Isolation products

[Clarkey_71]

I know this subject divides opinion. Some believe the products work and others believe it is snake oil BS.

I'm rather sceptical myself but am always on the look out for a cost effective upgrade to my system. There are many products out there. Nordost Kones, Stillpoints, isoclear footers et al. Some are moderately priced and some are are so expensive I find it hard to understand how they can actually work and command such high prices.

Does anybody have any experience of these products, good or bad and also what components should they be placed under, as I do struggle with the concept that my pre or power amp could perform better with a particular product underneath them.

I'm not being mischievous. I am generally interested as my big money upgrades are behind me now, so am always looking out for a cheaper but effective upgrade.

Thanks.

 

[FennerMachine]

I've used a rack with metal frame and glass shelves. Now I have a pure oak TV shelf.

Also have some isolation spikes to go under devices. They are annoying as they move and have to be reseated. I stopped using them years ago.

No discernible audible difference between the different racks/shelves or isolation spikes to my ears.

Speaker stands might make a difference as a highly vibrating box needs a good platform or support.

 

[andyjm]

There is some science behind them, but it is generally misunderstood.

If (and its a big if) your equipment is microphonic, then it makes sense to try and stop it vibrating in time with the music as the vibrations will impact the sound quality.

If the equipment is on a shelf that is vibrating, then it needs to be isolated from the shelf (squidgy foam, squash balls etc). If however the shelf is steady and it is airbourne vibrations causing the problem then the equipment needs to be coupled (spikes, hard feet etc) to damp the vibrations.

Generally the products on sale don't distinguish between coupling and isolation, and if they dont, that in itself should set the snake oil alarm bells ringing.

An easy way to test whether your equipment is microphonic to see whether you are wasting your time is to turn it way up with no music playing. Tap the piece of equipment with a pencil. No sound out the speaker? its not microphonic.

Valve amps are microphonic as are turntables, most (if not all) modern semiconductor based equipment is insensitive to vibration.

 

[Gazzip]

Using a good isolation support system with valve amplification can provide an improvement in sound quality because it reduces microphonics. The effect that vibration can have on valve amps can easily be demonstrated by turning the amp up to full with no music playing and gently tapping on a valve which results in a sound comnig from your speakers that matches your tapping rhythm. I purchased an Audiophile Base Starbase support system for my setup (valve DAC output stage and valve pre-amp) and it really did seem to make a positive difference.

Using a support system for a CD player is questionable as I am pretty sure that most transports have adequate vibration isolation built in to them. I can however understand why one would want to do this.

Using one for solidstate electronics is utterly pointless unless you are trying to isolate a buzzing (read vibrating) transformer from affecting other components that are sensitive to vibration (read valve amps).

Using one for a turntable I would suspect is a given althoughh I don't have a turntable so cannot say for sure.....

 

[cheeseboy]

I agree with what's been said about thing that do/may need isolation.

Solid state or computers on the other hand, no. Hence the snake oil sales people will try and sell you these...

http://www.trueaudiophile.com/brands/Atomic-Audio-Labs.html

Wish I'd thought of that one...

 

[Al ears]

This subject can be a can of worms and, not being affluent enough for the Kones / Stillpoints me idea of isolation is simple and appears to work.

I have a turntable that is on a wall-mounted shelf and, belts-and-braces I know, I have an acrylic paltform supported by 4 cheap sorbothane half-domes. Likewise under my CD transport I have larger sorbothane half-domes and is mounted on a good wood hifi rack. There are also thin sorbothane discs under feet of my power amp because it does have valves in it.

Because speakers are standing on a wooden floor I have removed spikes, because I want to isolate them rather than couple. Spikes replaced with 'shoes'.

And that is all I feel my system requires.

 

[ellisdj]

Stillpoints are expensive but they are awesome there is no 2 ways about it. Isolation is a very important factor and I think its important in places many people wouldnt think it. I have done blind testing on this and it was proved to me there and then.

