Interconnect

[ellisdj]

Doesn't need to be blind I am going to listen to a system of top components using cheap cabling. The system should sound the accumulative of the excellent parts. Not held back by the cables. I will shut my eyes if it makes you feel better.

Then if swopping a cable or 2 I will say nothing about what they are and Electro will obviously hear no difference.

Or he will offer me hard cash to buy them when his system improves no end

BTW they are not for sale

 

[Electro]

Unfortunately I will not set foot in Essex under any circumstances, for sound sociological reasons.

It's the only way.

I'm sure I don't know what you mean *scratch_one-s_head* .

Some of us Essex boy's and girls are quite normal. But then maybe ..... *wink*

 

[davedotco]

Doesn't need to be blind I am going to listen to a system of top components using cheap cabling. The system should sound the accumulative of the excellent parts. Not held back by the cables. I will shut my eyes if it makes you feel better.

Then if swopping a cable or 2 I will say nothing about what they are and Electro will obviously hear no difference.

Or he will offer me hard cash to buy them when his system improves no end

BTW they are not for sale

Sighted testing is meaningles other than for a bit of fun and a get together of like minded enthusiasts.

Enjoy yourselves and have some fun, do tell us all about it, for entertainment value only, of course.

 

[Electro]

Doesn't need to be blind I am going to listen to a system of top components using cheap cabling. The system should sound the accumulative of the excellent parts. Not held back by the cables. I will shut my eyes if it makes you feel better.

Then if swopping a cable or 2 I will say nothing about what they are and Electro will obviously hear no difference.

Or he will offer me hard cash to buy them when his system improves no end

BTW they are not for sale

Sighted testing is meaningles other than for a bit of fun and a get together of like minded enthusiasts.

Enjoy yourselves and have some fun, do tell us all about it, for entertainment value only, of course.

It's only going to be a bit of fun and to listen to some good music, I am sure ellisdj will report his impressions to you all, it will be fantastic to meet someone who is passionate about music and HiFi, we are a rare breed. *yes3*

 

[ellisdj]

Doesn't need to be blind I am going to listen to a system of top components using cheap cabling. The system should sound the accumulative of the excellent parts. Not held back by the cables. I will shut my eyes if it makes you feel better.

Then if swopping a cable or 2 I will say nothing about what they are and Electro will obviously hear no difference.

Or he will offer me hard cash to buy them when his system improves no end

BTW they are not for sale

Sighted testing is meaningles other than for a bit of fun and a get together of like minded enthusiasts.

Enjoy yourselves and have some fun, do tell us all about it, for entertainment value only, of course.

Sorry if you wanted to buy speakers or anything you would always set up a blind test to do any listening. Come off it.
I know what's good and what's not.
I know what I like and what I don't. I will know the content exceptionally well so no shocks.

There is no need to do a blind test. If it sounds great with cheap cables I will say so. If it's the best sound I have ever heard I will say so.

If the cable change makes a difference then electro I am. Sure will day so.

This is a bit of fun everyone is sick of the arguing about time someone had some cahoonas to do this

 

[spiny norman]

a bit of fun and to listen to some good music

Why on earth would anyone do that when it's not scientifically verifiable? ;-)

 

[davedotco]

Doesn't need to be blind I am going to listen to a system of top components using cheap cabling. The system should sound the accumulative of the excellent parts. Not held back by the cables. I will shut my eyes if it makes you feel better.

Then if swopping a cable or 2 I will say nothing about what they are and Electro will obviously hear no difference.

Or he will offer me hard cash to buy them when his system improves no end

BTW they are not for sale

Sighted testing is meaningles other than for a bit of fun and a get together of like minded enthusiasts.

Enjoy yourselves and have some fun, do tell us all about it, for entertainment value only, of course.

Sorry if you wanted to buy speakers or anything you would always set up a blind test to do any listening. Come off it. I know what's good and what's not. I know what I like and what I don't. I will know the content exceptionally well so no shocks.

There is no need to do a blind test. If it sounds great with cheap cables I will say so. If it's the best sound I have ever heard I will say so.

If the cable change makes a difference then electro I am. Sure will day so.

