Interconnect

[BigH]

Perspective.

it is all about perspective. We all know that an analogue music signal is alternating current but in the spectrum of used electronic frequencies it is practically DC. This allows us to use Ohms Law and other simple equations derived for the use in direct current circuits to calculate wattage and current with minimal error.

It is important because many of the (scientific) effects used by cable manufacturers to promote their products are only really important at frequencies orders of magnitude higher than audio.

RF issues, surface effect, grain structure etc are all real but of minimal effect at audio frequencies, for example, RFI interference has such a tiny effect on interconnects that companies like Nordost, XLO and DNM routinely make and sell cables that are entirely unshielded.

In reality cables can and are designed differently but unless they are deliberately engineered to sound different by measurably altering their electrical characteristics they will sound pretty much the same.

Subjectivists will tell you to trust your ears as differences between cables are easy to hear, and yes, most of us have heard these differences. However these are sighted tests only, when such tests are carried out blind, the differences effectively disappear.

There is plenty of evidence of this if you care to look and very little to show that the differences can be reliably heard. Subjectivists will point out that such test conditions are compromised, different system, different room, stress on the listener etc, etc, such that the differences become harder to hear.

That is the argument, you decide for yourself which side you are on.

re your point about subjective observation..that we can hear a difference between cables/interconnects? You then ask us to accept your premise that on blind testing? That no difference could be heard? Sorry I don't accept your premise..Ps you present your premise as if it's a fact? It isn't! Then ask to make up our own minds? Based on what? Spurious facts? When I write my drivel I always try to say 'in my opinion' Or 'in my view' makes me sound less full of bluster! Less 'know all' I'm am subjective..i listen with my ears..in my view people with high quality equipment who use cheap cables /interconnects are foolish...

Actually there is quite a lot of evidence to support what Dave has said, maybe he should have added in his experience as he has done such tests. So its not just his view or opinion. You also state your opinion as fact?

A lot of these big fat cables are for show, appeal to the american audiophile market, look my cables are bigger than yours.

I certainly hope I don't state my opinions as facts! I usually preface with in my opinion or in my view..i certainly don't offer a premise as a given? Thus supporting a argument..this type of device is used a lot on forums...

Yes you do, you better look back at some comments about changing cables. Here is one "Listen to my kit..then ill remove my lfd top of range two inch thick interconnects between power amp and pre amp..then ill put my vdh the name interconnects between said amp and pre? And you listen..if the difference isnt night and day? The name interconnect is a good one too! Then im a dutchman!" This one is even better "so my post is aimed at the oafs who think all cables sound the same..it bloody not the case!!!!"

Hmmm does not sound like just an opinion to me. Calling people oafs does not really help your case and just inflames these sort of debates.

it's called a sense of humour..im sorry you appear not to have one? However you stick with cooker cable! Or coat hangers or freebie interconnects/cables..that is fine...but don't expect me to take anything you say seriously.

So your facts are a joke, yes very funny. And where did I ever say use cooker cable and coat hangers?

 

[chebby]

I've only been using the forum for about a week and so far a discussion about the merits of LPs vs CDs and one about interconnects

Yep, progressing beyond the debates of the early 1980s is waaaay outside most of the forum member's comfort zone.

 

[davedotco]

I've only been using the forum for about a week and so far a discussion about the merits of LPs vs CDs and one about interconnects had resulted in quite bitter exchanges. It seems quite a hostile place for people with a shared interest.

Anyway, the more I think about it, the more I'm keen to do some testing. My thinking is to rig a Denon f100 CD player up to an ADL GT40 and then in turn via USB to a laptop running Audacity. If I place it on my bench, next to the welding set, which can be used to generate some RFI, I can record the CD noise floor via three RCA cables: a home made bell-wire one, a freebie that came with the Denon originally and a £40 Chord one that came in a bundle with a streamer and amp. Both the sound files and the wave forms can then be checked for differences.

i have a mains conditioner that was actually designed for telephone exchanges rather than hifi but it might be an idea to plug the CD and the ADC and repeat.

Assuming that this is the kind of thing that would be of interest on here I'll post the results. IIRC, someone said earlier, I need to decide which side I'm on. I'm not on any side, just genuinely interested in finding things out.

