HiFi - Facts, Fiction and Conjecture

[chebby]

Actually you have missed out on possibly the most common outcome of all....

Someone walks in and asks for a CD player. The "salesman" says "certainly, what's your budget?". They reply, "I was looking to spend around £600". "We have several around the £600 price point that you can sit down, have a listen to, and choose which one you prefer". Demo happens, they choose their preferred option, which happens to be a player he was not considering.

Having been shown the superiority of the player chosen, the customer is 'confused' because it is clearly better than the Harry Pancake Mk3 Improved that has just had the great reviews and that he expected to buy. Naturally the customer asks what is going on, so you explain that sometimes the best players do not get the best reviews and it is best to listen.

The customer does not trust his own hearing, or worse, thinks you are somehow 'pulling a fast one' so leaves, buying the Harry Pancake Mk3 Improved on the internet for a discount.

Epilogue. A month or so later the same customer returns, "I don't think I am getting the best results from my Harry Pancake Mk3 Improved in my system, do you think a new interconnect will help?"

Another scenario:- Potential £600 CD player customer doesn't walk in because he was treated like a pr##k by the snooty shop assistant the last time he visited!

Epilogue. A month or so later the chain decide to close that branch because it's sales have inexplicably tailed off so much lately.

 

[davedotco]

Actually you have missed out on possibly the most common outcome of all....

Someone walks in and asks for a CD player. The "salesman" says "certainly, what's your budget?". They reply, "I was looking to spend around £600". "We have several around the £600 price point that you can sit down, have a listen to, and choose which one you prefer". Demo happens, they choose their preferred option, which happens to be a player he was not considering.

Having been shown the superiority of the player chosen, the customer is 'confused' because it is clearly better than the Harry Pancake Mk3 Improved that has just had the great reviews and that he expected to buy. Naturally the customer asks what is going on, so you explain that sometimes the best players do not get the best reviews and it is best to listen.

The customer does not trust his own hearing, or worse, thinks you are somehow 'pulling a fast one' so leaves, buying the Harry Pancake Mk3 Improved on the internet for a discount.

Epilogue. A month or so later the same customer returns, "I don't think I am getting the best results from my Harry Pancake Mk3 Improved in my system, do you think a new interconnect will help?"

Another scenario:- Potential £600 CD player customer doesn't walk in because he was treated like a pr##k by the snooty shop assistant the last time he visited!

Epilogue. A month or so later the chain decide to close that branch because it's sales have inexplicably tailed off so much lately.

In what way was the assistant 'snooty' in the example I gave?

How did he treat rhe customer like a pr!ck?

By giving unbiased advice and letting him decide on the best player by listening?

Pray tell.

 

[chebby]

Actually you have missed out on possibly the most common outcome of all....

Someone walks in and asks for a CD player. The "salesman" says "certainly, what's your budget?". They reply, "I was looking to spend around £600". "We have several around the £600 price point that you can sit down, have a listen to, and choose which one you prefer". Demo happens, they choose their preferred option, which happens to be a player he was not considering.

Having been shown the superiority of the player chosen, the customer is 'confused' because it is clearly better than the Harry Pancake Mk3 Improved that has just had the great reviews and that he expected to buy. Naturally the customer asks what is going on, so you explain that sometimes the best players do not get the best reviews and it is best to listen.

The customer does not trust his own hearing, or worse, thinks you are somehow 'pulling a fast one' so leaves, buying the Harry Pancake Mk3 Improved on the internet for a discount.

Epilogue. A month or so later the same customer returns, "I don't think I am getting the best results from my Harry Pancake Mk3 Improved in my system, do you think a new interconnect will help?"

Another scenario:- Potential £600 CD player customer doesn't walk in because he was treated like a pr##k by the snooty shop assistant the last time he visited!

Epilogue. A month or so later the chain decide to close that branch because it's sales have inexplicably tailed off so much lately.

In what way was the assistant 'snooty' in the example I gave?

How did he treat rhe customer like a pr!ck?

By giving unbiased advice and letting him decide on the best player by listening?

Pray tell.

