TrevC
Well-known member
lindsayt said:
With cables expectation bias is all there is, which is why they have silly names and look nice. If you test drove a BMW and then another BMW disguised as a Lada you would pick the one that wasn't disguised. If you drank identical beer from two bottles, one labelled Stella and one labelled Asda Farm stores you would prefer the Stella labelled one. Why drink lager anyway, there are some fabulous ales brewed in England.
BigH
Well-known member
lindsayt said:
With the cars could be lots of things, such as imagine, not just of the car but the brand, perormance etc.
Now beer, hmmm, one following the other could influence your taste, unless you completely cleared your palette even then in your mind if one is sweet and the next sour. Could be lots of things as well, mood, time of day etc. Personally I would not drink either. Try them the other way a round and see if theres a difference. Keep trying each one until you can't tell them apart then go to bed.
Re cables I think there is expectation bias sometimes, if say one cable is much more expensive then you would expect it to be better? If you don't know which cables are being tested then no expectation bias? Also by just doing a test you probably expect there to be a difference.
Electro
Well-known member
I am not so sure that expectation bias although very real is as powerful and invincible as stated.
When I first fitted very cheap ( Maplin 5m balanced cables £9.95 the pair ) cable between my pre and monoblocks I expected the sound quality to take a nose dive, but it didn't and it was very obvious within the first few seconds.
I suppose the many years of most things rarely living up to my expectation has taught me a valuable lesson.*yes3*
When I first fitted very cheap ( Maplin 5m balanced cables £9.95 the pair ) cable between my pre and monoblocks I expected the sound quality to take a nose dive, but it didn't and it was very obvious within the first few seconds.
I suppose the many years of most things rarely living up to my expectation has taught me a valuable lesson.*yes3*
Dave.co will be along to say the reason you heard a difference is because you changed the cable in sight of doing it - that is why you heard a difference so its purely expectation bias regardless of better or worse.
But if that difference is consistent i.e. every time I listen I hear the same thing and I like it who gives a toss - Shallow Hal effect.
At the end of the day audiphiles sit down to actually Listen to the music being played back and if it sounds good its an enjoyable experience, one the audiophile will repeat time again. So that is what the task at hand is for the audiphile.
People say Audiophiles listen to systems not music, | agree and disagree with that statement.
Its the Audiophiles job to get the overall system out of the way so all they hear is the music - sadly I feel this is seldom the case so the audiophile hears the shortcomings of the system overall and is accused of not listening to the music.
But if that difference is consistent i.e. every time I listen I hear the same thing and I like it who gives a toss - Shallow Hal effect.
At the end of the day audiphiles sit down to actually Listen to the music being played back and if it sounds good its an enjoyable experience, one the audiophile will repeat time again. So that is what the task at hand is for the audiphile.
People say Audiophiles listen to systems not music, | agree and disagree with that statement.
Its the Audiophiles job to get the overall system out of the way so all they hear is the music - sadly I feel this is seldom the case so the audiophile hears the shortcomings of the system overall and is accused of not listening to the music.
Forgive me Keeper, I know I can be hard work, but I genuinely can't get over the £6,000 cost of your interconnect. I note on another post that you use a Cambridge 540p phono stage which obviously needs a cable either side of it. I think my brain melted at that point - surely you don't have £12,000 of cables hanging off a £50 phono stage?
I've been very patient explaining how all this works but you both still willfully or perhaps deliberately missunderstand what is being said.
In audio, sighted comparisons are subject to expectation bias, there is absolutely nothing that you can do or think that will change that. Understanding that is the first step to really getting a handle on what does or does not matter in hi-fi, sadly, neither of you have the faintest idea what that means.
The argument in this thread comes about from (both) your promotion of your subjective opinions as undisputed fact and that you have been called on it. Just admit that you were wrong and move on.
We may then be able to have a serious discussion on the best ways to audition a system so that the budget is spent wisely and satisfaction and enjoyment is maximised.
You know, talk about something interesting...*unknw*
In audio, sighted comparisons are subject to expectation bias, there is absolutely nothing that you can do or think that will change that. Understanding that is the first step to really getting a handle on what does or does not matter in hi-fi, sadly, neither of you have the faintest idea what that means.
