I need longer speaker cable (budget £5 pm max)

[CJSF]

CJSF you are a highly respected member on this forum (certainly by me) but on this occasion:

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n199/gjm55/********.gif

I can buy most things, but directional speaker cables...nope, I can't buy it. Sorry fella. No hard feelings.

Hi MF . . . I respect you coments all ways have . . . have you tried the cable end to end swap? See the 'PS edit in my previous post', just in case you have mixed the positive ends up at some time?

I have to cover my back and say it may not apply to every cable, however, I have not yet heard a cable that does not have some change, some are more obvious than others. All my cable, speaker and interconect, in my system has been evaluated and found to be directional. I have a small plie of cabel in my shed that has been rejected during evaluation for sound and/or directionality. However my experiance is limited, I have only listened to my limited selection over 30 years, usualy for personal use?

At one point, we did do extensive tests on interconect cable over many hours and days!!! The cable we came down on was highly directional, of tiny condutor size, and made of an unusual metal. That cable sold many hundred of sets to those that listened, I still use it today and have had it listened to profesionaly recently. I was asked to remarket it . . . to old, cant be bothered, for the negative resons that have come up in this thread.

I say again MF, have you tried the 'end to end test'?

CJSF

 

[the record spot]

The number of strands in a cable is irrelevant. It is the total cross sectional area 'CSA' of the conductors that matters.

Aim for a CSA of at least 2.5mm^2.

More strands make for a more flexible cable, but there are arguments that a solid conductor works best. 2.5mm^2 mains twin and earth is very cheap, and can be used to good effect.

Hi Andy, I'm happy with my choices and wasn;'t looking for a critique thanks.

I previously use solid core AudioQuest Type IV which I'd had for about ten years. I found the unbranded 322-strand single-wired were slightly better to my ears. I've read Roger Russell's site and favour his views on cables incidentally.

 

[andyjm]

The number of strands in a cable is irrelevant. It is the total cross sectional area 'CSA' of the conductors that matters.

Aim for a CSA of at least 2.5mm^2.

More strands make for a more flexible cable, but there are arguments that a solid conductor works best. 2.5mm^2 mains twin and earth is very cheap, and can be used to good effect.

Hi Andy, I'm happy with my choices and wasn;'t looking for a critique thanks.

I previously use solid core AudioQuest Type IV which I'd had for about ten years. I found the unbranded 322-strand single-wired were slightly better to my ears. I've read Roger Russell's site and favour his views on cables incidentally.

No critique intended, just making the point that the number of strands has nothing to do with the size of the conductors in a speaker cable. Strands are not a standard size. One thick conductor is better than lots of thin conductors if the total cross sectional area of the thick conductor is greater. Size matters. A point Roger makes on his site.

 

[CJSF]

Interesting, ask the practical question; 'have you tried it' . . . it all dries up . . . ? So one presumes, negative views are based on theory and hearsay?

CJSF

 

[MajorFubar]

I say again MF, have you tried the 'end to end test'? CJSF

Sorry mate I missed this! Honest answer is 'not intentionally', but accidentally, yes, probably dozens of times, because I don't take any care over which end goes where when I fit cables, and I've probably fitted the same set of cables both ways countless times without noticing anything.

 

[richardw42]

I think the reason people haven't posted is they don't really want to cause offence.

There are lots of things in this world that you don't need to try. Will a helicopter fly under water ? No. Have you tried it ? No.

Ive seen some **** on these pages but this would be the biggest pile of it yet.

At what point in the process does copper (or other material) become directional. The ore, extraction, spinning or putting a plastic coating with a black felt tip arrow on it.

 

[chebby]

Interesting, ask the practical question; 'have you tried it' . . . it all dries up . . . ? So one presumes, negative views are based on theory and hearsay?

CJSF

Many years ago, when when cable 'directionality' (ugh!) became the new tweak (along with sticky-back foil triangles and other nonsense), I tried a bit of cable reversing and couldn't tell a difference. Tried bi-wiring too (no difference either). This was with a pretty revealing system - at the time - and my ears were 20 years younger too.

