HiFi - Facts, Fiction and Conjecture

[davedotco]

Between objectivism and listening? I just don't get it....*unknw*

Listening to electronic appliances to determine their performance inside a system, in a room with all reflections and room modes? Despite limitation of human hearing and extremely short audible memory, susception to bias, visual stimulations and suggestion, why not just listen?

And no, listening at home does not improve things that much. You just eliminate the room out of the equation but you still introduce the lack of active audio memory to compare components since you send the other pair to the shop, or you are not Flash Gordon fast enough to swap them to the exact location under 5 seconds and return to the exact position of listening with your head, and your metabolism exactly the same. And not to mention a new set of bias' are introduced with the new looks, price, brand, suggestions etc.

Rely on flawed human senses and perception or rely on science? I choose door #2. I paid through the nose for 'upgrading' door #1.

That's for chasing accuracy aka fidelity. But if I want hedonism, if I want to stimulate my biases and senses as well as boost my social ratings in the hobby, I'll be buying something I like superficially and appologize to no one.

You are right in that listening is totally flawed but this is not the point. There is absolutely no point in trying to derive objective conclusions from subjective evaluations.

The point being made is that, when you audition the equipment you allow all your expectations and biases to become part of your decision. If you really like sensitive volume controls because of the sense of power that it gives even if you understand that you are being conned, then buy one, you will be more comfortable. Similarly if you believe that speaker cables have to be the same length, then make it so. There is an awful lot to be said for buying what you want rather than what you should have.

You evaluate the system, not in hi-fi qualitive terms but in how you react to it in all respects. If you really like some 'blinged up' integrated amplifier, then buy it. It doesn't matter if, to me, it sounds like a rusty old tin can its irrelevant.

You also have to understand the need to buy the 'right' amplifier (say), peer group pressure and branding are very powerful and not to be discounted, in fact you probably can't however hard you try.

 

[Vladimir]

Yes, that 'holistic' approach is what Stereophile has as its paradigm. In real life everything matters. If you are captured by the Naim story, you want 30W that sound like 300W and no osciloscope print-outs will convince you otherwise. It gets to the extreme where 0% sonic benefits and 100% placebo is considered a valid hi-fi product now.

There is a joke about homeopathy and their concept that the more diluted the medicine, stronger it gets: A man died from an overdose from his homeopathic medicine because he forgot to take it.

 

[davedotco]

Yes, that 'holistic' approach is what Stereophile has as its paradigm. In real life everything matters. If you are captured by the Naim story, you want 30W that sound like 300W and no osciloscope print-outs will convince you otherwise. It gets to the extreme where 0% sonic benefits and 100% placebo is considered a valid hi-fi product now.

There is a joke about homeopathy and their concept that the more diluted the medicine, stronger it gets: A man died from an overdose from his homeopathic medicine because he forgot to take it.

Taking the mickey, but it is true enough.

The practical result of all this is that you embrace your predjudices and get them to work for you, I 'hate' the sound of Audiolab and Marantz amplifiers, so nothing could induce me to buy one, even though I would, in all probability, be unable to tell them from my prefered options in a blind test. That's just the way it is.

What is important though is that I do not try and push these preferences on to another person, which is why the kind of advice, so common on here, of recommending your favourite product is pointless, unless you have evidence or a really good reason why it is the correct choice in this instance.

I used to recommend the Croft as the 'best' sub £1000 amplifier I knew, despite the fact that it measures poorly and is underpowered (by my own standards). Yet with most sensible speakers it is outstandingly realistic and tactile, presumeably because of it's flaws...*unknw*

 

[jmjones]

Lol! Like that one Vlad.

By the way though, I'm using my flawed senses until somebody comes up with an acceptable alternative. When they come up with a wireless hdmi fitting for the back of my head, I'll buy one, and save money on amps and speakers (at this point I am expecting Vlad to post a video of this happening).

 

[tonky]

some of the hifi mags ( in WH smith - cheapskate - I know) - I didn't realise Stereophile was also a complimentary therapy mag as well - certainly not apparent to me - but then again I am a bit of an objectivist when I read a magazine and much more of a subjectivist when it comes to auditioning. It is somewhat condescending to use what are turning out to be silly analogies which have nothing to do with the with the listening experience we love!

I have owned and listened to various amps over the years - 30 W to 120 W RMS per channel. Volume controls don't bother me - I turn it to a point where it sounds very nice in my room. None of them sounded as subjectively loud as the 120 Watter. The 50 Watt naim ( in Unitilite) sounds "different" . It's not "as loud" doesn't sound "as loud" and nobody would be as foolish as some would have us think we are in being able to discern this. But I much prefer the way it presents " the music"!

