HiFi - Facts, Fiction and Conjecture

[manicm]

A gourmet is someone who obsesses how food tastes, not so much about its nutritional value or impact on the metabolism. A nutritionist obsesses about how healthy food is, not so much how it tastes. Audiophiles are like people who obsess about eating healthy but choose food based on taste and not through info derived from lab tests.

Bad sound won't cause cancer. Try a better analogy, as I said probably 90% on consumers are doing sighted testing when purchasing.

 

[tonky]

I licked my amplifier - it taste so good i bought it

 

[Blacksabbath25]

A good salesman will make sure you spend your money if you left it upto him as they ask you what budget you have in mind or make sure you go over your budget or get you to have credit so he can get more money from the finance company as commission he is not interested in you only your money . You have to be the boss when buying Hifi not them it's your ears that make the decision . In my opinion all amps sound different just like any car engine sounds different if every amp was the same then I would buy a cheap and **** amp for £50 what's the point in Hifi if it's all the same sorry what's the point in this I am not a sheep I trust my ears not the salesman's ears

 

[CnoEvil]

Is it just me, or is there even more "naval gazing" on here than usual?

 

[davedotco]

I licked my amplifier - it taste so good i bought it

Well, more sensible than the way most people choose their amplifiers anyway.

Once upon a time many hi-fi dealers and the people who staffed them were enthusiasts as much as as salesmen and, surprisingly, many gave very good and unbiased advice. They backed this up with proper comparative demonstrations to show what worked and what did not.

The customers ended up with good, well chosen and matched systems that were set up to work well in their homes.

 

[chebby]

I can't audition in shops any more. I get mildly nauseous and get headaches and end up feeling confused and feeling like i'm having to breath through cotton wool. Sooner-or-later I have to make my excuses and go to the street outside to breathe properly.

This started some eight years ago. It's improved a bit recently. I can now bear to be in the local hi-fi shop (nice place and great staff), so long as I don't have to audition any equipment.

This never happens at home or when listening to music at friend's homes. Just my local hi-fi shop.

So I don't listen before getting the kit home either. I bought my amplifier on the understanding I could return it if was faulty or I didn't like it.

My loudspeakers were ordered via telephone calls and emails after lots of 'research' on the internet

It all works together really well and I can't imagine much worse ways of choosing than visiting lots of shops to compare all the various combinations of suitable equipment that I could afford.

Obviously some people love this pursuit (auditioning equipment in shops) and even do it for pleasure without any purchase in mind.

So yeah, buying before listening is something I do now.

 

[matt49]

Is it just me, or is there even more "naval gazing" on here than usual?

Cno, it's "navel gazing" -- unless you do actually mean checking out sailors.

 

[tonky]

The thought of spending money (on anything!) makes me light headed and nauseous all the time! A dealer's auditioning room isn't ideal at all. - The home audition is mandatory in my humble opinion. - Only then might I lick it to see if I like the taste too!

tonky

 

[Vladimir]

 

[tonky]

or a bull sh@@@@@g!

 

[CnoEvil]

Is it just me, or is there even more "naval gazing" on here than usual?

Cno, it's "navel gazing" -- unless you do actually mean checking out sailors.

So it is...only excuse is a frazzling day at work, as I try and get everything in order before I go skiing on Sat (way-hey).

 

[matt49]

So it is...only excuse is a frazzling day at work, as I try and get everything in order before I go skiing on Sat (way-hey).

I hope you get some good snow, Sir. Over the New Year we had absolutely no skiing at all.

 

[Native_bon]

Is it usefull? Clicky

Also: Clicky

So we can safely say all hifi equipment that measure well are the best sounding? Lets say that is the case. It then becomes a problem if people do not have the same hearing ability. Its as simple as that. Some may hear some frequencies better than others. Some may even have bad hearing all together. So could also conclude what does not measure well may sound good to some.

Now having said that I still believe measurements should determine the final outcome. Cause once human is involved like one of the videos mentioned there are just too many variables.

Some many things in play:

1 How honest is the person or people involved

2 How good is their hearing ability & exposure to sound.

3 How you have always listened to sound will influence your decision

4Things said for the sake of pride of ownership

5 Marketing gimmicks.

6 Brand name and expectation biases

7 Hifi not set up properly

8 No standards to conform to

9 There can never be an absolute to anything or God's eye view to anything.

 

[CnoEvil]

So it is...only excuse is a frazzling day at work, as I try and get everything in order before I go skiing on Sat (way-hey).