I was a bit more gullible back then, so I left the cables connected 'the right way' around just in case. (Well, it didn't cost anything.)

Honestly though, my dealer will solder terminate any new cables with banana plugs for me and i'll connect them up whichever way they happen to present themselves with no regard for which direction the cable details are printed on the insulation.

If you are right, then there is a 25 percent chance that my cables just happen to be the right way around after any occasion that I unplug and move everything to hoover under the the hi-fi and AV bits.

 

[CJSF]

Thats all fine, I will agree to dissagree, I know what my ears tell me and my cable is conected the right way. By the way, I've heard the silver squares and the funny water. I wont tell you what I thought of or think of them . . . ?

So what about heavy speaker stands, I think Kef said many years ago that they did not work . . . I said they could work back in 1980, and proved it, there are a lot of people filling speaker stands these days. Sadly not understanding the affects and therefore the outcome is not always so good?

I will stick to my guns, 'speaker cable can be directionaly affected' . . .

CJSF

 

[Don Guess]

I will stick to my guns, 'speaker cable can be directionaly affected' . . .

CJSF

I've read some wacky claims on here but this one takes some beating.

I bet you couldn't distinguish cable "direction" under blind test conditions. :doh:

 

[CJSF]

I will stick to my guns, 'speaker cable can be directionaly affected' . . .

CJSF

I've read some wacky claims on here but this one takes some beating.

I bet you couldn't distinguish cable "direction" under blind test conditions. :doh:

I dont need to, or have to . . . and its not a wacky claim, its fact for me!

I believe even 'Naim' say their cable is directional, you going to argue with them? By the way, K20 speaker cable is the early Naim cable under a different name, Chebby I believe has the story on that?

Dont ignore the fact I have said, some are more affected than otheres . . . but I've not found one that does not have a tad of dirctionality . . .

The End . . . CJSF

 

[chebby]

I believe even 'Naim' say their cable is directional, you going to argue with them?

Their NACA5 cable is extremely directional. (Just not in the way you are describing.)

If you want it make go around a corner you need a hair dryer to soften the insulation before bending it!

(Otherwise it just goes in absolutely whatever direction it wants to go because it's so inflexible.)

You don't need speakers stands if you use NACA5 cable. It's so rigid it just holds the speakers up in the air.

Not only that but if your Naim dealer prepares a set of NACA5 cables for your Naim system, he will put Naim amp connectors on one end and banana plugs on the other end, so you have no choice but to use them whichever way around he made them. (I couldn't be bothered to re-solder everything just to experiment with something I didn't think mattered anyway.)

 

[andyjm]

I will stick to my guns, 'speaker cable can be directionaly affected' . . .

CJSF

I've read some wacky claims on here but this one takes some beating.

I bet you couldn't distinguish cable "direction" under blind test conditions. :doh:

I dont need to, or have to . . . and its not a wacky claim, its fact for me!

I believe even 'Naim' say their cable is directional, you going to argue with them? By the way, K20 speaker cable is the early Naim cable under a different name, Chebby I believe has the story on that?

Dont ignore the fact I have said, some are more affected than otheres . . . but I've not found one that does not have a tad of dirctionality . . .

The End . . . CJSF

CJSF,

I have no doubt you hear differences when you swap your cables. The question is, has the sound coming out of the speakers changed?

This is not meant to be a trite comment, but as you have clearly spent time and effort investigating this effect, may I suggest you spend a little time to google 'directional speaker cables' and compare that with the results of googling 'suggestion bias' or 'placebo effect'.

I think the balance of probability is that you are hearing differences, not because the sound has changed, but because the framework in which you are evaluating the sound is different. As I have posted before, you listen with your brain, not your ears. Anything that changes the way your brain interprets the sound will make it sound different to you. I am certainly not immune from this effect, I would be surprised if you were.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

I'm loving my Marantz M-CR603 - Totem Dreamcatcher set up. I now need to find some affordable speaker cables to replace the 10 year old LTS High Performance Flat-1 cable that I having been using as they are too short and quite bulky with them being flat. I need two 5 metre lengths and have a budget of £5pm.