This is a bit of fun everyone is sick of the arguing about time someone had some cahoonas to do this

the limitations of sighted tests in this kind of scenario, then there really is no discussion to be had.

I enjoy listening and tweeking systems as much as anyone, though for various reasons I do not indulge that much these days. But at least I have a reasonable grasp of the limitations of sighted tests and would not dream of drawing conclusions from them.

Have fun and enjoy...*drinks*

 

[ellisdj]

I can tell you now for a fact I won't be influenced by any of kit being a high end brand the surroundings or even the host (brown envelope aside)

I won't be doing any reading on his kit before hand, no idea of cost but I assume a lot but that's it. So can't have a preconceived idea.

I have listened to a few super high end systems £100k+ and was the same with them when the content was familiar.

It either sounds good or not - I think that is taste to a degree and with flaws in or the perfect presentation

You don't need to be blind folded for that you just need to listen to something you are familiar with and have already heard to a very high standard to have a reference to compare against.

 

[lindsayt]

Sighted testing is meaningles other than for a bit of fun and a get together of like minded enthusiasts.

Enjoy yourselves and have some fun, do tell us all about it, for entertainment value only, of course.

I disagree totally.

I'm sure the vast majority of people reading this chose their systems (or chose to keep them) on the basis of sighted tests.

Are you saying that their (and quite possibly your) tests were meaningless? Even though that's all that was used to decide what to buy and keep?

If someone has integrity I am quite happy to accept the results of their sighted tests. Even more so if they have similar tastes to me and a proven track record.

 

[davedotco]

I can tell you now for a fact I won't be influenced by any of kit being a high end brand the surroundings or even the host (brown envelope aside)

I won't be doing any reading on his kit before hand, no idea of cost but I assume a lot but that's it. So can't have a preconceived idea.

I have listened to a few super high end systems £100k+ and was the same with them when the content was familiar.

It either sounds good or not - I think that is taste to a degree and with flaws in or the perfect presentation

You don't need to be blind folded for that you just need to listen to something you are familiar with and have already heard to a very high standard to have a reference to compare against.

You really don't understand this stuff do you..!

For a while I thought you were just playing devil's advocate, but you're not, you really believe expectation bias, placebo effect etc doesn't apply to you, magnificent...

 

[drummerman]

I can tell you now for a fact I won't be influenced by any of kit being a high end brand the surroundings or even the host (brown envelope aside)

I won't be doing any reading on his kit before hand, no idea of cost but I assume a lot but that's it. So can't have a preconceived idea.

I have listened to a few super high end systems £100k+ and was the same with them when the content was familiar.

It either sounds good or not - I think that is taste to a degree and with flaws in or the perfect presentation

You don't need to be blind folded for that you just need to listen to something you are familiar with and have already heard to a very high standard to have a reference to compare against.

You really don't understand this stuff do you..!

For a while I thought you were just playing devil's advocate, but you're not, you really believe expectation bias, placebo effect etc doesn't apply to you, magnificent...

Now just how did we manage before you showed us we're all wrong ...

 

[lindsayt]

You really don't understand this stuff do you..!

For a while I thought you were just playing devil's advocate, but you're not, you really believe expectation bias, placebo effect etc doesn't apply to you, magnificent...

I'm prepared to believe in ellisdj's integrity. That he can relax during sighted bake-offs and let the sound from the systems wash over him. And that the systems will sound like what they sound like with the test tracks, regardless of their looks, price and reputation.

And that if it's a large difference he will report it as such. If it's a small one or no difference likewise.

 

[TomSawyer]

I think we should bear in mind that the listening will be done by two people: one who expects cables to make a difference and one that doesn't. There are four potential outcomes:

1. Ellis and Electro both hear a difference in which case there probably was;

2. Ellis and Electro neither hear a difference in which case their probably wasn't;

3. Ellis hears a difference but Electro doesn't in which case we've proved expectation bias; or

4. Electro hears a difference and Ellis doesn't in which case the answer's 42!

The one thing I bet is that the discussion is a lot more friendly than it is on here. I think really, in addition to a believer and an atheist they really need an agnostic!