In my home - with my speakers - the differences between them are obvious - and I prefer the less powerful Naim unitilite. It's called the musical approach - also it relies on "common sense". One or two posters on this thread are not showing too much of that!

tonky - it's my naim - not yours!

 

[manicm]

And you are either 0% against us or 100% with us. Everything is all or nothing. With 500 quid you'll get a Marantz integrated or Arcam, or something left field, or something Behringer, or an all-in-one, or a nice AV amp, and I'll bet measurement wise each and every one of them will be compromised. And so let's just just put our hands into our heads with despair. There is no hope.

So get yourself a Statement then. Sorry no, it's made by Naim.

And everyone may prefer accuracy but everyone streams MP3s through Spotify etc, and then we complain about loudness/levelling compression. And then the measurements don't add up.

And we realise we're still on Earth. Weird

 

[Vladimir]

Yes, that 'holistic' approach is what Stereophile has as its paradigm. In real life everything matters. If you are captured by the Naim story, you want 30W that sound like 300W and no osciloscope print-outs will convince you otherwise. It gets to the extreme where 0% sonic benefits and 100% placebo is considered a valid hi-fi product now.

There is a joke about homeopathy and their concept that the more diluted the medicine, stronger it gets: A man died from an overdose from his homeopathic medicine because he forgot to take it.

Taking the mickey, but it is true enough.

The practical result of all this is that you embrace your predjudices and get them to work for you, I 'hate' the sound of Audiolab and Marantz amplifiers, so nothing could induce me to buy one, even though I would, in all probability, be unable to tell them from my prefered options in a blind test. That's just the way it is.

What is important though is that I do not try and push these preferences on to another person, which is why the kind of advice, so common on here, of recommending your favourite product is pointless, unless you have evidence or a really good reason why it is the correct choice in this instance.

I used to recommend the Croft as the 'best' sub £1000 amplifier I knew, despite the fact that it measures poorly and is underpowered (by my own standards). Yet with most sensible speakers it is outstandingly realistic and tactile, presumeably because of it's flaws...*unknw*

The only difference between a magician and a psychic is honesty. One is a honest illusionist and the other is a lying opportunistic bast**d.

Notice how in cable debates the same question is asked as with 'psychics': "What's the harm?", "It comforts people." etc.

 

[Ajani]

IMO, there are 2 extremes here, both of which are best avoided:

1) Completely "trust you ears" and ignore science/measurements. Yes, you can build a great sounding system this way, but you can also spend years and $$$$$$ focusing on items that make relatively small/no difference to the sound quality. I suspect a lot of the upgraditis in this hobby is partially due to this approach.

2) Don't audition anything and just read a spec sheet. Yes, you can build a great sounding system this way too, but it really requires you to understand the measurements in a way that most can't/don't want to. It also assumes that we are at the stage where we can measure all relevant aspects of the sound.

My prefered approach is to use the science to help focus my listening (sighted) on the areas where I will get the most benefit: Speakers. I don't audition cables nor do I spend much time fretting about DACs. I don't even need to have a thorough understanding of the measurements because there are several excellent review sites that will not only show you the measurements, but give you a nice little conclusion on the measurements (for example Stereophile). So I eliminate products that measure poorly, as there are more than enough products with good to excellent measurements to choose from. I then focus my listening tests on speakers and headphones.

 

[Ajani]

I agree with Vladimir to a point about not listening. I did not audition a single piece of any of my current equipment and I'm happy with all of it.

I always read the technical data for a product and then I use a selection of reviews from actual people who have bought the product to help make my final judgements. I've always found listening to kit in the shop totally pointless, I've never been impressed by any Hi Fi in a dealers in my life. Hi Fi has always performed way better at home for me.

Back in the 90's when I was at my peak of buying Hi Fi and making upgrades I used to read What Hi Fi a lot as well as Hi Fi Choice. I often found their opinions very contradicting, which made no sence to me and alarm bells started to ring.

I spent a bit of time auditioning speakers in proper dem rooms and I can remember being throughly dissapointed with what I was hearing. The same speakers at home always sounded so much better for whatever reason. I spent quite a bit of time with different products in different price ranges expecting to hear huge differences if the reviews were anything to go by and I only ever heard subtleties, not night and day changes as the press made out.

