Interconnect

[TrevC]

your taken into the music..by using coat hangers and bell wire and freebie rubbish interconnects your missing so much in the music..yes you can hear the music on your held back hifi but your not taken on a musical journey? Your waiting for a bus that never arrives.

There you go again, stating facts!!

Or is that another one of jokes?

Its just your opinion, its whats in your mind.

You realise Dave worked in the hifi industry for many years, I'm sure he has heard more cables than you ever will.

so someone has worked in the industry for years that makes their utterances sacrosanct? What a notion? Using coat hangers? Lol..you and your mate I can't take seriously..sorry..if you don't like my views? Feel free to ignore me..

It's more sensible versus your silliness.

 

[BigH]

your taken into the music..by using coat hangers and bell wire and freebie rubbish interconnects your missing so much in the music..yes you can hear the music on your held back hifi but your not taken on a musical journey? Your waiting for a bus that never arrives.

There you go again, stating facts!!

Or is that another one of jokes?

Its just your opinion, its whats in your mind.

You realise Dave worked in the hifi industry for many years, I'm sure he has heard more cables than you ever will.

so someone has worked in the industry for years that makes their utterances sacrosanct? What a notion? Using coat hangers? Lol..you and your mate I can't take seriously..sorry..if you don't like my views? Feel free to ignore me..

They are your views and opinions yes you can make them know but Yuo should not state them as facts which you say you don't do but you clearly do. You imply that everyone else is wrong and they have no idea, just saying that a lot of people with much more experience than you have different opinions. As you refuse to take any notice of measurements your opinion carries little weight.

 

[TomSawyer]

And I will notice no difference between those cheap ones and my handmade variable thickness wire (solid silver) LFD manufacture..is that what your proposing?

These interconnects aren't ordinary cables....do do do do do do, j'taime....they're M&S handmade, variable thickness wire (solid silver) LFD interconnects

Sorry, couldn't resist. How much would cables like this cost?

 

[TomSawyer]

sorry again...double post.

 

[keeper of the quays]

..wide range equipment reveals this..your taken into the music..by using coat hangers and bell wire and freebie rubbish interconnects your missing so much in the music..yes you can hear the music on your held back hifi but your not taken on a musical journey? Your waiting for a bus that never arrives.

So, my 12 year old Krell power amplifier is full of dust - I thought this would be a good opportunity to blow the dust out and have a look at what £5500 back in 2004 had bought me. Frankly, I was shocked. Instead of the internal audio interconnects being made from pure gold, insulated with woven hair plucked from the bum of a unicorn, they had used computer grade ribbon cable. RIBBON CABLE!

I couldn't believe it.   

Didn't they understand timing??  What about richness?? It must be leaking out all over the inside of my amplifer.

Alternatively, perhaps the engineer who designed the amp hadn't read forums like this about interconnects, had applied good engineering principles, and had concluded that ribbon cable was an excellent solution for his requirements.

I appreciate not everyone has a technical background, but how about applying some common sense.  Look inside that fancy amp you own.  What has the designer used?  Interconnect costing £££? or normal hookup cable.  The laws of physics don't change as soon as the connection leaves the amp.   

 

my amp is a quad 909 and my friends amp where I first heard this was a naim amp...i trust my ears not others opinions..i just shared my view on a piece of music I listened to..the point I was making is poor quality cables and interconnects hamper the sound! If you used a quality interconnect on your krell amp it will sound much better than using a freebie one? Regardless of your view of it's construction..

Keeper, I am an old dude, and I have been at this game a while. While it is easy to claim all sorts of things on the net, I do have an educational background in this stuff, and did design equipment for a well known broadcaster when I graduated (albeit a few decades ago). 

People love to tinker.  Enthusiasts love to tinker more.  When I was starting out, mags like 'everday electronics' and 'wireless world' were full of mods and tricks that enthusiastic owners could apply to their equipment.  The equipment was accessible, and real improvements could be made by a keen owner with a soldering iron.  These days, a board covered in surface mount components so small you can barely see them, and most of the real work done by software has locked owners out of 'modding' their equipment.

