HiFi - Facts, Fiction and Conjecture

[Vladimir]

I agree with Vladimir to a point about not listening. I did not audition a single piece of any of my current equipment and I'm happy with all of it.

I always read the technical data for a product and then I use a selection of reviews from actual people who have bought the product to help make my final judgements. I've always found listening to kit in the shop totally pointless, I've never been impressed by any Hi Fi in a dealers in my life. Hi Fi has always performed way better at home for me.

Back in the 90's when I was at my peak of buying Hi Fi and making upgrades I used to read What Hi Fi a lot as well as Hi Fi Choice. I often found their opinions very contradicting, which made no sence to me and alarm bells started to ring.

I spent a bit of time auditioning speakers in proper dem rooms and I can remember being throughly dissapointed with what I was hearing. The same speakers at home always sounded so much better for whatever reason. I spent quite a bit of time with different products in different price ranges expecting to hear huge differences if the reviews were anything to go by and I only ever heard subtleties, not night and day changes as the press made out.

Over time I actually came to realise that a lot of Hi Fi talk is really BS. If a product measures well which is the only real proof for how it performs, then it must sound good. I think it is very easy to choose electronics based on specs. Speakers are the most likely thing to get wrong and in my personal experience loudspeaker and room interaction is the single most important thing in Hi Fi to get right. That really should be top priority over everything else.

If you want to audition anything it should be the speakers and that should be in the room you want to use them in. Auditioning several products in a shop is totally pointless as there are so many variables to consider that it is not even remotely close to an accurate assessment. I do honestly believe that there is no need at all to audition CD Players, Amps or DAC's in a Hi Fi store. The technical specs tell you what you need to know. There may be exceptions with certain amp and speaker combinations, but like I said trying speakers out in the environment and system which they are to be used is the solution there.

I have 2 systems.

My CD Player, 2 CD Recorders, Blu Ray Player, DVD Player, cheap unbranded DAC and more expensive 10 times the cost of the cheap DAC all sound indistinguishable to me. The on paper specs for them are all very, VERY similar.

My two current amplifiers sound the same under the same listening conditions.

My 3 pairs of headphones all sound very different, my current 2 pairs of speakers sound very different.

In my experience comparing the specs tells you a lot of the story. Loudspeakers are by far the biggest variable along with acoustics of the listening environment. The electronics in this day and age are more than capeable of delivering high fidelity without spending big bucks.

Also electronic components are incredibly cheap. It is not expensive to build any audio circuit capeable of high fidelity.

I've had fairly similar experiences with HiFi.

so would you choose clothes, a car, a wife in the same way?

How would you propose that I do that? Since I audition speakers and use measurements etc for the electronics.

Clothes are bought primarily for aesthetic appeal, so specs aren't critical. I don't buy cars because they are "fun to drive", I buy them for practicality (I have an older Nissan Xtrail, that I plan to replace with a Subaru Forester - so that should give you some perspective). I won't even discuss a wife, as I don't like the suggestion of lumping my wife into the same category as clothes and electronics.

So purchasing hifi should be purely a scientific experience, even though its use is for emotion, joy and pleasure?

To my mind its not that different to buying a nice shoe - good fit, finish, comfort, and yes aesthetics.

Being an audiophile should be an intellectual experience. Listening to music should be an emotional experience.

That's a very subjective opinion, so all audiophiles would take no pleasure in purchasing hifi, even after all evaluations etc??

That's a very pessimistic and myopic view of the world you have. If that were Utopia it be brutally boring.

And by the way you're the first person I've ever come across to equate audiophiles with intellectualism. In all the rags I've read like Hifi News or Hifi World etc...

I was started off in this hobby by a man who is an intellectual and as a kid I idolized it. But eventually I figured out that this hobby is not an intellectual pursuit in technology adjacent to emotional pursuit in music, but a niche circle jerk of technically ignorant men who gush estrogen over placebo inducing electrical appliances and compete who has the most expensive toy. I wish I cold migrate away from the present Distopia, but I see no alternatives. Best I could some years ago was to remove "Audiophile" from Interests in my CV. I can't prevent others calling me an idiot, but at least I won't stick that label to myself.

 

[manicm]

Vladimir you seem, for reasons unknown, to have a huge chip on your shoulder. But bringing in intellectualism into the debate as far as audiophiles go does no service to anybody or anything. Your mentor may have been an intellectual, period.