Over time I actually came to realise that a lot of Hi Fi talk is really BS. If a product measures well which is the only real proof for how it performs, then it must sound good. I think it is very easy to choose electronics based on specs. Speakers are the most likely thing to get wrong and in my personal experience loudspeaker and room interaction is the single most important thing in Hi Fi to get right. That really should be top priority over everything else.

If you want to audition anything it should be the speakers and that should be in the room you want to use them in. Auditioning several products in a shop is totally pointless as there are so many variables to consider that it is not even remotely close to an accurate assessment. I do honestly believe that there is no need at all to audition CD Players, Amps or DAC's in a Hi Fi store. The technical specs tell you what you need to know. There may be exceptions with certain amp and speaker combinations, but like I said trying speakers out in the environment and system which they are to be used is the solution there.

I have 2 systems.

My CD Player, 2 CD Recorders, Blu Ray Player, DVD Player, cheap unbranded DAC and more expensive 10 times the cost of the cheap DAC all sound indistinguishable to me. The on paper specs for them are all very, VERY similar.

My two current amplifiers sound the same under the same listening conditions.

My 3 pairs of headphones all sound very different, my current 2 pairs of speakers sound very different.

In my experience comparing the specs tells you a lot of the story. Loudspeakers are by far the biggest variable along with acoustics of the listening environment. The electronics in this day and age are more than capeable of delivering high fidelity without spending big bucks.

Also electronic components are incredibly cheap. It is not expensive to build any audio circuit capeable of high fidelity.

I've had fairly similar experiences with HiFi.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Why can't hi-fi salesmen be like this. This hobby would bloom.

This link is forbidden so i presume that i may agree

Fixed. The original site doesn't allow external linking (saving on traffic).

Lovely, i would buy a leema from her anyday

 

[Infiniteloop]

I agree with Vladimir to a point about not listening. I did not audition a single piece of any of my current equipment and I'm happy with all of it.

I always read the technical data for a product and then I use a selection of reviews from actual people who have bought the product to help make my final judgements. I've always found listening to kit in the shop totally pointless, I've never been impressed by any Hi Fi in a dealers in my life. Hi Fi has always performed way better at home for me.

Back in the 90's when I was at my peak of buying Hi Fi and making upgrades I used to read What Hi Fi a lot as well as Hi Fi Choice. I often found their opinions very contradicting, which made no sence to me and alarm bells started to ring.

I spent a bit of time auditioning speakers in proper dem rooms and I can remember being throughly dissapointed with what I was hearing. The same speakers at home always sounded so much better for whatever reason. I spent quite a bit of time with different products in different price ranges expecting to hear huge differences if the reviews were anything to go by and I only ever heard subtleties, not night and day changes as the press made out.

Over time I actually came to realise that a lot of Hi Fi talk is really BS. If a product measures well which is the only real proof for how it performs, then it must sound good. I think it is very easy to choose electronics based on specs. Speakers are the most likely thing to get wrong and in my personal experience loudspeaker and room interaction is the single most important thing in Hi Fi to get right. That really should be top priority over everything else.

If you want to audition anything it should be the speakers and that should be in the room you want to use them in. Auditioning several products in a shop is totally pointless as there are so many variables to consider that it is not even remotely close to an accurate assessment. I do honestly believe that there is no need at all to audition CD Players, Amps or DAC's in a Hi Fi store. The technical specs tell you what you need to know. There may be exceptions with certain amp and speaker combinations, but like I said trying speakers out in the environment and system which they are to be used is the solution there.

I have 2 systems.

My CD Player, 2 CD Recorders, Blu Ray Player, DVD Player, cheap unbranded DAC and more expensive 10 times the cost of the cheap DAC all sound indistinguishable to me. The on paper specs for them are all very, VERY similar.

My two current amplifiers sound the same under the same listening conditions.

My 3 pairs of headphones all sound very different, my current 2 pairs of speakers sound very different.

In my experience comparing the specs tells you a lot of the story. Loudspeakers are by far the biggest variable along with acoustics of the listening environment. The electronics in this day and age are more than capeable of delivering high fidelity without spending big bucks.

Also electronic components are incredibly cheap. It is not expensive to build any audio circuit capeable of high fidelity.

I've had fairly similar experiences with HiFi.

so would you choose clothes, a car, a wife in the same way?

 

[Vladimir]

I agree with Vladimir to a point about not listening. I did not audition a single piece of any of my current equipment and I'm happy with all of it.

