Interconnect

[davedotco]

Sighted testing is meaningles other than for a bit of fun and a get together of like minded enthusiasts.

Enjoy yourselves and have some fun, do tell us all about it, for entertainment value only, of course.

I disagree totally.

I'm sure the vast majority of people reading this chose their systems (or chose to keep them) on the basis of sighted tests.

Are you saying that their (and quite possibly your) tests were meaningless? Even though that's all that was used to decide what to buy and keep?

If someone has integrity I am quite happy to accept the results of their sighted tests. Even more so if they have similar tastes to me and a proven track record.

Great point. Can you answer this Dave?

Listening and enjoying music on you hi-fi is fundamentally different, it invoves evaluating how a system works together, how well it meets your requirements for the reproduction of recorded music and how it interacts with you, the listener. Your ears and your brain are a fundamental part of this 'evaluation', how can they be otherwise?

This is not the same as determining whether a cable does or does not effect the sound. This is a single simple evaluation, is there a difference or is there not. When attempting evaluations of this type it is standard scientific method to only change one variable at a time and to make a judgement without knowing which of the items is under test on each occassion.

Not the same thing at all.

Even this is wrong.

Harmon say that to test anything in sound at all it needs to be in mono only - so its not how things work together its how things work in isolation - single speaker only

So any blind testing linked to by anyone in any thread so far unless it has been done with a single speaker (dont remember any seeing any) - under the extreme conditions Harmon use its fundamentally flawed.

So if anyone is about to link the same crap again dont bother its just as flawed as me going round someones house to listen.

So unless a test can be done under the conditions Harmon do - then you might as well not bother - you might as well just do as everyone else does just sit and listen, because even though you think you have proved something, you havent conclusively.

Your understanding is at fault. The Harman engineering department is one of the most sophisticated in the world of hi-fi. It is used to test individual components and to reference what is heard to what is measured, they do not and will not make any attempt to evaluate a system with respect to 'enjoyment' or 'musicality'.

They also 'train' their listeners to detect differences and to evaluate their products in terms of 'improvements' and yes they do much of their listening in mono. Their tests are carried out using techniques that are scientifically correct and give results that are consistent and repeatable.

About as far from an informal sighted test as it is possible to get. Totally irrelevant in this context.

 

[MajorFubar]

What doesn't matter, is replacing one perfectly good, well made and properly specified cable with another perfectly good, well made and properly specified cable. 

Endless threads about the sonic differences of two equally good, equally specified cables, usually with improbable names thought up by some marketing wonk and with a price tag to match, are frankly a waste of everyone's time.

Perfectly sums it up IMO. If they won't grasp that there's nothing to be gained beyond what can be attained from a good well-specified cable (which can be bought quite cheaply), they're a fair target for both having their wallet raped and public ridicule IMO. Now that might sound harsh, but I'm also a hifi enthusiast same as they are, and I'm fed up of the public image of my hobby being tainted by people with these crackpot beliefs, because it tars me with the same brush as well.

 

[chebby]

Your understanding is at fault. The Harman engineering department is one of the most sophisticated in the world of hi-fi. It is used to test individual components and to reference what is heard to what is measured, they do not and will not make any attempt to evaluate a system with respect to 'enjoyment' or 'musicality'.

They also 'train' their listeners to detect differences and to evaluate their products in terms of 'improvements' and yes they do much of their listening in mono. Their tests are carried out using techniques that are scientifically correct and give results that are consistent and repeatable.

Harman Kardon 'How To Listen' downloads ...

http://harmanhowtolisten.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/welcome-to-how-to-listen.html

 

[Thompsonuxb]

One of the challenges of a thread like this is that the argument becomes polarised, either cables matter or they don't.

Just to be clear, from an engineering standpoint, of course cables matter.

A cable has to be properly specified and well made to perform its intended function. If you use mains cable for low level interconnects, don't be surprised if it introduces hum.  If you use bell flex for speaker connections, don't be surprised if the speakers have lost their low level punch.  The same is true of more specialised applications.  Cat5 has that annoying twist in the conductors for a good reason, and Sky boxes are quite particular about the downlead used from the satellite dish if you want the box to work.

What doesn't matter, is replacing one perfectly good, well made and properly specified cable with another perfectly good, well made and properly specified cable. 

Endless threads about the sonic differences of two equally good, equally specified cables, usually with improbable names thought up by some marketing wonk and with a price tag to match, are frankly a waste of everyone's time.