But enthusiasts still want to tinker - so they tinker with the only thing they can - the wiring.  The same is true in other fields.  Car enthusiast are reduced to fitting 'induction kits' (changing the air filter arrangements) and brightly coloured shock absorbers to modify their cars, computer enthusiasts fit plumbing and radiators to their computers.  It is the same desire to personalise and customise - but the technology has moved beyond the capability of the owners to modify.

So as an enthusiast, I understand the never ending threads about wiring - as an (ex) engineer, I  despair slightly at the belief that two perfectly good, properly specified pieces of wire could possibly alter an audio signal sufficiently to be audible. 

I take your point...no disrespect old timer! Lol..are you telling me to use a £20 pair of interconnects between my quad power amp and my musical fidelity pre amp? And I will notice no difference between those cheap ones and my handmade variable thickness wire (solid silver) LFD manufacture..is that what your proposing?

Providing that your LFD cables are not deliberately designed to change the signal (I am not familiar with them) then a pair of (say) terminated Van Damme interconnects, costing £18 + shipping will sound exactly the same.

This is precisely what is being said, compedent, well made interconnects will sound the same providing they have not been deliberately engineered to sound different.

 

with respect? You are a peddler of twaddle..i would suggest you and your mate..he can carry the pots and pans..go and sell pots and pans door to door! You may be able convince bored housewives that your knowledge of pots and pans and coat hangers is second to none..but your twaddle convinces me not! A £20 interconnect between three and half thousand pounds of equipment? Hahahaha..your funny! You and your mate should do a double act! Hang on..thats what your doing already! Lol..you spout some nonsense..you are then quite rightly held to account..you become pompous and your pet poodle leaps to your defence and starts yapping! Hahahaha..its very funny!

 

[keeper of the quays]

Hahahaha..its very funny!

No actually what's very funny is that the innards of some of the best HiFi money can buy sees the audio passing from board to board via computer-grade ribbon cables but gullible people like you and your ilk think the external cabling makes some kind of difference, beyond a standard that can be bought with very little money. Manufacturers of hifi tomfoolery rely on your ignorance to keep their wallets fat and have no reason to educate you otherwise. In fact quite the opposite.

What I completely object to though is when I tell people I'm a hifi enthusiast they automatically think I'm someone with these kind of ridiculous views. Frankly it's embarrasing and is the reason we as a so-called collective of like-minded enthusiasts have been a public mockery for 30 odd years.

well major you got good equipment..if they are joined up by £20 interconnects? Who is the joke? I suggest you give me your Cyrus kit and your nice cd player in return I'll provide you with a 70s Hitachi system that is all bass and treble! So I'll appreciate your equipment using my decent interconnects and cables..as you obviously can't hear the difference between good kit and bad kit! Because anyone who has kit like yours and doesn't use top quality cables and interconnects is missing out..wake up to reality

 

[MajorFubar]

Hahahaha..its very funny!

No actually what's very funny is that the innards of some of the best HiFi money can buy sees the audio passing from board to board via computer-grade ribbon cables but gullible people like you and your ilk think the external cabling makes some kind of difference, beyond a standard that can be bought with very little money. Manufacturers of hifi tomfoolery keep their wallets fat by relying on your ignorance and your self-perpetuated refusal to learn the facts, and they have no reason to educate you otherwise. In fact quite the opposite.

While what you believe shouldn't bother me in the slightest, it does, because when I tell people I'm a hifi enthusiast they automatically think I'm someone with these kind of ridiculous views. Frankly it's embarrasing and is the reason we as a so-called collective of like-minded enthusiasts have been a public mockery for 30 odd years.