I always read the technical data for a product and then I use a selection of reviews from actual people who have bought the product to help make my final judgements. I've always found listening to kit in the shop totally pointless, I've never been impressed by any Hi Fi in a dealers in my life. Hi Fi has always performed way better at home for me.

Back in the 90's when I was at my peak of buying Hi Fi and making upgrades I used to read What Hi Fi a lot as well as Hi Fi Choice. I often found their opinions very contradicting, which made no sence to me and alarm bells started to ring.

I spent a bit of time auditioning speakers in proper dem rooms and I can remember being throughly dissapointed with what I was hearing. The same speakers at home always sounded so much better for whatever reason. I spent quite a bit of time with different products in different price ranges expecting to hear huge differences if the reviews were anything to go by and I only ever heard subtleties, not night and day changes as the press made out.

Over time I actually came to realise that a lot of Hi Fi talk is really BS. If a product measures well which is the only real proof for how it performs, then it must sound good. I think it is very easy to choose electronics based on specs. Speakers are the most likely thing to get wrong and in my personal experience loudspeaker and room interaction is the single most important thing in Hi Fi to get right. That really should be top priority over everything else.

If you want to audition anything it should be the speakers and that should be in the room you want to use them in. Auditioning several products in a shop is totally pointless as there are so many variables to consider that it is not even remotely close to an accurate assessment. I do honestly believe that there is no need at all to audition CD Players, Amps or DAC's in a Hi Fi store. The technical specs tell you what you need to know. There may be exceptions with certain amp and speaker combinations, but like I said trying speakers out in the environment and system which they are to be used is the solution there.

I have 2 systems.

My CD Player, 2 CD Recorders, Blu Ray Player, DVD Player, cheap unbranded DAC and more expensive 10 times the cost of the cheap DAC all sound indistinguishable to me. The on paper specs for them are all very, VERY similar.

My two current amplifiers sound the same under the same listening conditions.

My 3 pairs of headphones all sound very different, my current 2 pairs of speakers sound very different.

In my experience comparing the specs tells you a lot of the story. Loudspeakers are by far the biggest variable along with acoustics of the listening environment. The electronics in this day and age are more than capeable of delivering high fidelity without spending big bucks.

Also electronic components are incredibly cheap. It is not expensive to build any audio circuit capeable of high fidelity.

I've had fairly similar experiences with HiFi.

so would you choose clothes, a car, a wife in the same way?

Seen the movie Moneyball?

 

[tonky]

about hifi equipment?

 

[Ajani]

I agree with Vladimir to a point about not listening. I did not audition a single piece of any of my current equipment and I'm happy with all of it.

I always read the technical data for a product and then I use a selection of reviews from actual people who have bought the product to help make my final judgements. I've always found listening to kit in the shop totally pointless, I've never been impressed by any Hi Fi in a dealers in my life. Hi Fi has always performed way better at home for me.

Back in the 90's when I was at my peak of buying Hi Fi and making upgrades I used to read What Hi Fi a lot as well as Hi Fi Choice. I often found their opinions very contradicting, which made no sence to me and alarm bells started to ring.

I spent a bit of time auditioning speakers in proper dem rooms and I can remember being throughly dissapointed with what I was hearing. The same speakers at home always sounded so much better for whatever reason. I spent quite a bit of time with different products in different price ranges expecting to hear huge differences if the reviews were anything to go by and I only ever heard subtleties, not night and day changes as the press made out.

Over time I actually came to realise that a lot of Hi Fi talk is really BS. If a product measures well which is the only real proof for how it performs, then it must sound good. I think it is very easy to choose electronics based on specs. Speakers are the most likely thing to get wrong and in my personal experience loudspeaker and room interaction is the single most important thing in Hi Fi to get right. That really should be top priority over everything else.

If you want to audition anything it should be the speakers and that should be in the room you want to use them in. Auditioning several products in a shop is totally pointless as there are so many variables to consider that it is not even remotely close to an accurate assessment. I do honestly believe that there is no need at all to audition CD Players, Amps or DAC's in a Hi Fi store. The technical specs tell you what you need to know. There may be exceptions with certain amp and speaker combinations, but like I said trying speakers out in the environment and system which they are to be used is the solution there.

I have 2 systems.

My CD Player, 2 CD Recorders, Blu Ray Player, DVD Player, cheap unbranded DAC and more expensive 10 times the cost of the cheap DAC all sound indistinguishable to me. The on paper specs for them are all very, VERY similar.

My two current amplifiers sound the same under the same listening conditions.

My 3 pairs of headphones all sound very different, my current 2 pairs of speakers sound very different.