I wasn't going to say anything but this.....is a total contradiction.

The opening is correct cables either matter or they don't.

That's it!

Terms like 'properly specified' 'equally good' and 'equally specified' have no place in this argument it's a disclaimer.....a nonesense. (I've noted the subtle change in language used in these threads now, compared to a year or so ago)

Either cables make a difference or they don't. You correctly give applications were cabling matters, consider.

Fact is Chord or QED for example make properly specified cables that 'differ'.

If nothing else this highlights the argument is lost......

Anyway just saying....

 

[ellisdj]

Sighted testing is meaningles other than for a bit of fun and a get together of like minded enthusiasts.

Enjoy yourselves and have some fun, do tell us all about it, for entertainment value only, of course.

I disagree totally.

I'm sure the vast majority of people reading this chose their systems (or chose to keep them) on the basis of sighted tests.

Are you saying that their (and quite possibly your) tests were meaningless? Even though that's all that was used to decide what to buy and keep?

If someone has integrity I am quite happy to accept the results of their sighted tests. Even more so if they have similar tastes to me and a proven track record.

Great point. Can you answer this Dave?

Listening and enjoying music on you hi-fi is fundamentally different, it invoves evaluating how a system works together, how well it meets your requirements for the reproduction of recorded music and how it interacts with you, the listener. Your ears and your brain are a fundamental part of this 'evaluation', how can they be otherwise?

This is not the same as determining whether a cable does or does not effect the sound. This is a single simple evaluation, is there a difference or is there not. When attempting evaluations of this type it is standard scientific method to only change one variable at a time and to make a judgement without knowing which of the items is under test on each occassion.

Not the same thing at all.

Even this is wrong.

Harmon say that to test anything in sound at all it needs to be in mono only - so its not how things work together its how things work in isolation - single speaker only

So any blind testing linked to by anyone in any thread so far unless it has been done with a single speaker (dont remember any seeing any) - under the extreme conditions Harmon use its fundamentally flawed.

So if anyone is about to link the same crap again dont bother its just as flawed as me going round someones house to listen.

So unless a test can be done under the conditions Harmon do - then you might as well not bother - you might as well just do as everyone else does just sit and listen, because even though you think you have proved something, you havent conclusively.

Your understanding is at fault. The Harman engineering department is one of the most sophisticated in the world of hi-fi. It is used to test individual components and to reference what is heard to what is measured, they do not and will not make any attempt to evaluate a system with respect to 'enjoyment' or 'musicality'.

They also 'train' their listeners to detect differences and to evaluate their products in terms of 'improvements' and yes they do much of their listening in mono. Their tests are carried out using techniques that are scientifically correct and give results that are consistent and repeatable.

About as far from an informal sighted test as it is possible to get. Totally irrelevant in this context.

Thats exactly what I said - how is my understanding wrong?

 

[radiorog]

Sighted testing is meaningles other than for a bit of fun and a get together of like minded enthusiasts.

Enjoy yourselves and have some fun, do tell us all about it, for entertainment value only, of course.

I disagree totally.

I'm sure the vast majority of people reading this chose their systems (or chose to keep them) on the basis of sighted tests.

Are you saying that their (and quite possibly your) tests were meaningless? Even though that's all that was used to decide what to buy and keep?

 

If someone has integrity I am quite happy to accept the results of their sighted tests. Even more so if they have similar tastes to me and a proven track record.

Great point. Can you answer this Dave?

Listening and enjoying music on you hi-fi is fundamentally different, it invoves evaluating how a system works together, how well it meets your requirements for the reproduction of recorded music and how it interacts with you, the listener. Your ears and your brain are a fundamental part of this 'evaluation', how can they be otherwise?

This is not the same as determining whether a cable does or does not effect the sound. This is a single simple evaluation, is there a difference or is there not. When attempting evaluations of this type it is standard scientific method  to only change one variable at a time and to make a judgement without knowing which of the items is under test on each occassion.

Not the same thing at all.

I feel thats a slightly tangented answer, but you are right in that one variabke should be changed at a time. But, people choosing hifi will more often than not I am sure, swap one item at a time, because they kmow they need to compare one thing with another
So the argument still stands, in that are all these hifi choices mafe without blindfolds, valid? Is the person buying his/her devialet correct in thininkg it is better than an entry level seperate? Lets says 30% of people actually do make the correct choice, out of all the possible wrong choices, is statistically significant. And therefore, any argument about having to be blindtested is blown out of the water.