Because my 'hypothetical' hi-fi shop assistant isn't necessarily the same as yours.

His prevalance in the industry - at one time - was so well-known they even lampooned him in a famous hi-fi shop comedy sketch that millions of people recognised ...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TxQqWSnsHoA

 

[davedotco]

Actually you have missed out on possibly the most common outcome of all....

Someone walks in and asks for a CD player. The "salesman" says "certainly, what's your budget?". They reply, "I was looking to spend around £600". "We have several around the £600 price point that you can sit down, have a listen to, and choose which one you prefer". Demo happens, they choose their preferred option, which happens to be a player he was not considering.

Having been shown the superiority of the player chosen, the customer is 'confused' because it is clearly better than the Harry Pancake Mk3 Improved that has just had the great reviews and that he expected to buy. Naturally the customer asks what is going on, so you explain that sometimes the best players do not get the best reviews and it is best to listen.

The customer does not trust his own hearing, or worse, thinks you are somehow 'pulling a fast one' so leaves, buying the Harry Pancake Mk3 Improved on the internet for a discount.

Epilogue. A month or so later the same customer returns, "I don't think I am getting the best results from my Harry Pancake Mk3 Improved in my system, do you think a new interconnect will help?"

Another scenario:- Potential £600 CD player customer doesn't walk in because he was treated like a pr##k by the snooty shop assistant the last time he visited!

Epilogue. A month or so later the chain decide to close that branch because it's sales have inexplicably tailed off so much lately.

In what way was the assistant 'snooty' in the example I gave?

How did he treat rhe customer like a pr!ck?

By giving unbiased advice and letting him decide on the best player by listening?

Pray tell.

Because my 'hypothetical' hi-fi shop assistant isn't necessarily the same as yours.

His prevalance in the industry - at one time - was so well-known they even lampooned him in a famous hi-fi shop comedy sketch that millions of people recognised ...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TxQqWSnsHoA

We used to get plenty of customers who had no idea of what was required nor did they particularly want to know, well not in detail anyway. They were, to coin a phrase, our 'bread and butter'.

Sit them down, play some music and show them how it works, how it all goes together and then install it in their homes was a far more likely scenario in a compedent dealer.

Sadly that does not make a funny sketch.

BTW. If you are not actually commenting on what is written in a specific post, best not to quote it....*good*

 

[tonky]

Which one is Davedotco?

The Trio KD-1033 was around in those times - highly thought of in its day. Much like Chebby's Sansui SR-222 turntable - all proper belt driven classics.

tonky (reminiscent mode) - Mel Smith - God bless - underrated comic genius - brilliant in his own series - Colin's Sandwhich

 

[davedotco]

Which one is Davedotco?

The Trio KD-1033 was around in those times - highly thought of in its day. Much like Chebby's Sansui SR-222 turntable - all proper belt driven classics.

tonky (reminiscent mode)

The more sadonic one of course.....*biggrin*

Interestingly (or not, up to you) we had both the players mentioned in the shop at various times. One of my partners would often use them as a starting point to show the clear and obvious improvements brought about by better players, even ones as modest as the Dual or the Planar 2.

It was not a method I favoured (unless specifically asked) though I would often demonstrate against the customers own player as a handy point of reference.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Another scenario:- Potential £600 CD player customer doesn't walk in because he was treated like a pr##k by the snooty shop assistant the last time he visited!

Epilogue. A month or so later the chain decide to close that branch because it's sales have inexplicably tailed off so much lately.

In the 25 years I've been doing this, I have only ever seen people being treated in the same way as they treat staff, which is rare, but does happen. I'm not saying your scenario doesn't exist, as I'm sure there are dealers out there who just don't care.

My examples were covering the "salesman" aspect rather than every possible scenario, as the post would've taken up page after page. Obviously my final one was a little tongue in cheek, addressing the aspect of the customer being forced to buy something more expensive than they came in for, as in blacksabbath's initial, cut and dried example.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

look i am not saying all salesman are like that and maybe i should of worded it better but they are kind like that were i come from

 

[Vladimir]

I've met 4 types of 'hi-fi salesmen'.