In my experience comparing the specs tells you a lot of the story. Loudspeakers are by far the biggest variable along with acoustics of the listening environment. The electronics in this day and age are more than capeable of delivering high fidelity without spending big bucks.

Also electronic components are incredibly cheap. It is not expensive to build any audio circuit capeable of high fidelity.

I've had fairly similar experiences with HiFi.

so would you choose clothes, a car, a wife in the same way?

How would you propose that I do that? Since I audition speakers and use measurements etc for the electronics.

Clothes are bought primarily for aesthetic appeal, so specs aren't critical. I don't buy cars because they are "fun to drive", I buy them for practicality (I have an older Nissan Xtrail, that I plan to replace with a Subaru Forester - so that should give you some perspective). I won't even discuss a wife, as I don't like the suggestion of lumping my wife into the same category as clothes and electronics.

 

[tonky]

are plain crazy - nothing to do with hifi - just as crazy as buying expensive equipment without auditioning it. But I would test drive a car before buying it - and probably date a person a few times before marrying her. (Unless she was filthy rich!!)

tonky

 

[Ajani]

are plain crazy - nothing to do with hifi - just as crazy as buying expensive equipment without auditioning it. But I would test drive a car before buying it - and probably date a person a few times before marrying her. (Unless she was filthy rich!!)

tonky

Who's talking about buying expensive equipment? The speakers might be relatively expensive, but I don't see the need to spend large amounts on electronics and cables.

 

[matt49]

I don't buy cars because they are "fun to drive", I buy them for practicality (I have an older Nissan Xtrail, that I plan to replace with a Subaru Forester - so that should give you some perspective).

As it happens, the older models of the Forester (1st and 2nd gen, up to 2008) were great fun to drive, especially the turbo models, as well as being thoroughly practical. The 2nd gen turbo we had for several years was the most fun I've ever had in a (relatively) sensible family car (though it has to be said I'm not really a car person). They also have a great reputation for reliability, as I'm sure you know, so a pre-2008 model is a great buy.

 

[manicm]

I agree with Vladimir to a point about not listening. I did not audition a single piece of any of my current equipment and I'm happy with all of it.?

I always read the technical data for a product and then I use a selection of reviews from actual people who have bought the product to help make my final judgements. I've always found listening to kit in the shop totally pointless, I've never been impressed by any Hi Fi in a dealers in my life. Hi Fi has always performed way better at home for me.

Back in the 90's when I was at my peak of buying Hi Fi and making upgrades I used to read What Hi Fi a lot as well as Hi Fi Choice. I often found their opinions very contradicting, which made no sence to me and alarm bells started to ring.?

I spent a bit of time auditioning speakers in proper dem rooms and I can remember being throughly dissapointed with what I was hearing. The same speakers at home always sounded so much better for whatever reason. I spent quite a bit of time with different products in different price ranges expecting to hear huge differences if the reviews were anything to go by and I only ever heard subtleties, not night and day changes as the press made out.?

Over time I actually came to realise that a lot of Hi Fi talk is really BS. If a product measures well which is the only real proof for how it performs, then it must sound good. I think it is very easy to choose electronics based on specs. Speakers are the most likely thing to get wrong and in my personal experience loudspeaker and room interaction is the single most important thing in Hi Fi to get right. That really should be top priority over everything else.

If you want to audition anything it should be the speakers and that should be in the room you want to use them in. Auditioning several products in a shop is totally pointless as there are so many variables to consider that it is not even remotely close to an accurate assessment. I do honestly believe that there is no need at all to audition CD Players, Amps or DAC's in a Hi Fi store. The technical specs tell you what you need to know. There may be exceptions with certain amp and speaker combinations, but like I said trying speakers out in the environment and system which they are to be used is the solution there.?

I have 2 systems.

My CD Player, 2 CD Recorders, Blu Ray Player, DVD Player, cheap unbranded DAC and more expensive 10 times the cost of the cheap DAC all sound indistinguishable to me. The on paper specs for them are all very, VERY similar.

My two current amplifiers sound the same under the same listening conditions.?

My 3 pairs of headphones all sound very different, my current 2 pairs of speakers sound very different.?

In my experience comparing the specs tells you a lot of the story. Loudspeakers are by far the biggest variable along with acoustics of the listening environment. The electronics in this day and age are more than capeable of delivering high fidelity without spending big bucks.?

Also electronic components are incredibly cheap. It is not expensive to build any audio circuit capeable of high fidelity.?