I hope you get some good snow, Sir. Over the New Year we had absolutely no skiing at all.

That was rotten and why I will always go to the like of Espace Killy, if going early in the season.

The problem now, is that I need it to stop snowing....0.5m fallen so far, with nearly 3m of continuous snow forecast over the next 9 days! I'm happy skiing in a blizzard, but my sons much less so (I have a skiing related thread called "Any skiers out there?", which now gets little traffic).

Apologies to OP for off piste diversion.

 

[matt49]

So it is...only excuse is a frazzling day at work, as I try and get everything in order before I go skiing on Sat (way-hey).

I hope you get some good snow, Sir. Over the New Year we had absolutely no skiing at all.

That was rotten [...].

Serves us right for going to Jamaica.

 

[Vladimir]

Is it usefull? Clicky

Also: Clicky

So we can safely say all hifi equipment that measure well are the best sounding?

Yes. Proven with scientific research and DBT in world state of the art testing facilities. People prefer neutral and natural. Unfortunately if you want a copy of Dr. Toole's paper on this from 1986 you have to subscribe to the AES library. This paper should be open to the public for free downloads IMO.

Let's say that you are superhuman and impervious to bias from price, brand, aesthetics etc. You still have the problem of bad recordings and this is everyone's biggest issue. Many try to ameliorate this with placebo or just going down the fidelity scale with sub-par components by today's tech capabilities. I know that a good mastering LP on a decent TT sounds better than a horrific mastering on a CD. But that is not the ideal solution. Digital + good recording and mastering = sonic excellence equivalent of bathing naked with 100 virgins in the Valhalla. I seriously think Steely Dan would have zero fans today if they had poor sound.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I licked my amplifier - it taste so good i bought it

*biggrin*

I might start using that approach in demos - it's no crazier than some posts in this thread

 

[Frank Harvey]

Once upon a time many hi-fi dealers and the people who staffed them were enthusiasts as much as as salesmen and, surprisingly, many gave very good and unbiased advice. They backed this up with proper comparative demonstrations to show what worked and what did not.

The customers ended up with good, well chosen and matched systems that were set up to work well in their homes.

This still happens. Occasionally.

 

[Ajani]

Apologies to OP for off piste diversion.

 

[tonky]

I have found over the last few of years that I have gone into a dealer's shop with a short list of what I want to hear. I am often left to listen by myself for a while. I receive the odd interruption and some supportive advice - questions answered etc ( everything non-pushy). Then I leave with item for a home demo (a week usually). Unless I know said item is not for me.

It's a nice way of doing things I find tonky

 

[Frank Harvey]

A good salesman will make sure you spend your money if you left it upto him as they ask you what budget you have in mind or make sure you go over your budget or get you to have credit so he can get more money from the finance company as commission he is not interested in you only your money .

Here are the dilemmas...

Someone walks in and asks for a CD player. The "salesman" says "we have a lovely (insert name here) for £150". They are offended, because their system is a £25,000 Linn system. They think you're not high end enough, and never return.

Someone walks in and asks for a CD player. The "salesman" says "we have a lovely (insert name here) for £6,000". They are offended, because their system was £800 when they bought it back in 1998. They think you're a snobby high end store, and never return.

Someone walks in and asks for a CD player. The "salesman" says "certainly, what's your budget?". They reply, "I was looking to spend around £600". "We have a lovely (insert name here) for £600 which will be about the best option within your budget". They have a listen, like it, buy it, everyone's happy.

Someone walks in and asks for a CD player. The "salesman" says "certainly, what's your budget?". They reply, "I was looking to spend around £600". "We have several around the £600 price point that you can sit down, have a listen to, and choose which one you prefer". Demo happens, they choose their preferred option, everyone's happy.

Someone walks in and asks for a CD player. The "salesman" says "certainly, what's your budget?". They reply, "I was looking to spend around £600". "We have several around the £600 price point that you can sit down, have a listen to, and choose which one you prefer". Demo happens, they choose their preferred option. They ask "what if I spend a little more, would I get an appreciable difference? Where is the next step up in sound quality?". More demo happens, customer either buys their original choice or the better one. Everyone's happy.

