tonky said:
We've already established in the first post in this thread that they don't. The question is whether the differences were easily explained by differences in measurements, volume level/gain, power, etc...
We've already established in the first post in this thread that they don't. The question is whether the differences were easily explained by differences in measurements, volume level/gain, power, etc...
NSA_watch_my_toilet said:
Good point! My belief is that we should audition with our ears (not just read spec sheets), but you really want to have enough basic knowledge to know when it's likely that a difference in sound is due to a parlour trick rather than real improvements. It can save you a lot of time and money as you know where to focus your attention.
Ajani said:
Statistically reliable double blind testing is way beyond most maunufacturers, and I would think most magazines, even on a 'one off' basis. To do such tests on a regular basis would be next to impossible, too technically complex, too time consuming, too expensive.
What is possible though is, when going for a dem, is to ask the dealer to set up his choice of components to compare with your choice. Don't ask what he has chosen, just compare, see what happens. If you are well prepared, take a track with test tones and a multimeter, if you do it is simple to match levels on amps, dacs etc. Listen again and see what happens.
There have been so many posts on whether you should use your ears or whatever, if you can actually listen with levels matched you will learn something and possibly even hear something interesting.
matt49
Well-known member
davedotco said:
Indeed, even the pharmaceutical industry complains about the cost and time burden of randomized double blind trials, and their pockets are way deeper than the hi-fi industry's.
matt49 said:
Agreed, however, maybe it should be forced upon those companies that make spurious claims without any back up. I know there's a few companied (schiit) for example that don't make airy fairy claims, just here is the device, here are the measurements, go for it. So either the company has to just state the facts (and by that I don't mean testimonals) or they have to carry out a whole raft of tests to prove their claims. I know it won't happen, but it would be nice.
cheeseboy said:
Well said. DBT is not necessary when the manufacturer can provide proper measurements. So not every manufacturer needs to do it.
matt49
Well-known member
cheeseboy said:
It would constitute an unlawful and arguably undesirable restraint of trade. As things stand, factual, objective claims for the performance of products do have to be backed up with evidence. That's covered by advertising standards legislation. But opinion-based claims don't. ('This face creams makes me feel years younger!') That seems to me to be the right balance.
Ajani said:
My belief is that we should audition with our intellect and do no listening. Yes, NO LISTENING.
We should be listening to music, not components. Listening to gear should be done in DBT by manufacturers and reviewers. Sighted testing is so unreliable, it is pointless to waste a second of your time on it. Pick hi-fi based on knowledge and data and then just plug the thing on and enjoy music. If you are shopping for noise making furniture, then listening is OK. If you want fidelity, accuracy, then no listening, just thinking. If I am too uninformed how to comprise a system for my needs, I can rely on a hi-fi dealer and other shop staff to help me.
Unfortunately to do this we need manufacturers to provide detailed and non-misleading specifications, and hi-fi publications to do objective non-biased reviews with included measurments to confirm or oppose the measured data published by the manufacturer. All we do as consumers is listen to music and vote with our money which manufacturer stays in the game. How far are we from this utopia today?
Vladimir said:
In that Utopia, we wouldn't need to listen, but even then that assumes the consumer wants accuracy. Not everyone is after the most accurate sound.
Ajani said:
I added the bit about using help from informed and knowledgable staff in hi-fi dealerships (online or B&M). I don't have to know anything about audio but I could benefit if my dealer does and has the objective information to work with. If a dealer tells me A sounds better than B, therefore I should buy A, he is influencing my decision based on his subjective preference. He may think the highest praise of his taste and hearing, but that is again flawed as with any human.
tonky said:
I do!
BTW. I'm making a video of a short lecture by the head of acoustics for DTS. It explains human hearing, how to measure, mentions cables and one smoking Naim. Will upload on Youtube in a few.
what you've been smoking Vladimir - I only trust my ears in my own listening environment - it's the only way.
tonky - listen to my naim - don't smoke it!
tonky - listen to my naim - don't smoke it!
Covenanter
Well-known member
At the end of the day all we can do is listen and choose. Nobody is going to do systematic DBTs on a wide range of equipment. I can't think of anybody with the relevant self-interest.
Chris
Chris
manicm
Well-known member
Vladimir said:
My God was this post so menopausal and pompous. Get yourself some decongestants and antacids. When did I ever bring up cords? And I would trust the one that comes with a brand new Marantz amp would be safe. Just get over your self.
manicm
Well-known member
Yes, all cd players have sounded the same for all time, no difference between dacs, and though I spent months with components albeit through sighted hearing my decision was invalid or inconclusive since I was a consumer and devoid of engineering knowledge.
Bravo Herr Vladimir, king of sucking the fun out of a hifi forum.
Bravo Herr Vladimir, king of sucking the fun out of a hifi forum.
I was impressed that this thread managed to reach 100 posts without descending into bickering and name calling... It was good while it lasted.
MeanandGreen
Well-known member
I agree with Vladimir to a point about not listening. I did not audition a single piece of any of my current equipment and I'm happy with all of it.