 

[keeper of the quays]

Blimey this thread has become tedious! Why is everyone so pedantic? All views here are subjective..its a good test two hifi buffs listening to same kit and seeing if cables make a difference or not! I'm cool with it...as both forum members seem nice guys..no one is going to evaluate their equipment according to some scientific test..or a double blind test? To buy a pair of speakers? It's absurd...its a interesting point and worthy of it's own thread..we all need to look at what we are buying..then listen to it...then decide...or rely on a review or two? Nowt wrong with that...our expectation bias also comes into the equation..but everything we do re our hifi is entirely subjective..it can be nothing else..its our ears That hear..not someone else's hearing! Even though Dave said the test has no validity due to it's lack of scientific rigour? He then said have a good time..so? It's his subjective view..i agree it's a bit of a needle in as much as trying to throw a damp squib on your evening of studious listening! I'm sure that wasn't his intention..can we lighten up a bit..it's getting needlessly heavy..

 

[davedotco]

Ellis

The Harman is a methodology for examining and quantifying how changes in design affect the sound quality. The whole process is controlled technique that they use, it involves careful level matching and computer control to make sure no one knows precisely what is being listened to.

It is a tool where listening and measurement are combined to make an evaluation on the effectiveness of specific changes, it is precise and very controlled. It is not a method used to evaluate the 'quality' of a system or even a component in hi-fi terms. Very different to what enthusiasts do when evaluating and choosing a system for themselves.

RadioRog

The big difference is when you are choosing a system for yourself, you are involved, or more precisely your ear/brain is involved. We know that, in careful, blind tests the differences between (say) amps or dacs are minimal but the way the various components react in a system is pretty different.

Listening to systems blind would be helpful but because of the interaction between system and listener it is not all that important. There are more things that go into choosing a system than pure sound quality, how the system 'suits' the requirements of the listener, how the system 'behaves' when used even how the system 'sets up' and looks, all have an effect.

Keeper

You have answered your own question and don't even realise...!

No one (well not me) is suggesting for one moment that is necessary to conduct scientific blind test when choosing equipment for your own use. In reality you listen, you interact and you choose, maybe taking other factors into accound such as reviews or looks, so long as you are happy with your choice then it is most likely to be a successful purchase.

But this is a totally different exercise that the 'test' generated by this thread, which is the proposition that, changing the interconnects for a 'better' set will affect the sound quality. For this proposition to be 'proved' then the test needs to be indisputable or at the very least free of known biases. A simple sighted test of the cables concerned does not come close to meeting those criteria.

 

[chebby]

Ellis

The Harman is a methodology for examining and quantifying how changes in design affect the sound quality. The whole process is controlled technique that they use, it involves careful level matching and computer control to make sure no one knows precisely what is being listened to.

It is a tool where listening and measurement are combined to make an evaluation on the effectiveness of specific changes, it is precise and very controlled. It is not a method used to evaluate the 'quality' of a system or even a component in hi-fi terms. Very different to what enthusiasts do when evaluating and choosing a system for themselves.

I posted download links for it earlier but I guess everyone is too busy hurling stuff at each other to actually try it out. Again ...

http://harmanhowtolisten.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/welcome-to-how-to-listen.html

 

[andyjm]

This is bonkers.

If we narrow the discussion down to just changing one cable (let's assume the interconnect between source and amp) on a given system and we change nothing else and play the sound file through it, the only way the ear can hear a difference that is entirely as a result of the cable change (in other words nothing to do with changes in humidity, air pressure, temperature, seating position, background noise, etc) is if the speakers move in a slightly different way to create a slightly different sound wave. In other words at some time during the track the frequency and/or the amplitude differs (again ready to be corrected because as an engineer I only did physics to A level).

For this to happen, the electrical signal going to the speaker must exhibit the same change in frequency and/or amplitude. Surely we can measure that with a data recorder across the amp output in each case and subtract one from the other to show any difference?

*Awaits explanation of why such an over-simplification is the reason I'm an engineer and not a physicist*

Tom

You are a smart man. Google 'audiodiffmaker' - a clever bit of software that time and amplitude aligns a 'before change' and 'after change' recording (via a WAV file) and produces a difference file.