I nor sure whether you are being entirely serious, but many comparisons, not dissimilar but more realistic, have been carried out and little if any effect has been reliably detected.

Yes cables can make a difference but when they do it is usually for solid scientific reasons that can be measured and explained. There is no noticeable difference between competently constructed interconnects as any number of blind tests will show, the evidence is pretty conclusive.

However it is also the case that listeners will hear differences in sighted tests, these differences are clear and unargueable. The real debate these days is why these, so obvious, differences become impossible to hear in controlled conditions.

One view is simply that in sighted tests, psycoacoustic issues such as placebo effect/expectation bias are present and that these effects are powerful enough to cause the differences that are heard. When the sight clues are removed, ie in blind tests, the differences dissappear too.

An alternate view is that blind testing is flawed, the system is not good enough, the room different, too stressful, etc, etc.

You decide which is correct in your own way, the best advice I can give is you ever have the opportunity to take part in an organised blind testing session, do so.

 

[davedotco]

I'm sorry I listen with my ears and don't rely on graphs and measurements..perhaps a bit less patronising might be a idea..and yet again your purporting a myth! A substantial body of experimental evidence!! That makes it a truth? All reviewers are charlatans..and you and a couple of other forum members are going to save us from our own pitiful ignorance? Thanks...ill just get shot of all my interconnects,cables and replace them with fuse wire..coat hangers..cooker cable!..hang on! Whilst I'm at it..do you think I should dump my equipment too? Maybe a Goodman's mini system? I'm sure some geuius has written a paper that all hifi sounds the same and us audiofools are deceived by expectation bias?

[/quote]

That's good, very good.

And to think for a few moments I really thought that you were being serious.

That post is ridiculous funny on so many levels I think it should be recommended for a "Thompson".

 

[keeper of the quays]

I'm sorry I listen with my ears and don't rely on graphs and measurements..perhaps a bit less patronising might be a idea..and yet again your purporting a myth! A substantial body of experimental evidence!! That makes it a truth? All reviewers are charlatans..and you and a couple of other forum members are going to save us from our own pitiful ignorance? Thanks...ill just get shot of all my interconnects,cables and replace them with fuse wire..coat hangers..cooker cable!..hang on! Whilst I'm at it..do you think I should dump my equipment too? Maybe a Goodman's mini system? I'm sure some geuius has written a paper that all hifi sounds the same and us audiofools are deceived by expectation bias?

That's good, very good.

And to think for a few moments I really thought that you were being serious.

That post is ridiculous funny on so many levels I think it should be recommended for a "Thompson".

 
[/quote]thank you, I did write with more levity than brevity..after all it's only hifi..nothing really important...now sausages? There's a subject worthy of strong views!

 

[drummerman]

Have I missed anything in the last two days?

 

[keeper of the quays]

Have I missed anything in the last two days? 

prince died..it rained! I went to the shops..decorated a room..dulux is good paint!

 

[lindsayt]

I thought you had to have a ring i.e to and from the board - then could have a spurs off the ring?

I am not an electrician so forgive a slight error there if it is one - its also semi irrelevant - but I do know how to get a system to sound Really Good - so whatever else you think I say is wrong - trust me that one is 100% right

That is a bold statement to make. Especially from someone running MA PL100 speakers.

I'd have thought that the best way to get a system sounding really good is to not use those horrible MA PL100 speakers?

I think it'd be interesting to compare your system, with those MA speakers that I really don't like, with all your attention to detail: cables, mains conditioning, acoustic panels. Against a system with speakers that I do like (doesn't have to be one of my own systems) with freebie cables, no mains conditioning, book-case type furniture.

Based on my experiences so far, I'd be willing to bet on which one would be the better sounding system. But you never know, you might have been able to weave some magic with those little speakers of yours...

 

[Thompsonuxb]

I'm sorry I listen with my ears and don't rely on graphs and measurements..perhaps a bit less patronising might be a idea..and yet again your purporting a myth! A substantial body of experimental evidence!! That makes it a truth? All reviewers are charlatans..and you and a couple of other forum members are going to save us from our own pitiful ignorance? Thanks...ill just get shot of all my interconnects,cables and replace them with fuse wire..coat hangers..cooker cable!..hang on! Whilst I'm at it..do you think I should dump my equipment too? Maybe a Goodman's mini system? I'm sure some geuius has written a paper that all hifi sounds the same and us audiofools are deceived by expectation bias?