The argument in this thread comes about from (both) your promotion of your subjective opinions as undisputed fact and that you have been called on it. Just admit that you were wrong and move on.
We may then be able to have a serious discussion on the best ways to audition a system so that the budget is spent wisely and satisfaction and enjoyment is maximised.
You know, talk about something interesting...*unknw*
BigH
Well-known member
Dave.co - take a breath for starters and wind your neck in - if its too much trouble to write on this forum dont bother. If your patience is wearing thin again dont bother writing anything or reading, noone is asking for any information or any lessons from you in anything.
So again in the nicest possible way wind your neck right in. Your tone of writing is arrogant and whether your right or wrong or mean it to be I feel there is no need for it
Why dont you go back and read what I wrote - I said you would be back to say expectation bias is why Electro heard a difference between the cables - and guess what thats exactly what you did. My expectation bias was proved right on that one - that is a joke BTW
You cant seem to grasp most people dont give a hoot - if they like the sound of something consistently and even if there is any bias in the buying decision they dont care - there is in most purchases in life.
Your expectation of the average audio enthusiast to do severe testing before they buy anythig is simply ludicrous, even if its the scientifically correct way to do it or think about it. If to you its vitally important fair play - but if I make a recommendation to someone for something that has improved my system performance to me, then there is a good chance it will improve that persons system also or it is at least worth trying.
Improved Performance = Increased Enjoyment of time spent listening to it or watching it or whatever - That is What It Is All About!!
EDIT - I apologise if this has come across as rude also - buttons pushed when typing
So again in the nicest possible way wind your neck right in. Your tone of writing is arrogant and whether your right or wrong or mean it to be I feel there is no need for it
Why dont you go back and read what I wrote - I said you would be back to say expectation bias is why Electro heard a difference between the cables - and guess what thats exactly what you did. My expectation bias was proved right on that one - that is a joke BTW
You cant seem to grasp most people dont give a hoot - if they like the sound of something consistently and even if there is any bias in the buying decision they dont care - there is in most purchases in life.
Your expectation of the average audio enthusiast to do severe testing before they buy anythig is simply ludicrous, even if its the scientifically correct way to do it or think about it. If to you its vitally important fair play - but if I make a recommendation to someone for something that has improved my system performance to me, then there is a good chance it will improve that persons system also or it is at least worth trying.
Improved Performance = Increased Enjoyment of time spent listening to it or watching it or whatever - That is What It Is All About!!
EDIT - I apologise if this has come across as rude also - buttons pushed when typing
well? First off my esteemed friend the hifi guru gave them to me..he was a big wig in the hifi industry and got a lot of bits of kit to evaluate..he in fact gave me three sets of LFD interconnects..top of range, middle of range and cheap ones (£170 pair) he also gave me a set of LFD speaker cables too! I do have a 540p but yes my 640p with my Linn..im now getting near trev c territory...my friend uses a 640p as a back up with his SME turntable and koetsu cartridge..when his boutique valve phono stage needs a service..he says they are very good? This into 30k approx turntable, 5k cart 7k phono stage and 50k boutique Japanese valve amp...so? Looks like 640p pretty good! I won't mention his speakers...but they are 1930s made with modern single drivers from Germany handmade..i can never hope to emulate the sound..all I can say the feeling of the music is so intense it's a little frightening....theres nothing can compare and all of us here are no where near to that sound..my esteemed friend..wont have a cd in the house it's all vinyl or reel to reel...he is a dude..makes a horrible cup of tea though..really stewed! Lol...so in answer to your question my cables are over specified for my equipment! But they sound great and if I had a krell amp? Who knows what that sound would be..ribbon cables notwithstanding..TomSawyer said:
Ps your not hard work..to quote 'his mind is not for rent to any god or government ' I think you know this quote..is cool..you made short work of Trev c...brilliant! I think he realised you were having none of his nonsense and I think he gave up and scuttled away! Lol...bro you rock!keeper of the quays said:
keeper of the quays said:
Ah, I understand, I would probably also use £6k cables if someone gave them to me! But hang on a minute, doesn't that make them freebies, making you firmly on the side of freebies sound good? *biggrin*
TrevC
Well-known member
keeper of the quays said:
I realised the truth of that old expression "you can't fix stupid" which is why I'm no longer trying!