 

[MajorFubar]

you obviously can't hear the difference between good kit and bad kit! Because anyone who has kit like yours and doesn't use top quality cables and interconnects is missing out..wake up to reality

Answer me yes or no: are the computer-grade ribbon cables linking the various circuit boards in the world's most expensive hifi equipment compromising the sound quality or not?

If you say no, then you are effectively agreeing that beyond a cheaply achievable minimum standard, the rest it's just bunkum. And I will agree.

If you say yes, then in your opinion, these manufacturers are purposefully crippling the performance of their products by using cheap substandard internal parts. And that's got to be rubbish.

Pick one, don't wangle out of it.

 

[ellisdj]

Back to this from before - who can demo a reference quality sound from all cheap cables - for another forum member to hear and validate ?? Who is that confident

 

[TrevC]

A £20 interconnect between three and half thousand pounds of equipment? Hahahaha..your funny! You and your mate should do a double act! Hang on..thats what your doing already! Lol..you spout some nonsense..you are then quite rightly held to account..you become pompous and your pet poodle leaps to your defence and starts yapping! Hahahaha..its very funny!

Petrol only costing 99p a litre in my Ferrari? Haha 'your' funny!

It really doesn't matter what your interconnect is made from, it will sound exactly the same as any other bit of screened wire. Ha ha you wasted your money!!!

 

[TrevC]

Back to this from before - who can demo a reference quality sound from all cheap cables - for another forum member to hear and validate ?? Who is that confident

I'm confident you will fail any interconnect blind test, for one reason. There are no differences to be heard. You can prove it yourself with a mono source and a null test, far more accurate than using your ears.

 

[drummerman]

you obviously can't hear the difference between good kit and bad kit! Because anyone who has kit like yours and doesn't use top quality cables and interconnects is missing out..wake up to reality

Answer me yes or no: are the computer-grade ribbon cables linking the various circuit boards in the world's most expensive hifi equipment compromising the sound quality or not?

If you say no, then you are effectively agreeing that beyond a cheaply achievable minimum standard, the rest it's just bunkum. And I will agree.

If you say yes, then in your opinion, these manufacturers are purposefully crippling the performance of their products by using cheap substandard internal parts. And that's got to be rubbish.

Pick one, don't wangle out of it.

It makes me whince when I see them using ribbons to connect boards. Luckily, many don't in critical areas ie. signal rather than control circuitry.

Some use similar multi socketry but instead of ribbons use different cabling, often separated and twisted.

Little things maybe but it shows attention to detail. Isn't that what you'd pay for in a good product?

Just imagine how much better they could be using proper cable

 

[TrevC]

you obviously can't hear the difference between good kit and bad kit! Because anyone who has kit like yours and doesn't use top quality cables and interconnects is missing out..wake up to reality

Answer me yes or no: are the computer-grade ribbon cables linking the various circuit boards in the world's most expensive hifi equipment compromising the sound quality or not?

If you say no, then you are effectively agreeing that beyond a cheaply achievable minimum standard, the rest it's just bunkum. And I will agree.

If you say yes, then in your opinion, these manufacturers are purposefully crippling the performance of their products by using cheap substandard internal parts. And that's got to be rubbish.

Pick one, don't wangle out of it.

It makes me whince when I see them using ribbons to connect boards. Luckily, many don't in critical areas ie. signal rather than control circuitry.

Some use similar multi socketry but instead of ribbons use different cabling, often separated and twisted.

Little things maybe but it shows attention to detail. Isn't that what you'd pay for in a good product?

Just imagine how much better they could be using proper cable

'Imagine' being the operative word. :O)

 

[MajorFubar]

Still officially waiting Keeper's response to my direct question, but I respect his right not to be nailed to the keyboard all the time. Though I notice he's still online as I type.

 

[drummerman]

you obviously can't hear the difference between good kit and bad kit! Because anyone who has kit like yours and doesn't use top quality cables and interconnects is missing out..wake up to reality

Answer me yes or no: are the computer-grade ribbon cables linking the various circuit boards in the world's most expensive hifi equipment compromising the sound quality or not?