That's good, very good.

And to think for a few moments I really thought that you were being serious.

That post is ridiculous funny on so many levels I think it should be recommended for a "Thompson".

 
[/quote]

Why are you calling my name Dave?

Although I will say the subtle change in language in this thread, especially in your big splurge is interesting .......

 

[TomSawyer]

I nor sure whether you are being entirely serious, but many comparisons, not dissimilar but more realistic, have been carried out and little if any effect has been reliably detected.

Yes cables can make a difference but when they do it is usually for solid scientific reasons that can be measured and explained. There is no noticeable difference between competently constructed interconnects as any number of blind tests will show, the evidence is pretty conclusive.

Thanks for the reply Dave, I am serious. Opinion on here ranges from it doesn't matter what you use to connect boxes (coat hanger mentioned) through to interconnects make a big difference. Both sides seem entirely entrenched with all of the reasons why the evidence offered by the other is flawed already rehearsed (presumably on previous threads). So what do you do, you look for evidence you can believe yourself and there either will or won't be a difference in the noise floor. Either way, I've learned something and had a mess about in the garage to boot.

Just deciding who you believe when half think one thing and the other half think the other feels more like religion than science - no offence meant, but that's not my chosen path to enlightenment.

 

[davedotco]

I'm sorry I listen with my ears and don't rely on graphs and measurements..perhaps a bit less patronising might be a idea..and yet again your purporting a myth! A substantial body of experimental evidence!! That makes it a truth? All reviewers are charlatans..and you and a couple of other forum members are going to save us from our own pitiful ignorance? Thanks...ill just get shot of all my interconnects,cables and replace them with fuse wire..coat hangers..cooker cable!..hang on! Whilst I'm at it..do you think I should dump my equipment too? Maybe a Goodman's mini system? I'm sure some geuius has written a paper that all hifi sounds the same and us audiofools are deceived by expectation bias?

That's good, very good.

And to think for a few moments I really thought that you were being serious.

That post is ridiculous funny on so many levels I think it should be recommended for a "Thompson".

Why are you calling my name Dave?

Although I will say the subtle change in language in this thread, especially in your big splurge is interesting .......

[/quote]

Not really calling you, just referencing a mythical award of my own invention, named in your honour.

BTW. Pleased to see that you noticed the change in language and, I hope, style in my posts. I am working hard at this, it has been evolving over some time.

 

[lindsayt]

Ignore EllisDJ, he has no clue about anything.

Oi! Less of the insulting ad hominem. Please!

 

[keeper of the quays]

Perspective.

it is all about perspective. We all know that an analogue music signal is alternating current but in the spectrum of used electronic frequencies it is practically DC. This allows us to use Ohms Law and other simple equations derived for the use in direct current circuits to calculate wattage and current with minimal error.

It is important because many of the (scientific) effects used by cable manufacturers to promote their products are only really important at frequencies orders of magnitude higher than audio.

RF issues, surface effect, grain structure etc are all real but of minimal effect at audio frequencies, for example, RFI interference has such a tiny effect on interconnects that companies like Nordost, XLO and DNM routinely make and sell cables that are entirely unshielded.

In reality cables can and are designed differently but unless they are deliberately engineered to sound different by measurably altering their electrical characteristics they will sound pretty much the same.

Subjectivists will tell you to trust your ears as differences between cables are easy to hear, and yes, most of us have heard these differences. However these are sighted tests only, when such tests are carried out blind, the differences effectively disappear.

There is plenty of evidence of this if you care to look and very little to show that the differences can be reliably heard. Subjectivists will point out that such test conditions are compromised, different system, different room, stress on the listener etc, etc, such that the differences become harder to hear.

That is the argument, you decide for yourself which side you are on.

 

 

re your point about subjective observation..that we can hear a difference between cables/interconnects? You then ask us to accept your premise that on blind testing? That no difference could be heard? Sorry I don't accept your premise..Ps you present your premise as if it's a fact? It isn't! Then ask to make up our own minds? Based on what? Spurious facts? When I write my drivel I always try to say 'in my opinion' Or 'in my view' makes me sound less full of bluster! Less 'know all' I'm am subjective..i listen with my ears..in my view people with high quality equipment who use cheap cables /interconnects are foolish...