Any difference made by changing an interconnect (or any other component come to that) is apparent in the difference file. No change, and the difference file is silent.

One may well ask why such a clear and simple way of showing the difference made by changing one brand of interconnect for another isn't used by the manufacturers in their advertising, or by magazines when performing system tests, unless.........

 

[keeper of the quays]

Ellis

The Harman is a methodology for examining and quantifying how changes in design affect the sound quality. The whole process is controlled technique that they use, it involves careful level matching and computer control to make sure no one knows precisely what is being listened to.

It is a tool where listening and measurement are combined to make an evaluation on the effectiveness of specific changes, it is precise and very controlled. It is not a method used to evaluate the 'quality' of a system or even a component in hi-fi terms. Very different to what enthusiasts do when evaluating and choosing a system for themselves.

RadioRog

The big difference is when you are choosing a system for yourself, you are involved, or more precisely your ear/brain is involved. We know that, in careful, blind tests the differences between (say) amps or dacs are minimal but the way the various components react in a system is pretty different.

Listening to systems blind would be helpful but because of the interaction between system and listener it is not all that important. There are more things that go into choosing a system than pure sound quality, how the system 'suits' the requirements of the listener, how the system 'behaves' when used even how the system 'sets up' and looks, all have an effect.

Keeper

You have answered your own question and don't even realise...!

No one (well not me) is suggesting for one moment that is necessary to conduct scientific blind test when choosing equipment for your own use. In reality you listen, you interact and you choose, maybe taking other factors into accound such as reviews or looks, so long as you are happy with your choice then it is most likely to be a successful purchase.

But this is a totally different exercise that the 'test' generated by this thread, which is the proposition that, changing the interconnects for a 'better' set will affect the sound quality. For this proposition to be 'proved' then the test needs to be indisputable or at the very least free of known biases. A simple sighted test of the cables concerned does not come close to meeting those criteria.

I was under the impression that the 'test' was a informal one..where two people listen to a wide range hi fi system...and then too see if interconnects make a difference or not? It sounds good to me!it's not my kit..it makes no difference to me..but I hope the outcome will justify my spluttering on interconnects...

 

[davedotco]

I was under the impression that the 'test' was a informal one..where two people listen to a wide range hi fi system...and then too see if interconnects make a difference or not? It sounds good to me!it's not my kit..it makes no difference to me..but I hope the outcome will justify my spluttering on interconnects...

This is exactly the point you seem unable to 'get'.

Two people listening informally in sighted tests will not tell you anything meaningful, that is the point. Expectation bias caused by knowing which interconnect is being played will overwhelm any possible difference between the cables. The effect of 'seeing' is simply far too strong and why such tests need to be done blind if they are to have any meaning.

To give you an indication just how strong this effect is, take a look at this short video,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0

 

[Electro]

The first hurdle to get over is to see if ellisdj thinks that my system sounds ok with the good quality but cheap cables I use .

If he agrees that it sounds ok then he can pick a cable to change and see if he can hear any difference an then go from there.

I must add that I was an avid cable believer up until I bough my new EC 4.8 pre amp and AW180 monoblocks when circumstances forced me to use temporary cheap cables and the penny dropped.

The rest is history as are the expensive cables !

I guess that makes me a ex cable believer which is probably the worst type.*biggrin*

 

[keeper of the quays]

I was under the impression that the 'test' was a informal one..where two people listen to a wide range hi fi system...and then too see if interconnects make a difference or not? It sounds good to me!it's not my kit..it makes no difference to me..but I hope the outcome will justify my spluttering on interconnects...

This is exactly the point you seem unable to 'get'.

Two people listening informally in sighted tests will not tell you anything meaningful, that is the point. Expectation bias caused by knowing which interconnect is being played will overwhelm any possible difference between the cables. The effect of 'seeing' is simply far too strong and why such tests need to be done blind if they are to have any meaning.

To give you an indication just how strong this effect is, take a look at this short video, 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0

your like a worn out record! Lol..point I'm making is it doesn't matter..your view, my view...you can wave your science banner, I can wave my hair shirt! All they gonna do is listen to hifi and consider some interconnects? I'm not sure why your banging on so much..they are not listening..it makes no difference? I'm going to look at some of these links..as I have a interest but regardless of any conclusion I draw? My ears tell me truth...and if that truth is mixed up with expectation bias, how the thing looks and how I'm feeling on that day? Still doesn't alter the fact it's the truth to me...you have your truth..i have mine..arent the others allowed their truth too?