The people at Hifi World and Hifi News are obviously very intelligent people. And invariably, the better measuring pieces cost more, generalisation but that's the pattern I've seen from those magazines, the ones that are respected. So you can't have your cake and eat it too, if you're so zealously obsessed about measurements.

But who here is advocating the most expensive hifi, or even cables etc?

Your angst is misplaced, and borders on paranoia.

Cars are essential to some people, needed for their livelihoods, last time I checked hifi is not a life or death affair.

I was once derided on this forum for expressing interest in Naim's Statement, person saying that such equipment is elitist. There is fascination in much cheaper stuff as well. And this is a hifi forum.

I suggest you come back to Earth.

 

[Vladimir]

I will not go back in the Matrix!

 

[tonky]

stay in your padded cell. You will be safe there.

tonky

 

[Vladimir]

stay in your padded cell. You will be safe there.

tonky

From your choice of gear I presume they keep yours unpadded.

 

[tonky]

Mine's padded too - it absorbs the sound better - no unwanted reflections.

But tbh vlad - it's not about the equipment, sound quality or music where you're concerned you just use the most obtuse arguments to denigrate (sometimes quite rudely) other peoples opinions and your troll like behaviour doesn't do you any favours .

tonky

 

[Vladimir]

Mine's padded too - it absorbs the sound better - no unwanted reflections.

But tbh vlad - it's not about the equipment, sound quality or music where you're concerned you just use the most obtuse arguments to denigrate (sometimes quite rudely) other peoples opinions and your troll like behaviour doesn't do you any favours .

tonky

And I thank you for your well natured advice tonky. I wish you a pleasant evening.

 

[tonky]

I felt I someone needed to tell you as you seem so completely unaware - and that's very sad.

 

[Vladimir]

There are still good people in this world.

Ajani, sorry for the off topic.

 

[tonky]

well, that must be a first - most definitely not!

 

[matt49]

There are still good people in this world.

The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

 

[Vladimir]

Since I'm more interesting than the topic, I guess we are pretty much done with this thread.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Since I'm more interesting than the topic, I guess we are pretty much done with this thread.

how about helping me understand my problem I have please on my post I do need the help as your know the ins and outs of Hifi before I wast £800 on something that might not work as you understand specs on amps & speakers to see if me bi amping is going to work for me . Your help would be appreciated

 

[NSA_watch_my_toilet]

.

 

[NSA_watch_my_toilet]

Guys ! Please ! When I'm reading you, I have the impression you are ganging on someone who is not sharing your beliefs and it's disgusting. Could you please stop that.

I want to react about the "fact" that all amplifiers are sounding different. Please give us your sources, because, for beeing frank, they are numerous sources about "very identical sounding amps", and that are incredibly more serious than simply Scott Malkovitch hearing things in his garage and some hifi journalist wanting to please his sponsor. I will refere to the famed austrian Vienna blindtests, that was hold numerous times and with great participants (hifi builders, journalists and scientists). They was not able to spot audible differences between the demoed amplifiers. It will be often like this when you are not seeing the amps running because our brain and senses are functionning together in a complex machinery that is not completley isolated from another. You have all experienced those days, when you slept well and you are listening music and it's awesome, and you all have experienced to listening music when you are exhausted and it's sound like poo poo. This is one example. Drink wine, and the sound will be another again, drink tooo much wine, and the sound varies again. Your hearing is not a fix component and is a very butcher tool when it comes to "mesuring things precisely". They are peoples with perfect auditions (the absolute hearing), but they are around 0.2 % of the world population.

Studies about our hearing are all according to the facts (and yes, studies, not peoples telling on the internet), that we are making different interpretations of sound leaded by what we see, and that we have a very short-time ability to distinguish tones with a 100% ability, turning around 20/25 seconds. Although, that we always will preferea louder sound to a quieter sound because we will hear more details in louder sound reproductions. (Sources : American journal of Audiology) All this is coming together for understanding why so much peoples believe to hear differences when they aren't. Or better said, the differences are so minimal that you couldn't spot it, or at least if you are a bat. Please have a look at the following mesures :

this link that will bring you to a reference forum that had a 511 pages discussion about that. Some participants where very knowledgable. So, if you look away from the b_tchtalk, then you will learn a lot on this theme.