Actually there is quite a lot of evidence to support what Dave has said, maybe he should have added in his experience as he has done such tests. So its not just his view or opinion. You also state your opinion as fact?

A lot of these big fat cables are for show, appeal to the american audiophile market, look my cables are bigger than yours. 

I certainly hope I don't state my opinions as facts! I usually preface with in my opinion or in my view..i certainly don't offer a premise as a given? Thus supporting a argument..this type of device is used a lot on forums...

Yes you do, you better look back at some comments about changing cables. Here is one "Listen to my kit..then ill remove my lfd top of range two inch thick interconnects between power amp and pre amp..then ill put my vdh the name interconnects between said amp and pre? And you listen..if the difference isnt night and day? The name interconnect is a good one too! Then im a dutchman!" This one is even better "so my post is aimed at the oafs who think all cables sound the same..it bloody not the case!!!!" 

Hmmm does not sound like just an opinion to me. Calling people oafs does not really help your case and just inflames these sort of debates.

it's called a sense of humour..im sorry you appear not to have one? However you stick with cooker cable! Or coat hangers or freebie interconnects/cables..that is fine...but don't expect me to take anything you say seriously.

So your facts are a joke, yes very funny. And where did I ever say use cooker cable and coat hangers? 

you jumped up quick to offer succour to davedotco..so I tarred you with the same brush? Not unreasonable..

 

[davedotco]

I nor sure whether you are being entirely serious, but many comparisons, not dissimilar but more realistic, have been carried out and little if any effect has been reliably detected.

Yes cables can make a difference but when they do it is usually for solid scientific reasons that can be measured and explained. There is no noticeable difference between competently constructed interconnects as any number of blind tests will show, the evidence is pretty conclusive.

Thanks for the reply Dave, I am serious. Opinion on here ranges from it doesn't matter what you use to connect boxes (coat hanger mentioned) through to interconnects make a big difference. Both sides seem entirely entrenched with all of the reasons why the evidence offered by the other is flawed already rehearsed (presumably on previous threads). So what do you do, you look for evidence you can believe yourself and there either will or won't be a difference in the noise floor. Either way, I've learned something and had a mess about in the garage to boot.

Just deciding who you believe when half think one thing and the other half think the other feels more like religion than science - no offence meant, but that's not my chosen path to enlightenment.

It's all about the evidence.

Firstly I have to repeat what I said earlier in the thread, if you get a chance to take part in a properly conducted blind test it will change your outlook completely.

Secondly, you have to discriminate between a persons subjective assessment of (say) a cable change compared to the same assessment performed under controlled conditions.

if you want to do the research, you will find that subjective assessments in this context, are rarely to be trusted, because, quite simply, they fail to stand up to controlled testing.

However it is important to understand that this does not mean that everything sounds the same, far from it. What it really means is that the things that make a real difference to the quality and the enjoyment that we get from our hi-fi systems are often not the things enthusiasts obsess about, but often mechanisms that we do not even know are present.

 

[davedotco]

Perspective.

it is all about perspective. We all know that an analogue music signal is alternating current but in the spectrum of used electronic frequencies it is practically DC. This allows us to use Ohms Law and other simple equations derived for the use in direct current circuits to calculate wattage and current with minimal error.

It is important because many of the (scientific) effects used by cable manufacturers to promote their products are only really important at frequencies orders of magnitude higher than audio.

RF issues, surface effect, grain structure etc are all real but of minimal effect at audio frequencies, for example, RFI interference has such a tiny effect on interconnects that companies like Nordost, XLO and DNM routinely make and sell cables that are entirely unshielded.

In reality cables can and are designed differently but unless they are deliberately engineered to sound different by measurably altering their electrical characteristics they will sound pretty much the same.

Subjectivists will tell you to trust your ears as differences between cables are easy to hear, and yes, most of us have heard these differences. However these are sighted tests only, when such tests are carried out blind, the differences effectively disappear.

There is plenty of evidence of this if you care to look and very little to show that the differences can be reliably heard. Subjectivists will point out that such test conditions are compromised, different system, different room, stress on the listener etc, etc, such that the differences become harder to hear.