 

[davedotco]

I was under the impression that the 'test' was a informal one..where two people listen to a wide range hi fi system...and then too see if interconnects make a difference or not? It sounds good to me!it's not my kit..it makes no difference to me..but I hope the outcome will justify my spluttering on interconnects...

This is exactly the point you seem unable to 'get'.

Two people listening informally in sighted tests will not tell you anything meaningful, that is the point. Expectation bias caused by knowing which interconnect is being played will overwhelm any possible difference between the cables. The effect of 'seeing' is simply far too strong and why such tests need to be done blind if they are to have any meaning.

To give you an indication just how strong this effect is, take a look at this short video,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0

your like a worn out record! Lol..point I'm making is it doesn't matter..your view, my view...you can wave your science banner, I can wave my hair shirt! All they gonna do is listen to hifi and consider some interconnects? I'm not sure why your banging on so much..they are not listening..it makes no difference? I'm going to look at some of these links..as I have a interest but regardless of any conclusion I draw? My ears tell me truth...and if that truth is mixed up with expectation bias, how the thing looks and how I'm feeling on that day? Still doesn't alter the fact it's the truth to me...you have your truth..i have mine..arent the others allowed their truth too?

Of course they are are, which is why these kinds of 'bake offs' can be great fun.

What they are not are 'universal truths' or 'facts' as we usually call them. Ellis stated categorically that his 'better' cables improved the sound over regular cables and was called on it.

He may and probably does totally believe that this is the case (no problems with that) but to turn that opinion into a fact that applies universally, requires proof, which the planned testing will not supply.

Did you check out the video on the McGurk effect? Give it a go if tou have not seen it before.

 

[ellisdj]

They wasn't normal cables they was very good ones my current ones are what I would call special - there is a difference BTW

 

[ellisdj]

They wasn't normal cables they was very good ones my current ones are what I would call special - there is a difference BTW

 

[ellisdj]

They wasn't normal cables they was very good ones my current ones are what I would call special - there is a difference BTW

 

[ellisdj]

They wasn't normal cables they was very good ones my current ones are what I would call special - there is a difference BTW

 

[ellisdj]

Just on case you didn't get it the first time lol

 

[davedotco]

They wasn't normal cables they was very good ones my current ones are what I would call special - there is a difference BTW

Stating opinion as fact...*stop*

If you are going to make statements like these, you need to prove them.

Otherwise you just get threads like this...*dash1*

Nice try though...*biggrin*

 

[drummerman]

A fact;

Tellurium's Black interconnect 'sounds' different because it has a miniature 10kohm resistor soldered between signal and return at the destination end.

 

[davedotco]

A fact;

Tellurium's Black interconnect 'sounds' different because it has a miniature 10kohm resistor soldered between signal and return at the destination end.

Various VDH cables use carbon as the conductor, very resistive.

To my ears (and many others) they sound over smooth and rolled off. Deliberately different.

But then they measure differently anyway.

 

[lindsayt]

There's expectation bias with car brands. If I test drive a Merc followed bt a BMW and prefer one over the other, was that because of expectation bias? Or was it because I prefered driving one car over the other?

There's expectation bias with beer. If I try a Stella followed by a Gambrinus (at the same temperature) and prefer the taste of one of them, would that be because of expectation bias? Or was it because one beer tasted better to me?

If I try 2 different cables and prefer one over the other, is that really necessarily because of expectation bias? I don't think so.

 

[keeper of the quays]

There's expectation bias with car brands. If I test drive a Merc followed bt a BMW and prefer one over the other, was that because of expectation bias? Or was it because I prefered driving one car over the other?

There's expectation bias with beer. If I try a Stella followed by a Gambrinus (at the same temperature) and prefer the taste of one of them, would that be because of expectation bias? Or was it because one beer tasted better to me?

If I try 2 different cables and prefer one over the other, is that really necessarily because of expectation bias? I don't think so.

 

after a few beers they all taste the same! Re expectation bias..i bought some tinned cheese from a market! Tinned? Processed? From a market? My expectation was low..50p? Just got lower..so I got my gluten free crackers ready..and opened tin..it looked bit iffy...so I put some on my cracker..and it wasn't too bad..like a thick version of hamburger cheese slice! So I was wrong..my expectations were false..mind you it's no Pont Leveque...but passable...