TrevC
Well-known member
BigH
Well-known member
TrevC said:
A bit harsh Trev! I never argued that an expensive cable was better than an inexpensive one, only that a properly made one was better than your coat hanger. In fact I didn't even argue that, I asked you to justify your assertion that a coat hanger was as good so that I could understand where you're coming from.
Now you're probably right that I'm a bit stupid but in the grand scheme of life I'm pretty well qualified and experienced so I can normally understand a technical argument explained properly. To quote Einstein, "if you can't explain it to a 6 year old, you don't understand it yourself" and whether, in your case, that's true or not that's how you come across, dismissing genuine requests for explanation or insight with put downs.
So stupid, probably, but not arrogant or socially impaired.
ah ok Trev..honourable withdraw then? Any chance of playing another tune on your penny flute? What about a review of your leak tuner? Or maybe a indepth review of your Waltham music centre? Lol...did you keep the same speakers? Or did you push the boat (oracle)out and go for some top notch akai ones? HahaTrevC said:
ellisdj said:
No ellis, it is not at all rude but it is nonsense. Once again in this thread you have tried to take me to task for things I have clearly not said or implied.
Where have I ever said that people should audition equipment (for their own use) in a blind, scientific or "severe" manner? In reality I have said exactly the oposite on several occasions, look at my comments in posts 128, 139 and 247 for example.
In 247 I clearly state that auditioning is best done sighted when choosing equipment for normal use, of course people do not 'give a hoot' whether their listening is 'scientifically correct', they want to know how well the system works for them with their music in their home, so how on earth can you make the comments in your post above?
TrevC
Well-known member
keeper of the quays said:
I have the Leak tuner, currently I'm using a Sony budget amp with remote, A Pioneer CD recorder, A Philips 850 mk II CD player, an LG bluray, B&W 601 speakers, a BK sub and an antimode. Freebie interconnects and blue foo ones that I was given, Speaker cables are 2 runs of 79 strand in parallel. The tuner is the best sounding one I've heard.
years ago I had a leak stereo twenty and the leak tuner was very good I remember? Believe it was mono! Funny thing is? My little t amp blows it out of the water! All that engineering all those valves...all that metal!!! And a tripath chip wins hands down...mad is the modern world!TrevC said:
kukulec
Well-known member
davedotco said:
Hi Dave.co I took offense to your comments and posted in a way that requires me to wind my own neck in at the same time.
Damn I get passionate about this hobby
radiorog
Well-known member
keeper of the quays said:
I agree, its nice to have someone here (tomsawyer) who has enough understanding to go toe to toe with people who think they are right, when I don't believe they are. I used to have a set of £30 interconnects that I thought would be an upgrade, but we're the opposite. In a £400 total system, I could really hear a difference that wasn't to my liking. They eventually went in the bin. Now, I am positive, that in a blind test I could tell the difference between those cables and others, that would be statistically significant. I'd guess I could tell probably 7/10 times, or more. And I won't be told otherwise. I'm stupid too, but not completely, and have been aware of expectation bias all my adult life (20+ years) and I believe it doesn't take much to be aware of this, and filter some of it out, that it what intelligence enables. Now, I am also aware that some people probably won't be able to do this.
Dave's answer to my question regarding what somebody said about choosing HiFi sighted, I feel doesn't satisfy me. Choosing a HiFi, be it an amp or speakers, sighted, I think most of us appreciate we can hear differences and make decisions on which is better. So even with expectation bias, the differences are big enough to be heard, and we can make a decision on which is best. So, with this basic principle, we can move it onto cables, yea, there is expectation bias, but sometimes the differences are still audible.
I do also realise from my experience of interconnects at under £100, they do sound very similar. And sometimes any differences we hear can be imagined, due to external experiences such as mood, temperature, air pressure, lighting, colour of the carpet, the list goes on and on.
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