That is the argument, you decide for yourself which side you are on.

re your point about subjective observation..that we can hear a difference between cables/interconnects? You then ask us to accept your premise that on blind testing? That no difference could be heard? Sorry I don't accept your premise..Ps you present your premise as if it's a fact? It isn't! Then ask to make up our own minds? Based on what? Spurious facts? When I write my drivel I always try to say 'in my opinion' Or 'in my view' makes me sound less full of bluster! Less 'know all' I'm am subjective..i listen with my ears..in my view people with high quality equipment who use cheap cables /interconnects are foolish...

Actually there is quite a lot of evidence to support what Dave has said, maybe he should have added in his experience as he has done such tests. So its not just his view or opinion. You also state your opinion as fact?

A lot of these big fat cables are for show, appeal to the american audiophile market, look my cables are bigger than yours.

I certainly hope I don't state my opinions as facts! I usually preface with in my opinion or in my view..i certainly don't offer a premise as a given? Thus supporting a argument..this type of device is used a lot on forums...

Yes you do, you better look back at some comments about changing cables. Here is one "Listen to my kit..then ill remove my lfd top of range two inch thick interconnects between power amp and pre amp..then ill put my vdh the name interconnects between said amp and pre? And you listen..if the difference isnt night and day? The name interconnect is a good one too! Then im a dutchman!" This one is even better "so my post is aimed at the oafs who think all cables sound the same..it bloody not the case!!!!"

Hmmm does not sound like just an opinion to me. Calling people oafs does not really help your case and just inflames these sort of debates.

it's called a sense of humour..im sorry you appear not to have one? However you stick with cooker cable! Or coat hangers or freebie interconnects/cables..that is fine...but don't expect me to take anything you say seriously.

So your facts are a joke, yes very funny. And where did I ever say use cooker cable and coat hangers?

you jumped up quick to offer succour to davedotco..so I tarred you with the same brush? Not unreasonable..

Actually it was my good self that, in another thread, suggested 'cooker cable' for use as speaker cable.

In fact, decent quality 30 amp twin and earth (cooker cable) can be stripped down to two 2.5 sq mm solid core cables that, when lightly twisted together, make a perfectly acceptable speaker cable.

And since such cable can cost as little as 50-60p per metre, great value for money too.

"Tarred with the same brush"? Only if you accept that you are directly related to Thompsonuxb.

 

[keeper of the quays]

Perspective.

it is all about perspective. We all know that an analogue music signal is alternating current but in the spectrum of used electronic frequencies it is practically DC. This allows us to use Ohms Law and other simple equations derived for the use in direct current circuits to calculate wattage and current with minimal error.

It is important because many of the (scientific) effects used by cable manufacturers to promote their products are only really important at frequencies orders of magnitude higher than audio.

RF issues, surface effect, grain structure etc are all real but of minimal effect at audio frequencies, for example, RFI interference has such a tiny effect on interconnects that companies like Nordost, XLO and DNM routinely make and sell cables that are entirely unshielded.

In reality cables can and are designed differently but unless they are deliberately engineered to sound different by measurably altering their electrical characteristics they will sound pretty much the same.

Subjectivists will tell you to trust your ears as differences between cables are easy to hear, and yes, most of us have heard these differences. However these are sighted tests only, when such tests are carried out blind, the differences effectively disappear.

There is plenty of evidence of this if you care to look and very little to show that the differences can be reliably heard. Subjectivists will point out that such test conditions are compromised, different system, different room, stress on the listener etc, etc, such that the differences become harder to hear.

That is the argument, you decide for yourself which side you are on.

 

 

re your point about subjective observation..that we can hear a difference between cables/interconnects? You then ask us to accept your premise that on blind testing? That no difference could be heard? Sorry I don't accept your premise..Ps you present your premise as if it's a fact? It isn't! Then ask to make up our own minds? Based on what? Spurious facts? When I write my drivel I always try to say 'in my opinion' Or 'in my view' makes me sound less full of bluster! Less 'know all' I'm am subjective..i listen with my ears..in my view people with high quality equipment who use cheap cables /interconnects are foolish...

Actually there is quite a lot of evidence to support what Dave has said, maybe he should have added in his experience as he has done such tests. So its not just his view or opinion. You also state your opinion as fact?

A lot of these big fat cables are for show, appeal to the american audiophile market, look my cables are bigger than yours. 