You have to fiddle with stillpoints and find the best spot under the piece of kit its not necassirly in all 4 corners but they do reward - you will find very little bad feedbakc from owners.

There is no way my Meridian processor can be microphonic but its extremely suceptible to isolation products and placement underneath - I have 4 still points ultra mini underneath and did testing against another isolation system with another person and it was clear to both of us the improvements from the still points. I went straight up the shop and bought some

I have found a similar product that is 1/4 of the cost of stillpoints but still performs really well and the company is redesigning a new product at the minute that I have had a little bit of info into. Just waiting for them to send me some to test out. Below is a link to them

I like these but with a ceramic bearing not steel and I use a combo of aluminium top with no rubber and a delrin base with rubber. I have many sets of these isolation feet, pretty much under everything - they are excellent for the money!!

 

[Clarkey_71]

Thanks for your comments. They all provide food for thought.

My speakers are spiked and sit in blue horizon cups on a solid wood floor. I think this should be ok.

My equipment rack is very solid and my power amp very heavy. As it is solid state, not sure what can be done.

My pre amp is much lighter and does have valves on the phono stage, so may benefit from either coupling or isolation.

My turntable is sorted, so not sure any improvements can be made there.

I'm one of those people who loves hifi, loves music but doesn't really have the first idea how any of it really works. The seller's dream!

I'm interested in this subject and will dig around a little more.

Thanks.

 

[matt49]

Hilariously nonsensical. The only place you need isolation is under items that are microphonic (like record decks, valve amplifiers) and liable to feed back and it's easy to establish if that is the case by tapping them with the volume up.

Isolation can also work well under speakers in some circumstances. Speakers that put out lots of LF energy can be a problem on suspended wooden floors, because the floor can transmit vibrations back to the speakers. In these circumstances something like the (rather expensive but soundly engineered) Townshend products can bring benefits.

 

[TrevC]

Stillpoints are expensive but they are awesome there is no 2 ways about it. Isolation is a very important factor and I think its important in places many people wouldnt think it. I have done blind testing on this and it was proved to me there and then.

You have to fiddle with stillpoints and find the best spot under the piece of kit its not necassirly in all 4 corners but they do reward - you will find very little bad feedbakc from owners.

There is no way my Meridian processor can be microphonic but its extremely suceptible to isolation products and placement underneath - I have 4 still points ultra mini underneath and did testing against another isolation system with another person and it was clear to both of us the improvements from the still points. I went straight up the shop and bought some

I have found a similar product that is 1/4 of the cost of stillpoints but still performs really well and the company is redesigning a new product at the minute that I have had a little bit of info into. Just waiting for them to send me some to test out. Below is a link to them

I like these but with a ceramic bearing not steel and I use a combo of aluminium top with no rubber and a delrin base with rubber. I have many sets of these isolation feet, pretty much under everything - they are excellent for the money!!

The only place you really need isolation is under items that are microphonic (like record decks, valve amplifiers) and liable to feed back and it's easy to establish if that is the case by tapping them with the volume up.

 

[michael hoy]

Hilariously nonsensical. The only place you need isolation is under items that are microphonic (like record decks, valve amplifiers) and liable to feed back and it's easy to establish if that is the case by tapping them with the volume up.

Isolation can also work well under speakers in some circumstances. Speakers that put out lots of LF energy can be a problem on suspended wooden floors, because the floor can transmit vibrations back to the speakers. In these circumstances something like the (rather expensive but soundly engineered) Townshend products can bring benefits.

Agree that not all items need isolation, I do however use the townshend isolation bars for my subwoofer they do work better than a granite slab in my room.

They are not cheap and I purchased my direct at a show for a lot less than some distributors are charging.

 

[ellisdj]

I have tested isolation under many products - everything has power supplies, most things vibrate - anything that spins a disc vibrates - this is not good

Isolation products can make huge differences used in places you wouldnt expect - under products such as mains distribution for example and under speakers.