One that is personally invested in this hobby and great to have a conversation with; one that is the equivalent of a shifty used car salesman; one that is a disinterested sales professional; and of course there are those that know absolutely nothing about the product they sell and are usually young, more like help staff (box lifters, delivery runs, cleaning, shop keepers etc).

In one shop with more than 5 employees it is typical IME to have a mix of these characters and obsessive audiophiles usually look for 'their guy' so they can talk it over during slow work hours, audition some flagship product, and possibly buy something once or twice a year just as a token to keep hanging in the shop. I generally prefered to avoid the used car salesmen and help staff in my visits, but I usually know what I want so it really doesn't matter what guy I get.

I'm not implying that the used car salesman type is all negative. You can get good deals if you negotiate well, or even free goodies. The salesman invested in this hobby may come off as stuffy to some (newb) clients. Every type has its pros and cons depending on situations I guess.

 

[jmjones]

From the last few posts I'd suggest we are describing people in general, not hifi types.

And if hifi salesmen in general were as grumpy some on this forum, they would have starved to death by now.

In most cases, I would recommend treating people as I expected to be treated and politely making sure I obtained the service I wanted.

 

[tonky]

will it let me post this time!

 

[tonky]

It certainly is! - I had a Rega Planar 2 Ortofon VMS 20E (or M20FL) cartridge. To be honest (Planar 2)it looked a shoddy piece of equipment but mounted on a sturdy wall shelf it was amazingly clear, spacious and dynamic sounding. I bought a Marantz cd player - the 65SE11 - highly thought of at the time too.

I played a cd of Frankie Goes to Hollywood on it alongside the LP version on the Planar 2. Switching from one to the other. - the Planar 2 was superior - I didn't want it to be! but it was! Ahhh - the beauty of vinyl.

I bought a Thorens TD320 suspended deck - thinking it would be better than the Planar 2 - it wasn't. Money was a lot tighter for me 25/30 years ago - I learnt valuable lessons about auditioning equipment. Still got the Marantz cd 65SE 11 - but don't use it.

cheers tonky

 

[tonky]

Fortunately - the guys (hifi retailers past and present) who post here . Dave @frankharvey . DDC .Rick. Colin the speakerman etc. They are all a mine of useful info - and they all say audition well before you buy.

cheers tonky

 

[davedotco]

It certainly is! - I had a Rega Planar 2 Ortofon VMS 20E (or M20FL) cartridge. To be honest (Planar 2)it looked a shoddy piece of equipment but mounted on a sturdy wall shelf it was amazingly clear, spacious and dynamic sounding. I bought a Marantz cd player - the 65SE11 - highly thought of at the time too.

I played a cd of Frankie Goes to Hollywood on it alongside the LP version on the Planar 2. Switching from one to the other. - the Planar 2 was superior - I didn't want it to be! but it was! Ahhh - the beauty of vinyl.

I bought a Thorens TD320 suspended deck - thinking it would be better than the Planar 2 - it wasn't. Money was a lot tighter for me 25/30 years ago - I learnt valuable lessons about auditioning equipment. Still got the Marantz cd 65SE 11 - but don't use it.

cheers tonky

The Planar 2 was a decent deck but I thought it rather overrated. For shear enjoyment the early, more solid, versions of the Dual were better though as you suggest the Planar 2 was clearer.

The Planar 3 really made a difference, though as always with Rega, proper support was everything. I find it hard to imagine now, but we used to sell a basic table for £40 which, when sat on screws driven into the floor, sounded excellent with the Rega.

 

[manicm]

Is it usefull? Clicky

Also: Clicky

So we can safely say all hifi equipment that measure well are the best sounding??

Yes. Proven with scientific research and DBT in world state of the art testing facilities. People prefer neutral and natural. Unfortunately if you want a copy of Dr. Toole's paper on this from 1986 you have to subscribe to the AES library. This paper should be open to the public for free downloads IMO.?