If you say no, then you are effectively agreeing that beyond a cheaply achievable minimum standard, the rest it's just bunkum. And I will agree.

If you say yes, then in your opinion, these manufacturers are purposefully crippling the performance of their products by using cheap substandard internal parts. And that's got to be rubbish.

Pick one, don't wangle out of it.

It makes me whince when I see them using ribbons to connect boards. Luckily, many don't in critical areas ie. signal rather than control circuitry.

Some use similar multi socketry but instead of ribbons use different cabling, often separated and twisted.

Little things maybe but it shows attention to detail. Isn't that what you'd pay for in a good product?

Just imagine how much better they could be using proper cable

'Imagine' being the operative word. :O)

You little rascal ...

 

[keeper of the quays]

you obviously can't hear the difference between good kit and bad kit! Because anyone who has kit like yours and doesn't use top quality cables and interconnects is missing out..wake up to reality

Answer me yes or no: are the computer-grade ribbon cables linking the various circuit boards in the world's most expensive hifi equipment compromising the sound quality or not?

If you say no, then you are effectively agreeing that beyond a cheaply achievable minimum standard, the rest it's just bunkum. And I will agree.

If you say yes, then in your opinion, these manufacturers are purposefully crippling the performance of their products by using cheap substandard internal parts. And that's got to be rubbish.

Pick one, don't wangle out of it.

to be honest major..i have no idea? Ribbon cables inside amps I can't comment on..i can only speak on things I have some experience on which is cables and interconnects..i have many! I can assure you that £20 interconnects do not cut the mustard on your kit..any reviewer on what hifi or anywhere else for that matter will say the same thing! If you had entry level kit..£20 is ok..i would go double...your on a oracle with cheap cables and interconnects..you got ocean liner equipment! And your paddling? Why? I find this bewildering..fair enough with trev c..I'm not at all sure he has any hifi? Just likes to rankle does Mr c (apt! Lol) but you gave a fine review on your cd player! Just imagine what your review could have been with proper interconnects and cables..

 

[lindsayt]

At this stage of the thread it might be appropriate for me to recap my last interconnect demo.

It was between a non-branded £2 ebayed interconnect, a Puresonic (0.5 metre long) that I got for free with an amplifier I bought 10 years ago that retailed at £20 new and a £120 (1.5 metre long) Atratus that had been getting very good reviews on hi-fi forum land.

On some test tracks I could hear a very slight coarsening in the treble between the £2 cable and the other two. On some tracks I could detect no difference.

I could hear no difference whatsoever between the Puresonic and the Atratus cable. It's the sort of thing where you could drive yourself bonkers trying to detect a difference. Every time I thought I heard a slight difference, it was dispelled when I changed back to the original cable. Totally different to my last speaker demo where I could hear clear differences in the first few seconds.

I was very careful in leaving the volume untouched for each of my listening tests.

That was purely my test in my system with my ears. I'm happy to accept that other people have had different results when testing interconnects in their systems.

 

[MajorFubar]

to be honest major..i have no idea? Ribbon cables inside amps I can't comment on..i can only speak on things I have some experience on which is cables and interconnects..i have many! I can assure you that £20 interconnects do not cut the mustard on your kit..any reviewer on what hifi or anywhere else for that matter will say the same thing!

I respect your honesty that effectively you can't see the connection (sorry pun) between my reference to the quality of internal wiring compared to the quality of external wiring. But if you'll properly sit down and think about it, you'll get my point.

The only real reason you think super duper high quality interconnects make one iota of difference in place of something cheap and adequately made is because people you hold in higher regard than me have told you so, and you don't have the technical knowledge to understand why it cannot be so. In fact the only reason you will have even tried such cables in the first place is because you were told to do so by someone who one way or another had a vested interest in selling you some.

 

[keeper of the quays]

And I will notice no difference between those cheap ones and my handmade variable thickness wire (solid silver) LFD manufacture..is that what your proposing?