I've had fairly similar experiences with HiFi.?

so would you choose clothes, a car, a wife in the same way?

How would you propose that I do that? Since I audition speakers and use measurements etc for the electronics.?

Clothes are bought primarily for aesthetic appeal, so specs aren't critical. I don't buy cars because they are "fun to drive", I buy them for practicality (I have an older Nissan Xtrail, that I plan to replace with a Subaru Forester - so that should give you some perspective). I won't even discuss a wife, as I don't like the suggestion of lumping my wife into the same category as clothes and electronics.

So purchasing hifi should be purely a scientific experience, even though its use is for emotion, joy and pleasure?

To my mind its not that different to buying a nice shoe - good fit, finish, comfort, and yes aesthetics.

 

[Vladimir]

I agree with Vladimir to a point about not listening. I did not audition a single piece of any of my current equipment and I'm happy with all of it.

I always read the technical data for a product and then I use a selection of reviews from actual people who have bought the product to help make my final judgements. I've always found listening to kit in the shop totally pointless, I've never been impressed by any Hi Fi in a dealers in my life. Hi Fi has always performed way better at home for me.

Back in the 90's when I was at my peak of buying Hi Fi and making upgrades I used to read What Hi Fi a lot as well as Hi Fi Choice. I often found their opinions very contradicting, which made no sence to me and alarm bells started to ring.

I spent a bit of time auditioning speakers in proper dem rooms and I can remember being throughly dissapointed with what I was hearing. The same speakers at home always sounded so much better for whatever reason. I spent quite a bit of time with different products in different price ranges expecting to hear huge differences if the reviews were anything to go by and I only ever heard subtleties, not night and day changes as the press made out.

Over time I actually came to realise that a lot of Hi Fi talk is really BS. If a product measures well which is the only real proof for how it performs, then it must sound good. I think it is very easy to choose electronics based on specs. Speakers are the most likely thing to get wrong and in my personal experience loudspeaker and room interaction is the single most important thing in Hi Fi to get right. That really should be top priority over everything else.

If you want to audition anything it should be the speakers and that should be in the room you want to use them in. Auditioning several products in a shop is totally pointless as there are so many variables to consider that it is not even remotely close to an accurate assessment. I do honestly believe that there is no need at all to audition CD Players, Amps or DAC's in a Hi Fi store. The technical specs tell you what you need to know. There may be exceptions with certain amp and speaker combinations, but like I said trying speakers out in the environment and system which they are to be used is the solution there.

I have 2 systems.

My CD Player, 2 CD Recorders, Blu Ray Player, DVD Player, cheap unbranded DAC and more expensive 10 times the cost of the cheap DAC all sound indistinguishable to me. The on paper specs for them are all very, VERY similar.

My two current amplifiers sound the same under the same listening conditions.

My 3 pairs of headphones all sound very different, my current 2 pairs of speakers sound very different.

In my experience comparing the specs tells you a lot of the story. Loudspeakers are by far the biggest variable along with acoustics of the listening environment. The electronics in this day and age are more than capeable of delivering high fidelity without spending big bucks.

Also electronic components are incredibly cheap. It is not expensive to build any audio circuit capeable of high fidelity.

I've had fairly similar experiences with HiFi.

so would you choose clothes, a car, a wife in the same way?

How would you propose that I do that? Since I audition speakers and use measurements etc for the electronics.

Clothes are bought primarily for aesthetic appeal, so specs aren't critical. I don't buy cars because they are "fun to drive", I buy them for practicality (I have an older Nissan Xtrail, that I plan to replace with a Subaru Forester - so that should give you some perspective). I won't even discuss a wife, as I don't like the suggestion of lumping my wife into the same category as clothes and electronics.

So purchasing hifi should be purely a scientific experience, even though its use is for emotion, joy and pleasure?

To my mind its not that different to buying a nice shoe - good fit, finish, comfort, and yes aesthetics.

Being an audiophile should be an intellectual experience. Listening to music should be an emotional experience.

 

[Ajani]

I agree with Vladimir to a point about not listening. I did not audition a single piece of any of my current equipment and I'm happy with all of it.

I always read the technical data for a product and then I use a selection of reviews from actual people who have bought the product to help make my final judgements. I've always found listening to kit in the shop totally pointless, I've never been impressed by any Hi Fi in a dealers in my life. Hi Fi has always performed way better at home for me.

Back in the 90's when I was at my peak of buying Hi Fi and making upgrades I used to read What Hi Fi a lot as well as Hi Fi Choice. I often found their opinions very contradicting, which made no sence to me and alarm bells started to ring.