Let's say that you are superhuman and impervious to bias from price, brand, aesthetics etc. You still have the problem of bad recordings and this is everyone's biggest issue. Many try to ameliorate this with placebo or just going down the fidelity scale with sub-par components by today's tech capabilities. I know that a good mastering LP on a decent TT sounds better than a horrific mastering on a CD. But that is not the ideal solution. Digital + good recording and mastering = sonic excellence equivalent of bathing naked with 100 virgins in the Valhalla. I seriously think Steely Dan would have zero fans today if they had poor sound.

 

Production wise there was nothing really outstanding about Steely Dan records until Gaucho where they utilised drum machines. The album polarised fans, and it also marked their collapse, as Becker was hardly present at the sessions, sex drugs etc and Fagan was also injured.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Why can't hi-fi salesmen be like this. This hobby would bloom.

This link is forbidden so i presume that i may agree

 

[Infiniteloop]

The burden of proof falls on the claimant. Those who claim expensive audiophile boutique cables make a sound quality improvement need to come up with evidence for their exceptional claims. Those that claim this amplifier sounds different than that amplifier needs to provide evidence for this claim. And only acceptable evidence is scientific (objective) evidence (DBT, measurements etc.). Anecdotal (subjective) evidence is not valid and can never be treated as facts.

If someone claims their product does something that in reality it doesn't, this is de jure and very likely de facto a fraud. Sadly people who bought fraudulent products will tend to defend them. No one wants to be the naive victim. And most frequent logical falacy used by audio foo apologetics is demand of negative proof. "proove that it doesn't do what it says on the box and that all products X don't as well". This silly argument we so often hear in these debates is known as Russell's teapot. If you claim your product does something and I say prove it does, you can't tell me to prove it doesn't. With that false reasoning we are effectively enabling fraud.

Here is how it works gentlemen.

Machina Dynamica manufactures a product for which they provide no evidence showing it does what the manufacturer claims. However, that product doesn't immediately go to the shops. It is first sent to a publication like Positive Feedback to give it a review (anecdotal evidence) and thus credibility. Then the readers buy this fraudulent product and if told they were effectively scammed, they will deffend their action and the product, thus generating testimonials (more anecdotal evidence).

Fraudster (manufacturer) > Enabler (reviewer) > Consumer (sucker born every minute)

Of course there are also shills used in this process, but let's not get this post too exciting now.

When you see someone drowning it is the decent thing to help and save a life. However, one should be cautious not to lose their own in the process. You better be a very good swimmer before trying such a thing. Same with these discussions where one group or individual wants to raise awareness and help people from being had due to their ignorance on a certain subject matter. They have to be prepared to be attacked, ridiculed and insulted by the very people they would like to help. Often they end up banned on forums for being too outspoken and a crowd irritant. Once a happy customer does not feel nice when placed in the role of an ignorant and naive victim. Therefore, no one likes a gadfly, but individuals who don't fall under peer pressure serve a positive role nevertheless. Why else do you think Ajani started these threads?

Small disclaimer. I'm not this morally driven. I just like throwing rocks at Safari animals.

So how do you measure things like 'imaging' and 'soundstage'?

Or are they too just products of 'expectation bias' or some other nonsense?

 

[manicm]

Scenario 99. I extensively audition a component that I eventually like/dislike. I am able to provide sufficient proof in the form of measurements and abx results. I invite a friend who's in the market for such hifi and sit him down for an hour or so to demonstrate. And I use Steely Dan's Everything Must Go with its pristine production for any listening, if any was done. That's an afternoon he'll never get back, a friend I've lost, and he persuades my girlfriend I belong in the loony bin. Result.

Sometimes, just sometimes, life is too short. Obviously I and most others will look at the specs to be guided in the right direction, impedance and sensitivity in a speaker, amp specs etc, but proof ultimately be provided by the manufacturer.

 

[davedotco]

Between objectivism and listening? I just don't get it....*unknw*

We know, from tests that have been carried out, that it is near impossible to hear the difference between well designed dacs, amplifiers, cables etc when auditioned in carefully controlled (blind, level matched etc) circumstances.

But is a real world hi-fi system such a circumstance? I think not.

Firstly there are technical reasons why some otherwise near identical components will sound different in some circumstances, the most obvious one being the amp/speaker interface.