Someone walks in and asks for a CD player. The "salesman" says "certainly, what's your budget?". They reply, "I was looking to spend around £600". "We have several around the £600 price point that you can sit down, have a listen to, and choose which one you prefer". Demo happens, they choose their preferred option, where upon the salesman reveals that their preferred option is actually £1,400. They think you're a sneaky barsteward, they never return.

Someone walks in and asks for a CD player. The "salesman" says "certainly, what's your budget?". They reply, "I was looking to spend around £600". "We have several around the £600 price point that you can sit down, have a listen to, and choose which one you prefer". Demo happens, they choose their preferred option, where upon the salesman reveals that their preferred option is actually £1,400. Customer is thankful for being shown what he would've missed out on. Everyone's really happy. (No, doesn't happen).

Someone walks in and asks for a CD player. The "salesman" says "certainly, what's your budget?". They reply, "I was looking to spend around £600". "We have several around the £600 price point that you can sit down, have a listen to, and choose which one you prefer". Demo happens, they choose their preferred option, where upon the salesman reveals that their preferred option is actually £1,400. Customer thinks the cheaper option was better. Salesman says that Mr. Sledgehammer disagrees. Salesman is momentarily happy, customer not so. Never returns.

I can think of more if you like.

I trust my ears not the salesman's ears

And so you should.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Is dead

 

[davedotco]

Actually you have missed out on possibly the most common outcome of all....

Someone walks in and asks for a CD player. The "salesman" says "certainly, what's your budget?". They reply, "I was looking to spend around £600". "We have several around the £600 price point that you can sit down, have a listen to, and choose which one you prefer". Demo happens, they choose their preferred option, which happens to be a player he was not considering.

Having been shown the superiority of the player chosen, the customer is 'confused' because it is clearly better than the Harry Pancake Mk3 Improved that has just had the great reviews and that he expected to buy. Naturally the customer asks what is going on, so you explain that sometimes the best players do not get the best reviews and it is best to listen.

The customer does not trust his own hearing, or worse, thinks you are somehow 'pulling a fast one' so leaves, buying the Harry Pancake Mk3 Improved on the internet for a discount.

Epilogue. A month or so later the same customer returns, "I don't think I am getting the best results from my Harry Pancake Mk3 Improved in my system, do you think a new interconnect will help?"

 

[Gazzip]

Actually you have missed out on possibly the most common outcome of all....

Someone walks in and asks for a CD player. The "salesman" says "certainly, what's your budget?". They reply, "I was looking to spend around £600". "We have several around the £600 price point that you can sit down, have a listen to, and choose which one you prefer". Demo happens, they choose their preferred option, which happens to be a player he was not considering.

Having been shown the superiority of the player chosen, the customer is 'confused' because it is clearly better than the Harry Pancake Mk3 Improved that has just had the great reviews and that he expected to buy. Naturally the customer asks what is going on, so you explain that sometimes the best players do not get the best reviews and it is best to listen.

The customer does not trust his own hearing, or worse, thinks you are somehow 'pulling a fast one' so leaves, buying the Harry Pancake Mk3 Improved on the internet for a discount.

Epilogue. A month or so later the same customer returns, "I don't think I am getting the best results from my Harry Pancake Mk3 Improved in my system, do you think a new interconnect will help?"

On the Mk3 an improved power cord will yield better results than a new interconnect.

The Mk2 was altogether better.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

when you go to richer sounds store you book your demo time which is only 1 hour so in that time you keep looking at your watch to see what time you have left you say what your looking for the salesman gets the stuff out and half the stuff is not run in like speakers but while your sitting there you feel pushed i start sweeting and my mind goes tight trying to see if the stuff i am looking at is any good to buy but in 1 hour which is not much time . the good thing with richer sounds is the salesman got a load of speakers out and did not tell me the price of any of them just sit there and listen for me i can tell if something does not sound right to my ears right away this was before i got my big dali floorstanding speakers i went in there looking at book shelf and come out with floorstanding speakers instead but glad i did buy what i got now as it was the right choice i made and then he told me the prices of the book shelf speakers at the end of the demo and some of them were over £1000 but to me they sounded rubbish but some where £400 a pair but what the demo showed me was book shelf speakers would not cut it for me that in my mine was a good demo done even when i had i hour for a demo .