I spent a bit of time auditioning speakers in proper dem rooms and I can remember being throughly dissapointed with what I was hearing. The same speakers at home always sounded so much better for whatever reason. I spent quite a bit of time with different products in different price ranges expecting to hear huge differences if the reviews were anything to go by and I only ever heard subtleties, not night and day changes as the press made out.

Over time I actually came to realise that a lot of Hi Fi talk is really BS. If a product measures well which is the only real proof for how it performs, then it must sound good. I think it is very easy to choose electronics based on specs. Speakers are the most likely thing to get wrong and in my personal experience loudspeaker and room interaction is the single most important thing in Hi Fi to get right. That really should be top priority over everything else.

If you want to audition anything it should be the speakers and that should be in the room you want to use them in. Auditioning several products in a shop is totally pointless as there are so many variables to consider that it is not even remotely close to an accurate assessment. I do honestly believe that there is no need at all to audition CD Players, Amps or DAC's in a Hi Fi store. The technical specs tell you what you need to know. There may be exceptions with certain amp and speaker combinations, but like I said trying speakers out in the environment and system which they are to be used is the solution there.

I have 2 systems.

My CD Player, 2 CD Recorders, Blu Ray Player, DVD Player, cheap unbranded DAC and more expensive 10 times the cost of the cheap DAC all sound indistinguishable to me. The on paper specs for them are all very, VERY similar.

My two current amplifiers sound the same under the same listening conditions.

My 3 pairs of headphones all sound very different, my current 2 pairs of speakers sound very different.

In my experience comparing the specs tells you a lot of the story. Loudspeakers are by far the biggest variable along with acoustics of the listening environment. The electronics in this day and age are more than capeable of delivering high fidelity without spending big bucks.

Also electronic components are incredibly cheap. It is not expensive to build any audio circuit capeable of high fidelity.

I've had fairly similar experiences with HiFi.

so would you choose clothes, a car, a wife in the same way?

How would you propose that I do that? Since I audition speakers and use measurements etc for the electronics.

Clothes are bought primarily for aesthetic appeal, so specs aren't critical. I don't buy cars because they are "fun to drive", I buy them for practicality (I have an older Nissan Xtrail, that I plan to replace with a Subaru Forester - so that should give you some perspective). I won't even discuss a wife, as I don't like the suggestion of lumping my wife into the same category as clothes and electronics.

So purchasing hifi should be purely a scientific experience, even though its use is for emotion, joy and pleasure?

To my mind its not that different to buying a nice shoe - good fit, finish, comfort, and yes aesthetics.

Fair enough. If you buy solely for pleasure and it's not about the best sound quality/accuracy, then there would be no need to focus too heavily on the science.

Aesthetics, features, build quality all matter to me. However, there are many products that fit that bill and also measure well. So I just choose to rule out the products that don't measure well.

 

[manicm]

I agree with Vladimir to a point about not listening. I did not audition a single piece of any of my current equipment and I'm happy with all of it.?

I always read the technical data for a product and then I use a selection of reviews from actual people who have bought the product to help make my final judgements. I've always found listening to kit in the shop totally pointless, I've never been impressed by any Hi Fi in a dealers in my life. Hi Fi has always performed way better at home for me.

Back in the 90's when I was at my peak of buying Hi Fi and making upgrades I used to read What Hi Fi a lot as well as Hi Fi Choice. I often found their opinions very contradicting, which made no sence to me and alarm bells started to ring.?

I spent a bit of time auditioning speakers in proper dem rooms and I can remember being throughly dissapointed with what I was hearing. The same speakers at home always sounded so much better for whatever reason. I spent quite a bit of time with different products in different price ranges expecting to hear huge differences if the reviews were anything to go by and I only ever heard subtleties, not night and day changes as the press made out.?

Over time I actually came to realise that a lot of Hi Fi talk is really BS. If a product measures well which is the only real proof for how it performs, then it must sound good. I think it is very easy to choose electronics based on specs. Speakers are the most likely thing to get wrong and in my personal experience loudspeaker and room interaction is the single most important thing in Hi Fi to get right. That really should be top priority over everything else.

If you want to audition anything it should be the speakers and that should be in the room you want to use them in. Auditioning several products in a shop is totally pointless as there are so many variables to consider that it is not even remotely close to an accurate assessment. I do honestly believe that there is no need at all to audition CD Players, Amps or DAC's in a Hi Fi store. The technical specs tell you what you need to know. There may be exceptions with certain amp and speaker combinations, but like I said trying speakers out in the environment and system which they are to be used is the solution there.?