 

[ellisdj]

Everyone has got this wrong, cross wires - no pun intended

I am going to listen to a system wired up with cheap cables to see if it can sound good, really good.
There is no need to do this blind there is nothing being tested. Electro is confident enough in the performance of his system to offer this up - good man
Whatever the outcome everyone needs to be mindful of the personal side of things we are not here to offend anyone.

This is why I said it doesn't matter to me what kit is being used because kit quality doesn't guarantee great sound. I believe you need to do a lot more than just buy this and plonk it down. I don't know what else electro has done regards isolation room acoustic etc. It doesn't matter the better these are it should make a difference easier to hear at the next stage.

Then only if electro is happy to I can take a few cables to swop and he can see if he heard a difference - by this I mean he can sit in the Hot seat but I will still be able to hear obviously.

Only after this will I tell him about the cables so it doesn't influence him anymore than necessary. Doing any more than this is too much and will take too long and I am.not fan of keep plugging and unplugging things this effects a test just as much

 

[andyjm]

One of the challenges of a thread like this is that the argument becomes polarised, either cables matter or they don't.

Just to be clear, from an engineering standpoint, of course cables matter.

A cable has to be properly specified and well made to perform its intended function. If you use mains cable for low level interconnects, don't be surprised if it introduces hum. If you use bell flex for speaker connections, don't be surprised if the speakers have lost their low level punch. The same is true of more specialised applications. Cat5 has that annoying twist in the conductors for a good reason, and Sky boxes are quite particular about the downlead used from the satellite dish if you want the box to work.

What doesn't matter, is replacing one perfectly good, well made and properly specified cable with another perfectly good, well made and properly specified cable.

Endless threads about the sonic differences of two equally good, equally specified cables, usually with improbable names thought up by some marketing wonk and with a price tag to match, are frankly a waste of everyone's time.

 

[davedotco]

I think we should bear in mind that the listening will be done by two people: one who expects cables to make a difference and one that doesn't. There are four potential outcomes:

1. Ellis and Electro both hear a difference in which case there probably was;

2. Ellis and Electro neither hear a difference in which case their probably wasn't;

3. Ellis hears a difference but Electro doesn't in which case we've proved expectation bias; or

4. Electro hears a difference and Ellis doesn't in which case the answer's 42!

The one thing I bet is that the discussion is a lot more friendly than it is on here. I think really, in addition to a believer and an atheist they really need an agnostic!

I'm afraid that real world testing simply does not work like that. Expectation bias works at such a deep level that it is totally impossible to ignore, this is well known and established science, you can read up on this if you wish.

When two (or more) listeners are involved the results become even more unreliable, the interaction of the 'group' skew the results even further from reality, it is not doubting anyones integrity or hearing, it is simply stating (in very broad terms) how the human brain behaves in such situations.

Regarding the tone of such arguments, it is very difficult to make a constructive argument when the other person does not understand even the basic principles of the subject. Pointing out this lack of understanding is often taken as a personel insult, where none is intended.

 

[radiorog]

Sighted testing is meaningles other than for a bit of fun and a get together of like minded enthusiasts.

Enjoy yourselves and have some fun, do tell us all about it, for entertainment value only, of course.

I disagree totally.

I'm sure the vast majority of people reading this chose their systems (or chose to keep them) on the basis of sighted tests.

Are you saying that their (and quite possibly your) tests were meaningless? Even though that's all that was used to decide what to buy and keep?

 

If someone has integrity I am quite happy to accept the results of their sighted tests. Even more so if they have similar tastes to me and a proven track record.

Great point. Can you answer this Dave?

 

[ellisdj]

I think your missing that 2 minutes reading a thread like this everyone understands it, everyone has understood it since day 1 - however in reality it's very difficult to put exacting testing standards into something like this with limited time and limited care for it. I am happy for you to do it yourself though for your own testing. Look at the. Lengths Harmon go to to test speakers quality that's too much for me.

So you and I will have to accept there is bias involved in whatever results come from this, I can live with that.