Also there is huge amount of airbourne caused vibration from the speakers / subs which is also not good.

Spikes do nothing except make matters worse - generally being solid means nothing - chances are it will still transfer energy.

What make stillpoints so good - they drain away the vibrations as well as stopping them tranferring into the product - anything rubber under a component like a lot of feet will trap those vibrations in the product and smear the end result.

These are no snake oil products, they are the result of a univeristy project - their big feet were designed to elevate a yamaha pianos performance in a concert auditorium to match that of a steinway piano back to certain rows in the audtorium - they achieved this by isolating it and the rest of the products came from this research. There are a few you tube videos about them

You do not know the ability of isolation until you get a stillpoints SS range demo - however they are not cheap and they are addictive products. I did not believe they would be so good until I tried them and I have only tried the babies of the range.

If I had the budget I would have the Ultra SS's or the Ultra 5's under my speakers 100%

 

[ellisdj]

I have also blind tested isolation under a cd player and was able to tell the difference 3 times in a completely blind test, even though | didnt know that is what I was testing - this is not a microphonic product as you say it is but the effects were still audible to 3 people. 100% proved to me that day

 

[Covenanter]

I have tested isolation under many products - everything has power supplies, most things vibrate - anything that spins a disc vibrates - this is not good

Isolation products can make huge differences used in places you wouldnt expect - under products such as mains distribution for example and under speakers.

Also there is huge amount of airbourne caused vibration from the speakers / subs which is also not good.

Spikes do nothing except make matters worse - generally being solid means nothing - chances are it will still transfer energy.

What make stillpoints so good - they drain away the vibrations as well as stopping them tranferring into the product - anything rubber under a component like a lot of feet will trap those vibrations in the product and smear the end result.

These are no snake oil products, they are the result of a univeristy project - their big feet were designed to elevate a yamaha pianos performance in a concert auditorium to match that of a steinway piano back to certain rows in the audtorium - they achieved this by isolating it and the rest of the products came from this research. There are a few you tube videos about them

You do not know the ability of isolation until you get a stillpoints SS range demo - however they are not cheap and they are addictive products. I did not believe they would be so good until I tried them and I have only tried the babies of the range.

If I had the budget I would have the Ultra SS's or the Ultra 5's under my speakers 100%

I think you will find that airborn vibration from speakers is generally felt to be a good thing.

Chris

 

[andyjm]

There is no way my Meridian processor can be microphonic but its extremely suceptible to isolation products and placement underneath - I have 4 still points ultra mini underneath and did testing against another isolation system with another person and it was clear to both of us the improvements from the still points. I went straight up the shop and bought some

You are of course entitled to your view, but as you point out, the Meridian processor is very unlikely to be microphonic.

Given that there is no obvious physical reason for the improvement, it is most likely that any improvements you perceive are the result of suggestion bias.

 

[Al ears]

There is no way my Meridian processor can be microphonic but its extremely suceptible to isolation products and placement underneath - I have 4 still points ultra mini underneath and did testing against another isolation system with another person and it was clear to both of us the improvements from the still points. I went straight up the shop and bought some

You are of course entitled to your view, but as you point out, the Meridian processor is very unlikely to be microphonic.

Given that there is no obvious physical reason for the improvement, it is most likely that any improvements you perceive are the result of suggestion bias.

'ere we go!.

 

[ellisdj]

There is no way my Meridian processor can be microphonic but its extremely suceptible to isolation products and placement underneath - I have 4 still points ultra mini underneath and did testing against another isolation system with another person and it was clear to both of us the improvements from the still points. I went straight up the shop and bought some

You are of course entitled to your view, but as you point out, the Meridian processor is very unlikely to be microphonic.

Given that there is no obvious physical reason for the improvement, it is most likely that any improvements you perceive are the result of suggestion bias.