I have 2 systems.

My CD Player, 2 CD Recorders, Blu Ray Player, DVD Player, cheap unbranded DAC and more expensive 10 times the cost of the cheap DAC all sound indistinguishable to me. The on paper specs for them are all very, VERY similar.

My two current amplifiers sound the same under the same listening conditions.?

My 3 pairs of headphones all sound very different, my current 2 pairs of speakers sound very different.?

In my experience comparing the specs tells you a lot of the story. Loudspeakers are by far the biggest variable along with acoustics of the listening environment. The electronics in this day and age are more than capeable of delivering high fidelity without spending big bucks.?

Also electronic components are incredibly cheap. It is not expensive to build any audio circuit capeable of high fidelity.?

I've had fairly similar experiences with HiFi.?

so would you choose clothes, a car, a wife in the same way?

How would you propose that I do that? Since I audition speakers and use measurements etc for the electronics.?

Clothes are bought primarily for aesthetic appeal, so specs aren't critical. I don't buy cars because they are "fun to drive", I buy them for practicality (I have an older Nissan Xtrail, that I plan to replace with a Subaru Forester - so that should give you some perspective). I won't even discuss a wife, as I don't like the suggestion of lumping my wife into the same category as clothes and electronics.

So purchasing hifi should be purely a scientific experience, even though its use is for emotion, joy and pleasure?

To my mind its not that different to buying a nice shoe - good fit, finish, comfort, and yes aesthetics.

Being an audiophile should be an intellectual experience. Listening to music should be an emotional experience.

That's a very subjective opinion, so all audiophiles would take no pleasure in purchasing hifi, even after all evaluations etc??

That's a very pessimistic and myopic view of the world you have. If that were Utopia it be brutally boring.

And by the way you're the first person I've ever come across to equate audiophiles with intellectualism. In all the rags I've read like Hifi News or Hifi World etc...

 

[MeanandGreen]

so would you choose clothes, a car, a wife in the same way?

Clothes have to fit, a car needs to match your personal criteria, a drivers car? Practical? Economical? Does it look apealling etc... Not all cars drive in the same way. A wife is a human being with a personality and a mind of their own, a mutual attraction and respect, nothing like going out and buying a material item.

Buying a CD Player or whatever is nothing like any of the above. I agree that your choices can be influenced by build quality, functionality/facilities or even looks. But reading the technical spec sheet from one to another is very much a muchness. Listening to one and then another in a hifi shop is like comparing glasses of water IMO.

 

[Frank Harvey]

So purchasing hifi should be purely a scientific experience, even though its use is for emotion, joy and pleasure?

If that was the case, it'd kill off what's left of the hi-fi industry. People (in general) don't want to know about sciencey stuff - they want to choose something that either looks good in their living room, sounds good to them, or both. I get about three people per year asking the frequency response of a speaker, which of course is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. And I'm guessing they're only asking to either try and look like they know what they're talking about, or because they think it is something they're supposed to ask. Everyone else just wants to listen.

 

[Ajani]

I don't buy cars because they are "fun to drive", I buy them for practicality (I have an older Nissan Xtrail, that I plan to replace with a Subaru Forester - so that should give you some perspective).

As it happens, the older models of the Forester (1st and 2nd gen, up to 2008) were great fun to drive, especially the turbo models, as well as being thoroughly practical. The 2nd gen turbo we had for several years was the most fun I've ever had in a (relatively) sensible family car (though it has to be said I'm not really a car person). They also have a great reputation for reliability, as I'm sure you know, so a pre-2008 model is a great buy.

Oh yeah. Reliability is one of the key factors for me. Fun to drive is nice, but not necessary. However, easy to drive matters.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

So purchasing hifi should be purely a scientific experience, even though its use is for emotion, joy and pleasure?

If that was the case, it'd kill off what's left of the hi-fi industry. People (in general) don't want to know about sciencey stuff - they want to choose something that either looks good in their living room, sounds good to them, or both. I get about three people per year asking the frequency response of a speaker, which of course is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. And I'm guessing they're only asking to either try and look like they know what they're talking about, or because they think it is something they're supposed to ask. Everyone else just wants to listen.

and that is the best way to listen and whats good to my ears i am not brains of britain and i do not want to be i just want to buy what sounds good too me so i can enjoy my music do not get me wrong i do want to learn more but not to the point were all your looking at is sciencey stuff all the time