I certainly hope I don't state my opinions as facts! I usually preface with in my opinion or in my view..i certainly don't offer a premise as a given? Thus supporting a argument..this type of device is used a lot on forums...

Yes you do, you better look back at some comments about changing cables. Here is one "Listen to my kit..then ill remove my lfd top of range two inch thick interconnects between power amp and pre amp..then ill put my vdh the name interconnects between said amp and pre? And you listen..if the difference isnt night and day? The name interconnect is a good one too! Then im a dutchman!" This one is even better "so my post is aimed at the oafs who think all cables sound the same..it bloody not the case!!!!" 

Hmmm does not sound like just an opinion to me. Calling people oafs does not really help your case and just inflames these sort of debates.

it's called a sense of humour..im sorry you appear not to have one? However you stick with cooker cable! Or coat hangers or freebie interconnects/cables..that is fine...but don't expect me to take anything you say seriously.

So your facts are a joke, yes very funny. And where did I ever say use cooker cable and coat hangers? 

you jumped up quick to offer succour to davedotco..so I tarred you with the same brush? Not unreasonable..

Actually it was my good self that, in another thread, suggested 'cooker cable' for use as speaker cable.

In fact, decent quality 30 amp twin and earth (cooker cable) can be stripped down to two 2.5 sq mm solid core cables that, when lightly twisted together, make a perfectly acceptable speaker cable.

And since such cable can cost as little as 50-60p per metre, great value for money too.

"Tarred with the same brush"? Only if you accept that you are directly related to Thompsonuxb.

I may be his elder more erudite brother? 'the leaves fall not far from the tree'

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Perspective.

it is all about perspective. We all know that an analogue music signal is alternating current but in the spectrum of used electronic frequencies it is practically DC. This allows us to use Ohms Law and other simple equations derived for the use in direct current circuits to calculate wattage and current with minimal error.

It is important because many of the (scientific) effects used by cable manufacturers to promote their products are only really important at frequencies orders of magnitude higher than audio.

RF issues, surface effect, grain structure etc are all real but of minimal effect at audio frequencies, for example, RFI interference has such a tiny effect on interconnects that companies like Nordost, XLO and DNM routinely make and sell cables that are entirely unshielded.

In reality cables can and are designed differently but unless they are deliberately engineered to sound different by measurably altering their electrical characteristics they will sound pretty much the same.

Subjectivists will tell you to trust your ears as differences between cables are easy to hear, and yes, most of us have heard these differences. However these are sighted tests only, when such tests are carried out blind, the differences effectively disappear.

There is plenty of evidence of this if you care to look and very little to show that the differences can be reliably heard. Subjectivists will point out that such test conditions are compromised, different system, different room, stress on the listener etc, etc, such that the differences become harder to hear.

That is the argument, you decide for yourself which side you are on.

 

 

re your point about subjective observation..that we can hear a difference between cables/interconnects? You then ask us to accept your premise that on blind testing? That no difference could be heard? Sorry I don't accept your premise..Ps you present your premise as if it's a fact? It isn't! Then ask to make up our own minds? Based on what? Spurious facts? When I write my drivel I always try to say 'in my opinion' Or 'in my view' makes me sound less full of bluster! Less 'know all' I'm am subjective..i listen with my ears..in my view people with high quality equipment who use cheap cables /interconnects are foolish...

Actually there is quite a lot of evidence to support what Dave has said, maybe he should have added in his experience as he has done such tests. So its not just his view or opinion. You also state your opinion as fact?

A lot of these big fat cables are for show, appeal to the american audiophile market, look my cables are bigger than yours. 

I certainly hope I don't state my opinions as facts! I usually preface with in my opinion or in my view..i certainly don't offer a premise as a given? Thus supporting a argument..this type of device is used a lot on forums...

Yes you do, you better look back at some comments about changing cables. Here is one "Listen to my kit..then ill remove my lfd top of range two inch thick interconnects between power amp and pre amp..then ill put my vdh the name interconnects between said amp and pre? And you listen..if the difference isnt night and day? The name interconnect is a good one too! Then im a dutchman!" This one is even better "so my post is aimed at the oafs who think all cables sound the same..it bloody not the case!!!!" 