 

[davedotco]

I think your missing that 2 minutes reading a thread like this everyone understands it, everyone has understood it since day 1 - however in reality it's very difficult to put exacting testing standards into something like this with limited time and limited care for it. I am happy for you to do it yourself though for your own testing. Look at the. Lengths Harmon go to to test speakers quality that's too much for me.

So you and I will have to accept there is bias involved in whatever results come from this, I can live with that.

If you were simply carrying out such tests for your own amusement and seeing how you, and others, react to the comparisons being made, then I would have no issue at all with anything you say.

But you are not, these thread derives from the premise that some cables sound better than others, more specifically that there is a difference between compedently designed cables.

It is an attempt to prove/disprove this premise, but in this case the methodology is totally unsuited to the task. Determining whether there is, or is not, a perceivable difference between two interconnects is exactly the kind of test that the ABX method is designed to acheive.

Take a look at the explanation of ABX testing in the ABX thread that is a little further down the page.

 

[keeper of the quays]

I can tell you now for a fact I won't be influenced by any of kit being a high end brand the surroundings or even the host (brown envelope aside)

I won't be doing any reading on his kit before hand, no idea of cost but I assume a lot but that's it. So can't have a preconceived idea.

I have listened to a few super high end systems £100k+ and was the same with them when the content was familiar.

It either sounds good or not - I think that is taste to a degree and with flaws in or the perfect presentation

You don't need to be blind folded for that you just need to listen to something you are familiar with and have already heard to a very high standard to have a reference to compare against.

You really don't understand this stuff do you..!

For a while I thought you were just playing devil's advocate, but you're not, you really believe expectation bias, placebo effect etc doesn't apply to you, magnificent...

Now just how did we manage before you showed us we're all wrong ...

all I can say is the pots and pans my ex wife bought are still going strong! I had to tighten a handle but that's about it? So whatever you think about Dave? When it comes to pots and pans he is the man!!! His mate looked a bit shifty though? Lol..

 

[davedotco]

Sighted testing is meaningles other than for a bit of fun and a get together of like minded enthusiasts.

Enjoy yourselves and have some fun, do tell us all about it, for entertainment value only, of course.

I disagree totally.

I'm sure the vast majority of people reading this chose their systems (or chose to keep them) on the basis of sighted tests.

Are you saying that their (and quite possibly your) tests were meaningless? Even though that's all that was used to decide what to buy and keep?

If someone has integrity I am quite happy to accept the results of their sighted tests. Even more so if they have similar tastes to me and a proven track record.

Great point. Can you answer this Dave?

Listening and enjoying music on you hi-fi is fundamentally different, it invoves evaluating how a system works together, how well it meets your requirements for the reproduction of recorded music and how it interacts with you, the listener. Your ears and your brain are a fundamental part of this 'evaluation', how can they be otherwise?

This is not the same as determining whether a cable does or does not effect the sound. This is a single simple evaluation, is there a difference or is there not. When attempting evaluations of this type it is standard scientific method to only change one variable at a time and to make a judgement without knowing which of the items is under test on each occassion.

Not the same thing at all.

 

[andyjm]

I think we should bear in mind that the listening will be done by two people: one who expects cables to make a difference and one that doesn't. There are four potential outcomes:

1. Ellis and Electro both hear a difference in which case there probably was;

2. Ellis and Electro neither hear a difference in which case their probably wasn't;

3. Ellis hears a difference but Electro doesn't in which case we've proved expectation bias; or

4. Electro hears a difference and Ellis doesn't in which case the answer's 42!

The one thing I bet is that the discussion is a lot more friendly than it is on here. I think really, in addition to a believer and an atheist they really need an agnostic!

I'm afraid that real world testing simply does not work like that. Expectation bias works at such a deep level that it is totally impossible to ignore, this is well known and established science, you can read up on this if you wish.

When two (or more) listeners are involved the results become even more unreliable, the interaction of the 'group' skew the results even further from reality, it is not doubting anyones integrity or hearing, it is simply stating (in very broad terms) how the human brain behaves in such situations.

Regarding the tone of such arguments, it is very difficult to make a constructive argument when the other person does not understand even the basic principles of the subject. Pointing out this lack of understanding is often taken as a personel insult, where none is intended.