Hi womble72

I recommend standard 79 strand or 500 strand OFC speaker cables as I feel they'll be more than good enough for your components. These speaker cables should cost little money and you should also find these speaker cables at local electrical stores.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[womble72]

Thanks Rick. I have a few places local to me and your info will stop me looking like a numpty when I ask them for cable

 

[lindsayt]

CJSF, have you ever tried the experiment of reversing the absolute phase of your system to see if this affected the directionality of your cables?

If the directionality remains in the same direction from amp to speakers then this would indicate that it might be down to there being a better connection at the terminals one way round than the other.

If the directionality reverses with a reversal of the absolute phase this would suggest that maybe the cables themselves really are directional.

 

[the record spot]

No critique intended, just making the point that the number of strands has nothing to do with the size of the conductors in a speaker cable. Strands are not a standard size. One thick conductor is better than lots of thin conductors if the total cross sectional area of the thick conductor is greater. Size matters. A point Roger makes on his site.

That wasn't even the point I was making, but I'm fine with you highlighting a subtopic on the back of it.

I bought the 322-strand to try it out - £5.50 delivered for 10m. The Audioquest Type IV was around £7/metre when I acquired mine, it's now around, or was, £13/metre. So, £130 against £5.50. Sound quality difference is minimal. I'm sure there's bog standard solid core cable out there for next to nothing too.

Salient point for me was - minimal audible difference albeit my preference was for the 322-strand. And as Roger Russell says on his site, as long as the resistance is below 5% of the total speaker impedance, the actual construction of the cable - silver, stranded, solid-core, makes no difference.

As I said, I'm happy with my choices.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

 

[CJSF]

I'm loving my Marantz M-CR603 - Totem Dreamcatcher set up. I now need to find some affordable speaker cables to replace the 10 year old LTS High Performance Flat-1 cable that I having been using as they are too short and quite bulky with them being flat. I need two 5 metre lengths and have a budget of £5pm.

Hi womble72

I recommend standard 79 strand or 500 strand OFC speaker cables as I feel they'll be more than good enough for your components. These speaker cables should cost little money and you should also find these speaker cables at local electrical stores.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Ricks reply puts focus back to the original post, and I agree. Either will do, simply keep the reel ends together, that costs nothing. Then for peace of mind, befor hiding all the cable behind the furniture. Listen then swap both cable end to end and listen again, plug the cables the way you prefered.

It cost nothing, it keeps peace of mind and I may look like I'm talking from my ****? Then again, I might have improved a systems musicality for no extra cost?

Why get so wound up over a no cost, easy to do, minor experiment?

CJSF

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Thanks Rick. I have a few places local to me and your info will stop me looking like a numpty when I ask them for cable

Hi womble72

Your welcome.

Btw, don't worry. Fwiw, I only used standard 500 strand OFC speaker cables with Totem Mite, Arro and Model - 1 Signature speakers. Amplification used was Densen Audio Technologies B-175 Plus and a Plinius Hiato.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[andyjm]

I recommend standard 79 strand or 500 strand OFC speaker cables as I feel they'll be more than good enough for your components. These speaker cables should cost little money and you should also find these speaker cables at local electrical stores.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Cable manufacturers specify the CSA - 'cross sectional area' of the conductors in their cables. This can be made up of 1 thick conductor or mutliple thinner conductors where the individual CSAs add up to the overall cable CSA. The reason for multiple strands is to allow the cable to bend easily, nothing to do with conduction effects.

Real cable data sheets (not the sort you find in HiFi adverts) tell you all you need to know:

http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0b6b/0900766b80b6bbb7.pdf

Near the top on the left is "7/46/0.1 + PVC" - thats 7 bundles of 46 strands, each 0.1mm in diameter and a PVC insulating jacket.