Hmmm does not sound like just an opinion to me. Calling people oafs does not really help your case and just inflames these sort of debates.

it's called a sense of humour..im sorry you appear not to have one? However you stick with cooker cable! Or coat hangers or freebie interconnects/cables..that is fine...but don't expect me to take anything you say seriously.

So your facts are a joke, yes very funny. And where did I ever say use cooker cable and coat hangers? 

you jumped up quick to offer succour to davedotco..so I tarred you with the same brush? Not unreasonable..

Actually it was my good self that, in another thread, suggested 'cooker cable' for use as speaker cable.

In fact, decent quality 30 amp twin and earth (cooker cable) can be stripped down to two 2.5 sq mm solid core cables that, when lightly twisted together, make a perfectly acceptable speaker cable.

And since such cable can cost as little as 50-60p per metre, great value for money too.

"Tarred with the same brush"? Only if you accept that you are directly related to Thompsonuxb.

Dave,what's wrong with you?

I have deliberately not bothered to get involved with this thread - that's twice you've mentioned me for no reason.

What's up?

 

[TomSawyer]

In fact, decent quality 30 amp twin and earth (cooker cable) can be stripped down to two 2.5 sq mm solid core cables that, when lightly twisted together, make a perfectly acceptable speaker cable.

And since such cable can cost as little as 50-60p per metre, great value for money too.

30amp cooker cable is usually 6mm sq. 2.5mm sq is rated around 18A for socket rings.

 

[davedotco]

In fact, decent quality 30 amp twin and earth (cooker cable) can be stripped down to two 2.5 sq mm solid core cables that, when lightly twisted together, make a perfectly acceptable speaker cable.

And since such cable can cost as little as 50-60p per metre, great value for money too.

30amp cooker cable is usually 6mm sq. 2.5mm sq is rated around 18A for socket rings.

Quite correct.

It was the Barolo talking....*drinks*

 

[davedotco]

Perspective.

it is all about perspective. We all know that an analogue music signal is alternating current but in the spectrum of used electronic frequencies it is practically DC. This allows us to use Ohms Law and other simple equations derived for the use in direct current circuits to calculate wattage and current with minimal error.

It is important because many of the (scientific) effects used by cable manufacturers to promote their products are only really important at frequencies orders of magnitude higher than audio.

RF issues, surface effect, grain structure etc are all real but of minimal effect at audio frequencies, for example, RFI interference has such a tiny effect on interconnects that companies like Nordost, XLO and DNM routinely make and sell cables that are entirely unshielded.

In reality cables can and are designed differently but unless they are deliberately engineered to sound different by measurably altering their electrical characteristics they will sound pretty much the same.

Subjectivists will tell you to trust your ears as differences between cables are easy to hear, and yes, most of us have heard these differences. However these are sighted tests only, when such tests are carried out blind, the differences effectively disappear.

There is plenty of evidence of this if you care to look and very little to show that the differences can be reliably heard. Subjectivists will point out that such test conditions are compromised, different system, different room, stress on the listener etc, etc, such that the differences become harder to hear.

That is the argument, you decide for yourself which side you are on.

re your point about subjective observation..that we can hear a difference between cables/interconnects? You then ask us to accept your premise that on blind testing? That no difference could be heard? Sorry I don't accept your premise..Ps you present your premise as if it's a fact? It isn't! Then ask to make up our own minds? Based on what? Spurious facts? When I write my drivel I always try to say 'in my opinion' Or 'in my view' makes me sound less full of bluster! Less 'know all' I'm am subjective..i listen with my ears..in my view people with high quality equipment who use cheap cables /interconnects are foolish...

Actually there is quite a lot of evidence to support what Dave has said, maybe he should have added in his experience as he has done such tests. So its not just his view or opinion. You also state your opinion as fact?

A lot of these big fat cables are for show, appeal to the american audiophile market, look my cables are bigger than yours.

I certainly hope I don't state my opinions as facts! I usually preface with in my opinion or in my view..i certainly don't offer a premise as a given? Thus supporting a argument..this type of device is used a lot on forums...

Yes you do, you better look back at some comments about changing cables. Here is one "Listen to my kit..then ill remove my lfd top of range two inch thick interconnects between power amp and pre amp..then ill put my vdh the name interconnects between said amp and pre? And you listen..if the difference isnt night and day? The name interconnect is a good one too! Then im a dutchman!" This one is even better "so my post is aimed at the oafs who think all cables sound the same..it bloody not the case!!!!"