Just to reinforce Dave's point, in clinical trials, pharmaceutical companies employ 'double blind' testing - it was found that even if the patient had no idea if the drug was real or just placebo, if the clinician administering the drug knew, then the unconcious cues given to the patient were enough to skew the results of the trial.

 

[TomSawyer]

This is bonkers.

If we narrow the discussion down to just changing one cable (let's assume the interconnect between source and amp) on a given system and we change nothing else and play the sound file through it, the only way the ear can hear a difference that is entirely as a result of the cable change (in other words nothing to do with changes in humidity, air pressure, temperature, seating position, background noise, etc) is if the speakers move in a slightly different way to create a slightly different sound wave. In other words at some time during the track the frequency and/or the amplitude differs (again ready to be corrected because as an engineer I only did physics to A level).

For this to happen, the electrical signal going to the speaker must exhibit the same change in frequency and/or amplitude. Surely we can measure that with a data recorder across the amp output in each case and subtract one from the other to show any difference?

*Awaits explanation of why such an over-simplification is the reason I'm an engineer and not a physicist*

 

[ellisdj]

Sighted testing is meaningles other than for a bit of fun and a get together of like minded enthusiasts.

Enjoy yourselves and have some fun, do tell us all about it, for entertainment value only, of course.

I disagree totally.

I'm sure the vast majority of people reading this chose their systems (or chose to keep them) on the basis of sighted tests.

Are you saying that their (and quite possibly your) tests were meaningless? Even though that's all that was used to decide what to buy and keep?

If someone has integrity I am quite happy to accept the results of their sighted tests. Even more so if they have similar tastes to me and a proven track record.

Great point. Can you answer this Dave?

Listening and enjoying music on you hi-fi is fundamentally different, it invoves evaluating how a system works together, how well it meets your requirements for the reproduction of recorded music and how it interacts with you, the listener. Your ears and your brain are a fundamental part of this 'evaluation', how can they be otherwise?

This is not the same as determining whether a cable does or does not effect the sound. This is a single simple evaluation, is there a difference or is there not. When attempting evaluations of this type it is standard scientific method to only change one variable at a time and to make a judgement without knowing which of the items is under test on each occassion.

Not the same thing at all.

Even this is wrong.

Harmon say that to test anything in sound at all it needs to be in mono only - so its not how things work together its how things work in isolation - single speaker only

So any blind testing linked to by anyone in any thread so far unless it has been done with a single speaker (dont remember any seeing any) - under the extreme conditions Harmon use its fundamentally flawed.

So if anyone is about to link the same crap again dont bother its just as flawed as me going round someones house to listen.

So unless a test can be done under the conditions Harmon do - then you might as well not bother - you might as well just do as everyone else does just sit and listen, because even though you think you have proved something, you havent conclusively.

 

[davedotco]

This is bonkers.

If we narrow the discussion down to just changing one cable (let's assume the interconnect between source and amp) on a given system and we change nothing else and play the sound file through it, the only way the ear can hear a difference that is entirely as a result of the cable change (in other words nothing to do with changes in humidity, air pressure, temperature, seating position, background noise, etc) is if the speakers move in a slightly different way to create a slightly different sound wave. In other words at some time during the track the frequency and/or the amplitude differs (again ready to be corrected because as an engineer I only did physics to A level).

For this to happen, the electrical signal going to the speaker must exhibit the same change in frequency and/or amplitude. Surely we can measure that with a data recorder across the amp output in each case and subtract one from the other to show any difference?

*Awaits explanation of why such an over-simplification is the reason I'm an engineer and not a physicist*

Tom, such tests are carried out and for properly engineered cables, even the cheap ones I referenced above, then with respect to their audio performance there are no differences in the measurements, none.

Those who believe there is a difference will often say that the measuring equipment is not good enough or the wrong 'things' are being measured and insist on a listening test.

However when you carry out a sighted test, even though all the parameters you mention remain the same, you have changed another.

In this case the change is that you have introduced the 'knowledge' of which cable (in this instance) you are listening to. This affects what you 'hear' to such a large degree as to render the test useless for any practical purpose.