All the following are 2.5mm^2 CSA and have the same resistance:

50/0.25 - 50 strands, 0.25mm

79/0.2 - 79 strands, 0.2mm

322/0.1 - 322 strands, 0.1mm

7/46/0.1 - 322 strands, 0.1mm arranged as 7 bundles and then twisted.

So when you are looking to part with your hard earned cash, ignore the number of strands unless cable flexibility is important to you, and focus on cross sectional area.

 

[MajorFubar]

So what about heavy speaker stands, I think Kef said many years ago that they did not work . . . I said they could work back in 1980, and proved it, there are a lot of people filling speaker stands these days. Sadly not understanding the affects and therefore the outcome is not always so good?

The reason why good solid speaker-supports can affect the sound is fairly easy to explain when you're talking about holding an electromagnetic transducer (speaker) as rigidly as possible with no resonance.. At the opposite end of your HiFi it's the same reason why turntable arms aren't made out of rubber.. Probably the only reason Kef (and others?) said they didn't work is because they didn't make any.

If we extend your beliefs further, then what about other cables, like mains cables, which also carry AC current, just like speaker cables? If I experiment with reversing all the underfloor mains cables to the sockets, will my microwave cook my dinner faster? Will my lights be brighter? Will my fridge cool things faster? Will my HiFi sound better?

You must know deep down that at a scientific level it's utter rubbish. But if it makes you a happy man, then there's no harm in it.

 

[BigH]

I believe even 'Naim' say their cable is directional, you going to argue with them? By the way, K20 speaker cable is the early Naim cable under a different name, Chebby I believe has the story on that?

Believe what Naim say, NO I would not, they are the ones that said you had to use 3.5m of Naim speaker cable with their amps otherwise they would blow-up. How much is Naim cable compared to K20?

 

[chebby]

Believe what Naim say, NO I would not, they are the ones that said you had to use 3.5m of Naim speaker cable with their amps otherwise they would blow-up. How much is Naim cable compared to K20?

Sadly this is still true.

From the latest Naim Integrated Amplifiers manual...

"Loudspeaker cables are vitally important. They should each be at least 3.5 metres long and of equal length. The recommended maximum is normally 20 metres although longer cables may be viable with some Naim amplifiers.

Some Naim amplifiers are designed only to work with Naim loudspeaker cable and using alternatives may degrade the performance or even damage the amplifier. Other Naim amplifiers can be used with any high quality loudspeaker cable although we recommend that Naim loudspeaker cable is used. Naim loudspeaker cable is directional and should be oriented so that the printed arrow points towards the speakers.

The Naim loudspeaker connectors supplied are designed to comply with European safety legislation and must be used."

I thought Naim had - in more recent years and with more recent equipment - modified this advice but they are still doing the old scare tactic.

 

[BigH]

I have read that cable gets used to the direction of flow, so if you turn it around it will sound different but keep playing it and it will reburn in the opposite direction and after a while sound as good as before. On sheilded cables they may be a reason for the direction of course.

 

[Dougal1331]

Audioquest FLX SLiP 14/4.

This has to be the worst moniker ever for a speaker cable... Sure it's good stuff but FLX SLiP? Hmmm...

 

[CJSF]

I believe even 'Naim' say their cable is directional, you going to argue with them? By the way, K20 speaker cable is the early Naim cable under a different name, Chebby I believe has the story on that?

How much is Naim cable compared to K20?

I have no idea BigH, but £5 a meter is enough for me on K20, which I have compared to TQ Black, sonicaly and directionaly. I cant remember how directional TQ was, no much as it would have registered in my mind if it was bad???? But sonicaly, the K20 was very, very close, close enough to make the almost x10 price differance unjustifiable.

By the way, K20 has better base response in the right direction, it is a very small differeance, one would suspect some systems may not register the small differeances? Some would even say it is so small that its not worth worrying about. Other cables I have tried register much bigger changes one way to the other, OF 500 strand for instance, in my system, has a very distinct 'tiz' in the high frequancies in the wrong direction.

We could go round and round on this, I'm not going to change my thinking that is based on practical experiance am I.

CJSF