Hmmm does not sound like just an opinion to me. Calling people oafs does not really help your case and just inflames these sort of debates.

it's called a sense of humour..im sorry you appear not to have one? However you stick with cooker cable! Or coat hangers or freebie interconnects/cables..that is fine...but don't expect me to take anything you say seriously.

So your facts are a joke, yes very funny. And where did I ever say use cooker cable and coat hangers?

you jumped up quick to offer succour to davedotco..so I tarred you with the same brush? Not unreasonable..

Actually it was my good self that, in another thread, suggested 'cooker cable' for use as speaker cable.

In fact, decent quality 30 amp twin and earth (cooker cable) can be stripped down to two 2.5 sq mm solid core cables that, when lightly twisted together, make a perfectly acceptable speaker cable.

And since such cable can cost as little as 50-60p per metre, great value for money too.

"Tarred with the same brush"? Only if you accept that you are directly related to Thompsonuxb.

Dave,what's wrong with you?

I have deliberately not bothered to get involved with this thread - that's twice you've mentioned me for no reason.

What's up?

There is only one thing in life worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about.

However, no more stalking. If you don't enjoy the joke, it is not funny. Apologies!

 

[ellisdj]

I thought you had to have a ring i.e to and from the board - then could have a spurs off the ring?

I am not an electrician so forgive a slight error there if it is one - its also semi irrelevant - but I do know how to get a system to sound Really Good - so whatever else you think I say is wrong - trust me that one is 100% right

That is a bold statement to make. Especially from someone running MA PL100 speakers.

I'd have thought that the best way to get a system sounding really good is to not use those horrible MA PL100 speakers?

 

I think it'd be interesting to compare your system, with those MA speakers that I really don't like, with all your attention to detail: cables, mains conditioning, acoustic panels. Against a system with speakers that I do like (doesn't have to be one of my own systems) with freebie cables, no mains conditioning, book-case type furniture.

Based on my experiences so far, I'd be willing to bet on which one would be the better sounding system. But you never know, you might have been able to weave some magic with those little speakers of yours...

Hi LindseyT I have only just seen this sorry for not replying sooner
Happy days were on for this proviso what other system you mean compared to mine we listen together I think that is fair within reason. B&W nautilus might be a bit unfair

I can't confirm what you do and don't like that, my system is setup how I like
However I am confident my system will certainly give an account of itself worthy of everything I say and at the same time if I put a film on blow your socks off.

We need a method of direct communication without directly advertising contact details on here.
Other forums I use is Meridian avforum graham Slee. Do you have an account on any of these?

 

[pauln]

Perhaps the question to Ellis from me is this: would you have achieved a lot more improvement in SQ if you had spent the money on better speakers rather than on what many consider to be 'hifi foo', including the £300 JCAT sata cables? And for a lot less effort, although I do appreciate that you probably enjoy the whole business of tweaking.

 

[ellisdj]

Maybe maybe not I think most people won't have heard these platinums at anything like their best. My room is too small for them to be so but still I have heard lots of speakers now and could have changed manufacturer many times and still could but I have not felt the need to - these are very good speakers. Plus I have still not maxed out what these are capable of yet either I know this 100% so why would I change.

 

[TrevC]

Maybe maybe not I think most people won't have heard these platinums at anything like their best. My room is too small for them to be so but still I have heard lots of speakers now and could have changed manufacturer many times and still could but I have not felt the need to - these are very good speakers. Plus I have still not maxed out what these are capable of yet either I know this 100% so why would I change.

Well, the Isotek is a total waste of £1000, so think of the speakers you could have bought.

 

[ellisdj]

Tell me if anyone thinks this a wrong approach

I heard platinums and really liked them. Heard other speakers still preferred the platinums.

Then set about taking every step possible to get the best sound I can from them in my room so far - still more to be done to improve it its not totally perfect. Integrated into an av system for one of the best home cinemas I have experienced also.

Learnt loads on the way heard lots of other systems in the process none overall I thought was better - some considerably better in ways but not overall better to me.

I am happy to share and show what I have done and let other ears critique it to validate my claims.

I think there will be a few surprised people, hopefully not me

Looks like one soon hopefully