) the same when following common design objectives. Some would argue that this must be accuracy, as per the name "hifi".

I would argue that trying to design a product with absolute accuracy is all well and good, but it's the preference of the person handing over the cash, that will dictate whether a product will actually sell.

IMO. The purchase of a system is only a means to an end - The Enjoyment of Music.....and no one philosophy has the monopoly on that.

 

[moon]

Whilst Term Hi Fi could be used to describe equipment that's very accurate. One must remember that equipment like Graphic Equalizers came under this terminology not to long ago.......

 

[Anonymous]

IMO. The purchase of a system is only a means to an end - The Enjoyment of Music.....and no one philosophy has the monopoly on that.

Well said. I think quite a few people forget this and simply think about 'how it sounds'..... It doesn't matter if your hifi system is an iPod shuffle and stock headphones. More money (available and spent) does not equate to 'better' in your own terms. If you are happy = fine.

Nothing wrong with graphic equalisers, bass, tone and treble controls if that's what does it for you.

 

[Anonymous]

Technology gives us decisions to make.

You pay's ya money ya takes ya choice......simples.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Peter Walker was a believer that amplifiers sound the same, but there's some context and qualification to what he said and believed.

and they should. at least most of them. majority of amps on the market follow the same principle; class A, AB or D with negative feedback. tubes are all the same too, within their respective topologies.

there are only a handful of manufacturers known to me who try to tread a different path with amp designing.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Arcam, Sudgen, MF, Rega, Naim, AVI, Marantz, Cambridge Audio (and half a dozen others) (...) how are you or I to decide on the best sounding solution from all those different approaches?

they certainly don't represent different solutions. all of them are basically class A or AB with negative current feedback (with the only difference between A and AB being that in AB output devices are swithes on only when asked to amplify their half of signal and in A being swithed on all the time).

I'm not saying though that they all sound the same. the biggest differentiator would be" meating cost on a certain price point", which takes into account quality and value of components used and thus "where corners will be cut".

 

[jaxwired]

As for cables, whether there's a difference or not, I don't think it's worth the outlay. That's my opinion and I've spent hundreds on cables before.

My issue isn't with people that think expensive cables are a rip off, it's with people that keep saying they all sound the same. They don't.

I have expensive equipment but I've been very happy using Chord Crimson interconnects (their cheapest offering) because I like the sound they provide, but they do not sound identical to other interconnets I have tried. Nor do the amps I've owned all sound identical. Nor the CD players.

 

[jaxwired]

So what is the context of the article that the OP is referring to? Can we have a link to it, Jax?

Just a blog: http://consumerist.com/2008/03/do-coat-hangers-sound-as-good-monster-cables.html

 

[CnoEvil]

Arcam, Sudgen, MF, Rega, Naim, AVI, Marantz, Cambridge Audio (and half a dozen others) (...) how are you or I to decide on the best sounding solution from all those different approaches?

they certainly don't represent different solutions. all of them are basically class A or AB with negative current feedback (with the only difference between A and AB being that in AB output devices are swithes on only when asked to amplify their half of signal and in A being swithed on all the time).

I'm not saying though that they all sound the same. the biggest differentiator would be" meating cost on a certain price point", which takes into account quality and value of components used and thus "where corners will be cut".

Oldric my friend, I'm far from being technical, but (imo) there are differing solutions within that List....I believe Naim are heavily biased in Class B, AVI are active, Arcam have used Class G to good effect, and Linn have their own version of Class D, known as Class V (using their Chakra technology/switch mode power supplies).....well that's my understanding, but I could be mistaken. :shifty:

 

[Anonymous]

So what is the context of the article that the OP is referring to? Can we have a link to it, Jax?

Just a blog: http://consumerist.com/2008/03/do-coat-hangers-sound-as-good-monster-cables.html

Cheers Jax.

I don't think trying different cables at home is an adequate test to conclude that some bring the benefits claimed. Even if they do, the conditions under which people seem to try them are not adequate to make an objective conclusion. Differing levels of attenuation can be enough to plant the seed of pretty much any subjective user experience.

Anyway, I don't wish to make a cable debate, just the point that there's more to this stuff than many accept and it's worth investigating to help guide decisions more objectively and to save the wallet.