This could possibly be true obviosuly - however when I tested the stillpoints I really did not want them to be better than the isolation products I was already using but they was - so much so I went straight up the shop and bought some they made that much of an impression on me. I was extremely skeptical of them and did not think they would be good - especially as not as good as they were - I had to hold my hands up and say I was wrong - they are good.

Due to the height differences in the products it only took a few seconds to raise and lower the processor off of the different products so the testing was quick between the 2 products whuich helped.

They are expensive but they are good

 

[cheeseboy]

'ere we go!.

not really. A case in point is mp3 players. Surely if vibration was such the issue that Ellis is saying it is, then when you listened to something on an mp3 player the sound would change *all of the time* if you were walking. Hell you could test it by sitting down and moving the player around and shaking it whilst you listen to it. Something everybody can try.

 

[ellisdj]

I found this review after I tested the stillpoints out - I was looking for reviews on the more expensive products.

He finds the meridian kit very susceptible for isolation products same as me

 

[ellisdj]

'ere we go!.

not really. A case in point is mp3 players. Surely if vibration was such the issue that Ellis is saying it is, then when you listened to something on an mp3 player the sound would change *all of the time* if you were walking. Hell you could test it by sitting down and moving the player around and shaking it whilst you listen to it. Something everybody can try.

That is a good point - I used to get better performance from my old cd walkwan if I didnt shake it about

 

[steve_1979]

'ere we go!.

Why is it on a HiFi forum as soon as someone posts something with logical rational reasoning you know an argument is about to break out?

 

[Gazzip]

'ere we go!.

not really. A case in point is mp3 players. Surely if vibration was such the issue that Ellis is saying it is, then when you listened to something on an mp3 player the sound would change *all of the time* if you were walking. Hell you could test it by sitting down and moving the player around and shaking it whilst you listen to it. Something everybody can try.

If you do this on your train commute to work in the morning you may even get a table to yourself. Perhaps scatter some empty Stella cans around you for good measure and shout at your own reflection in the glass?

 

[TrevC]

I have also blind tested isolation under a cd player and was able to tell the difference 3 times in a completely blind test, even though | didnt know that is what I was testing - this is not a microphonic product as you say it is but the effects were still audible to 3 people. 100% proved to me that day

I hope the Jehovah's witnesses don't come round to your house.

 

[TrevC]

I have tested isolation under many products - everything has power supplies, most things vibrate - anything that spins a disc vibrates - this is not good

Isolation products can make huge differences used in places you wouldnt expect - under products such as mains distribution for example and under speakers.

Also there is huge amount of airbourne caused vibration from the speakers / subs which is also not good.

Spikes do nothing except make matters worse - generally being solid means nothing - chances are it will still transfer energy.

What make stillpoints so good - they drain away the vibrations as well as stopping them tranferring into the product - anything rubber under a component like a lot of feet will trap those vibrations in the product and smear the end result.

These are no snake oil products, they are the result of a univeristy project - their big feet were designed to elevate a yamaha pianos performance in a concert auditorium to match that of a steinway piano back to certain rows in the audtorium - they achieved this by isolating it and the rest of the products came from this research. There are a few you tube videos about them

You do not know the ability of isolation until you get a stillpoints SS range demo - however they are not cheap and they are addictive products. I did not believe they would be so good until I tried them and I have only tried the babies of the range.

If I had the budget I would have the Ultra SS's or the Ultra 5's under my speakers 100%

I think you will find that airborn vibration from speakers is generally felt to be a good thing.

Chris

:O)

 

[ellisdj]

I have also blind tested isolation under a cd player and was able to tell the difference 3 times in a completely blind test, even though | didnt know that is what I was testing - this is not a microphonic product as you say it is but the effects were still audible to 3 people. 100% proved to me that day

I hope the Jehovah's witnesses don't come round to your house.

Actually they come here a lot to listen to listen to Good Sound !! ....