This is often complex enough to push many amplifiers outside their designed operating areas, even at quite modest levels resulting in a change of sound quality. That amplifiers behave differently may explain why they can sound different.

There are other reasons too, high input sensitivity changes the way amplifiers are used, high output levels from dacs cause them to audition as better and of course there are the more psycological reasons such as expectation bias and branding.

These and other factors all determine how we use a system and 'how we get on with it', and that genuinely makes a difference to how good the system appears to us.

To me this is straightforward, the performance of a system is all about how we use it and how it works for us and in our home.

 

[Vladimir]

So how do you measure things like 'imaging' and 'soundstage'?

Or are they too just products of 'expectation bias' or some other nonsense?

Already answered this in the other thread (HiFi - Imagination, Exaggeration and Colouration?).

 

[Vladimir]

Why can't hi-fi salesmen be like this. This hobby would bloom.

 

[Vladimir]

Why can't hi-fi salesmen be like this. This hobby would bloom.

This link is forbidden so i presume that i may agree

Fixed. The original site doesn't allow external linking (saving on traffic).

 

[paulkebab]

I decide after not too much analytical-type listening my three year old 'WHF Best Amp up to £500' amp can't do what I demand of it, and want to upgrade. Of the top three in my shortlist two have pretty similar specs, and are also WHF winners; the third, which is well off the radar and not available for store demo anywhere, has noticeably worse specs and I have trouble finding any reviews on it. However, the manufacturer of the speakers I have actually owns one, and bizarrely owns my 'to be replaced' amp in seperate setups so a quick phone call gets a little bit of insight. By 'specs' I mean the usual things ie THD, frequency response, signal to noise ratio etc. I audition the 'similar' two and come away happier knowing my needs are achievable. So, I think quite reasonably that surely the 'significantly worse spec' amp won't cut it. Third amp supplier works on a 'home demo sale or return' basis and duly delivers the amp for audition. Turns out the third amp wipes the floor with anything I've heard before, including the previous 'far superior' two, compounded by the fact my partner listens to some of her fave stuff and sits there with a stupid grin. She duly puts all packaging into the box and implies it's not going back, and I grin back in total agreement. In a re-appraisal I connect the old amp back up and the real-world test results are 100% confirmed by two people, it's a no-brainer. So, it's ok to look at spec sheets but they mean nothing in an audition. Who would be at fault if I purchased one of the other two then discovered number three ( by accident of course as it's technically way inferior and wouldn't have made the short list ) and realised I'd made a major mistake? Only one answer to that.

I've enjoyed reading this thread and most of it put a smile on my face - but as a few have said, trust nothing only your ears in this ( very rewarding ) hobby.

 

[tonky]

And I listen and compare using my "flawed human senses". - I get pleasure listening to Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, John Williams, Julian Bream, Crosby Stills, Nash and Young, The Beatles, Robert Plant and Alison Krauss. ETC- Life's to short to waste on this "over objectification" which has reached troll - like levels.

Objective stats - has a place - it's a useful guide in narrowing down equipment choice - but eventually it boils down to careful listening - individual choice - some guidance from a decent retailer etc

tonky

 

[Vladimir]

Between objectivism and listening? I just don't get it....*unknw*

Listening to electronic appliances to determine their performance inside a system, in a room with all reflections and room modes? Despite limitation of human hearing and extremely short audible memory, susception to bias, visual stimulations and suggestion, why not just listen?

And no, listening at home does not improve things that much. You just eliminate the room differences but you still introduce the lack of active audio memory to compare components since you send the other pair to the shop, or you are not Flash Gordon fast enough to swap them to the exact location under 5 seconds and return to the exact position of listening with your head, and your metabolism exactly the same. And not to mention a new set of bias' are introduced with the new looks, price, brand, suggestions etc.

Rely on flawed human senses and perception or rely on science? I choose door #2. I paid through the nose for 'upgrading' door #1.

That's for chasing accuracy aka fidelity. But if I want hedonism, if I want to stimulate my biases and senses as well as boost my social ratings in the hobby, I'll be buying something I like superficially and appologize to no one.