I always read the technical data for a product and then I use a selection of reviews from actual people who have bought the product to help make my final judgements. I've always found listening to kit in the shop totally pointless, I've never been impressed by any Hi Fi in a dealers in my life. Hi Fi has always performed way better at home for me.
Back in the 90's when I was at my peak of buying Hi Fi and making upgrades I used to read What Hi Fi a lot as well as Hi Fi Choice. I often found their opinions very contradicting, which made no sence to me and alarm bells started to ring.
I spent a bit of time auditioning speakers in proper dem rooms and I can remember being throughly dissapointed with what I was hearing. The same speakers at home always sounded so much better for whatever reason. I spent quite a bit of time with different products in different price ranges expecting to hear huge differences if the reviews were anything to go by and I only ever heard subtleties, not night and day changes as the press made out.
Over time I actually came to realise that a lot of Hi Fi talk is really BS. If a product measures well which is the only real proof for how it performs, then it must sound good. I think it is very easy to choose electronics based on specs. Speakers are the most likely thing to get wrong and in my personal experience loudspeaker and room interaction is the single most important thing in Hi Fi to get right. That really should be top priority over everything else.
If you want to audition anything it should be the speakers and that should be in the room you want to use them in. Auditioning several products in a shop is totally pointless as there are so many variables to consider that it is not even remotely close to an accurate assessment. I do honestly believe that there is no need at all to audition CD Players, Amps or DAC's in a Hi Fi store. The technical specs tell you what you need to know. There may be exceptions with certain amp and speaker combinations, but like I said trying speakers out in the environment and system which they are to be used is the solution there.
I have 2 systems.
My CD Player, 2 CD Recorders, Blu Ray Player, DVD Player, cheap unbranded DAC and more expensive 10 times the cost of the cheap DAC all sound indistinguishable to me. The on paper specs for them are all very, VERY similar.
My two current amplifiers sound the same under the same listening conditions.
My 3 pairs of headphones all sound very different, my current 2 pairs of speakers sound very different.
In my experience comparing the specs tells you a lot of the story. Loudspeakers are by far the biggest variable along with acoustics of the listening environment. The electronics in this day and age are more than capeable of delivering high fidelity without spending big bucks.
Also electronic components are incredibly cheap. It is not expensive to build any audio circuit capeable of high fidelity.
I always read the technical data for a product and then I use a selection of reviews from actual people who have bought the product to help make my final judgements. I've always found listening to kit in the shop totally pointless, I've never been impressed by any Hi Fi in a dealers in my life. Hi Fi has always performed way better at home for me.
Back in the 90's when I was at my peak of buying Hi Fi and making upgrades I used to read What Hi Fi a lot as well as Hi Fi Choice. I often found their opinions very contradicting, which made no sence to me and alarm bells started to ring.
I spent a bit of time auditioning speakers in proper dem rooms and I can remember being throughly dissapointed with what I was hearing. The same speakers at home always sounded so much better for whatever reason. I spent quite a bit of time with different products in different price ranges expecting to hear huge differences if the reviews were anything to go by and I only ever heard subtleties, not night and day changes as the press made out.
Over time I actually came to realise that a lot of Hi Fi talk is really BS. If a product measures well which is the only real proof for how it performs, then it must sound good. I think it is very easy to choose electronics based on specs. Speakers are the most likely thing to get wrong and in my personal experience loudspeaker and room interaction is the single most important thing in Hi Fi to get right. That really should be top priority over everything else.
If you want to audition anything it should be the speakers and that should be in the room you want to use them in. Auditioning several products in a shop is totally pointless as there are so many variables to consider that it is not even remotely close to an accurate assessment. I do honestly believe that there is no need at all to audition CD Players, Amps or DAC's in a Hi Fi store. The technical specs tell you what you need to know. There may be exceptions with certain amp and speaker combinations, but like I said trying speakers out in the environment and system which they are to be used is the solution there.
I have 2 systems.
My CD Player, 2 CD Recorders, Blu Ray Player, DVD Player, cheap unbranded DAC and more expensive 10 times the cost of the cheap DAC all sound indistinguishable to me. The on paper specs for them are all very, VERY similar.
My two current amplifiers sound the same under the same listening conditions.
My 3 pairs of headphones all sound very different, my current 2 pairs of speakers sound very different.
In my experience comparing the specs tells you a lot of the story. Loudspeakers are by far the biggest variable along with acoustics of the listening environment. The electronics in this day and age are more than capeable of delivering high fidelity without spending big bucks.
Also electronic components are incredibly cheap. It is not expensive to build any audio circuit capeable of high fidelity.
manicm
Well-known member
The thing is everything gets reduced to the lowest common denominator - that all buyers are stupid. Resisting a hifi salesman is no different to resisting a car salesman. My dealer tried convincing me the CM1 was better than the MA RX1, he sold both but I went with the latter. Standing your ground should be rule no 1.
A gourmet is someone who obsesses how food tastes, not so much about its nutritional value or impact on the metabolism. A nutritionist obsesses about how healthy food is, not so much how it tastes. Audiophiles are like people who obsess about eating healthy but choose food based on taste and not through info derived from lab tests.
manicm said:
An attitude expressed by at least one former dealer on this forum relatively recently.
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