These interconnects aren't ordinary cables....do do do do do do, j'taime....they're M&S handmade, variable thickness wire (solid silver) LFD interconnects

Sorry, couldn't resist. How much would cables like this cost?

mine is a prototype it's very thick! And not very bendy! Look it up if you want..lfd interconnects my one is top of the range..

 

[drummerman]

In addition to foobies comment and my previous reply, external cabling is often subjected to different problems than internal wiring. These are different again for interconnects and speaker cables.

Whilst any internal re-wiring is beyond the scope of most, changing leads between components and speakers is far easier and most probably more effective. Having said that, I do like to see attention paid to internal layout too but thats just me.

 

[keeper of the quays]

At this stage of the thread it might be appropriate for me to recap my last interconnect demo.

It was between a non-branded £2 ebayed interconnect, a Puresonic (0.5 metre long) that I got for free with an amplifier I bought 10 years ago that retailed at £20 new and a £120 (1.5 metre long) Atratus that had been getting very good reviews on hi-fi forum land.

On some test tracks I could hear a very slight coarsening in the treble between the £2 cable and the other two. On some tracks I could detect no difference.

I could hear no difference whatsoever between the Puresonic and the Atratus cable. It's the sort of thing where you could drive yourself bonkers trying to detect a difference. Every time I thought I heard a slight difference, it was dispelled when I changed back to the original cable. Totally different to my last speaker demo where I could hear clear differences in the first few seconds.

I was very careful in leaving the volume untouched for each of my listening tests.

 

That was purely my test in my system with my ears. I'm happy to accept that other people have had different results when testing interconnects in their systems.

try a solid silver wire interconnect..£45 ebay

 

[drummerman]

And I will notice no difference between those cheap ones and my handmade variable thickness wire (solid silver) LFD manufacture..is that what your proposing?

These interconnects aren't ordinary cables....do do do do do do, j'taime....they're M&S handmade, variable thickness wire (solid silver) LFD interconnects

Sorry, couldn't resist. How much would cables like this cost?

mine is a prototype it's very thick! And not very bendy! Look it up if you want..lfd interconnects my one is top of the range..

I think LFD use solid core conductors hence the stiffness. The more you pay the more conductors are there.

 

[keeper of the quays]

to be honest major..i have no idea? Ribbon cables inside amps I can't comment on..i can only speak on things I have some experience on which is cables and interconnects..i have many! I can assure you that £20 interconnects do not cut the mustard on your kit..any reviewer on what hifi or anywhere else for that matter will say the same thing!

I respect your honesty that effectively you can't see the connection (sorry pun) between my reference to the quality of internal wiring compared to the quality of external wiring. But if you'll properly sit down and think about it, you'll get my point.

The only real reason you think super duper high quality interconnects make one iota of difference in place of something cheap and adequately made is because people you hold in higher regard than me have told you so, and you don't have the technical knowledge to understand why it cannot be so. In fact the only reason you will have even tried such cables in the first place is because you were told to do so by someone who one way or another had a vested interest in selling you some.

I do have some freewill..lol I would add a pair of my speakers went wrong and I took off binding post and saw very thin ordinary looking cable to binding post from internal speaker! Same with my akito arm on turntable.tiny wires to cart!! This doesn't mean thin cables to amp? I would happily spend less money on cables if I could..I can't..and if I did? I'll just listen to my Sony hi res player thru my AKG 550s..i would give up my hifi..no point..for a hapworth of tar? The ship was lost!

 

[TomSawyer]

The top of the range LFD interconnect is the Diamond Viper II at £6,000. That's 12,000 ha'peths of tar, or about 20m of residential street.

 

[TrevC]

The top of the range LFD interconnect is the Diamond Viper II at £6,000. That's 12,000 ha'peths of tar, or about 20m of residential street.

Huge

I'm seriously thinking of starting a foo cable company. The thought of becoming rich legally on the backs of stupid people is very appealing.