HiFi - Facts, Fiction and Conjecture

[Ajani]

1W = 1W = 1W regardless of output stage biasing, that was my point. How you percieve it doesn't change the fact that an amplifier will begin clipping after it excedes it's power output capabilities.

Let's say you want to prop up a desk with a couple of books. What matters is how thicks they are, not if they are poetry or phonebooks.

There is a threshold in amplifiers where further qualitative improvements in performance stop being audible. Same is for DACs and CDPs. Same for cables. Fortunately components that pass this sonic quality barier are cheap and plentiful. You can pay premium for added features, better build quality, aesthetics and larger quantity, but you won't get improved sound quality out of it. You can imagine it if it pleases you, but it's not real.

I agree that there is a threshold. Though we do need to keep in mind that even that is somewhat relative. While I don't believe in "golden ears" or any such, I do believe that trained listeners notice things that the untrained don't notice. So even Harman trains listeners, so that at least know what to look for during tests.

Years ago I took an online distortion test, that was being discussed on another forum. The first time I took the test, my threshold for hearing distortion was pretty average, but as I practiced, I found I got better scores. The same thing was noted by other persons who tried the test. It's not absolute proof of anything, but it certainly suggests that training and just knowing what to look for can have an affect on hearing subtle differences.

Now, as I will always say: Whether you're willing to pay an extra $200 or $20,000 for subtle improvements is a very personal decision.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

There is a lot of misinformation in our hobby and it's not quite as one way as it might seem.?

For example, are following 3 statements fact, fiction or conjecture??

1) All amplifiers sound the same.

2) Tube amps are popular because they distort the sound in a pleasant manner.

3) All cables sound the same.

?

None of those statements are facts. 1 & 3 are straight up fiction and 2 is conjecture. It's easy to either completely misinterpret the results of DBT(double blind testing) and measurements or to draw conclusions that aren't actually proven.?

The facts are that in DBT, no one has been able to prove that level matched amps, that measure the same, sound different. That is is a very different proposition from "all amps sound the same". It tells you that under certain conditions amps may sound different. First, if they're not level matched; even a relatively small increase in volume can make one amp sound better than the other. Secondly if the amps measure differently. So don't make the assumption that you can randomly pick the cheapest amp off the shelf and it will sound the same as the $15K one in the HiFi store. Just look at reviews that actually measure products and you might be surprised at how differently some products measure. Note that many expensive products measure terribly, so price is not a great indicator of quality/competent design.

Likewise, tube amps tend to measure poorly compared to solid state amps, but that doesn't prove that the only difference between the two is distortion. To provide compelling (though not absolute) proof of that, someone would need to design SS amps to directly mimic the distortion of various tube amps and then do DBT to see if the tube fans can tell the differences. This would be similar to the Carver Test (but a lot more rigorous).?

Cables are similar to amps. They have to meet basic specifications to be "expected" to sound the same. For example, running 50 feet of 18 gauge speaker wire for a 4 ohm load probably isn't the best idea.?

What all this means, is that when someone claims they heard a difference between amps or even speaker cables, you can't just assume that it was all in their imagination, as there may well be measurable reasons for the differences.

I raised a topic the other day ref the power consumption of amps in relation to their output. (sadly it gained little interest)

But I believe this is pivotal to how an amp sounds/performs. Regardless of type.

The composition of interconnects (conductor purity) I've also argued makes a difference.

Subtle differences can be 'jarring' to some which is one reason these debates get so heated.

Outside the lab, the R&D there are only opinions - one man's wine and all that......

Ajani - looks like you've absorbed what I said in your previous thread.....

It looks like it marinated......

 

[Vladimir]

1W = 1W = 1W regardless of output stage biasing, that was my point. How you percieve it doesn't change the fact that an amplifier will begin clipping after it excedes it's power output capabilities.

Let's say you want to prop up a desk with a couple of books. What matters is how thicks they are, not if they are poetry or phonebooks.

There is a threshold in amplifiers where further qualitative improvements in performance stop being audible. Same is for DACs and CDPs. Same for cables. Fortunately components that pass this sonic quality barier are cheap and plentiful. You can pay premium for added features, better build quality, aesthetics and larger quantity, but you won't get improved sound quality out of it. You can imagine it if it pleases you, but it's not real.

This is what I have been saying in my recent thread, and I believe the threshold is around a £2000 system which is very well and carefully matched, although others may think the threshold value is different

You can't have a sound quality threshold for a system since it includes speakers and maybe a turntable. They are transducers and as such have far more imperfections to deal with. A DAC on the other hand is already delivering best audible sound quality at $25, CD/DVD under $100 and an amplifier at $200.

 

[Ajani]

There is a lot of misinformation in our hobby and it's not quite as one way as it might seem.

For example, are following 3 statements fact, fiction or conjecture?

1) All amplifiers sound the same.

2) Tube amps are popular because they distort the sound in a pleasant manner.

3) All cables sound the same.

None of those statements are facts. 1 & 3 are straight up fiction and 2 is conjecture. It's easy to either completely misinterpret the results of DBT(double blind testing) and measurements or to draw conclusions that aren't actually proven.

The facts are that in DBT, no one has been able to prove that level matched amps, that measure the same, sound different. That is is a very different proposition from "all amps sound the same". It tells you that under certain conditions amps may sound different. First, if they're not level matched; even a relatively small increase in volume can make one amp sound better than the other. Secondly if the amps measure differently. So don't make the assumption that you can randomly pick the cheapest amp off the shelf and it will sound the same as the $15K one in the HiFi store. Just look at reviews that actually measure products and you might be surprised at how differently some products measure. Note that many expensive products measure terribly, so price is not a great indicator of quality/competent design.

Likewise, tube amps tend to measure poorly compared to solid state amps, but that doesn't prove that the only difference between the two is distortion. To provide compelling (though not absolute) proof of that, someone would need to design SS amps to directly mimic the distortion of various tube amps and then do DBT to see if the tube fans can tell the differences. This would be similar to the Carver Test (but a lot more rigorous).

Cables are similar to amps. They have to meet basic specifications to be "expected" to sound the same. For example, running 50 feet of 18 gauge speaker wire for a 4 ohm load probably isn't the best idea.

What all this means, is that when someone claims they heard a difference between amps or even speaker cables, you can't just assume that it was all in their imagination, as there may well be measurable reasons for the differences.

I raised a topic the other day ref the power consumption of amps in relation to their output. (sadly it gained little interest)

But I believe this is pivotal to how an amp sounds/performs. Regardless of type.

The composition of interconnects (conductor purity) I've also argued makes a difference.

Subtle differences can be 'jarring' to some which is one reason these debates get so heated.

Outside the lab, the R&D there are only opinions - one man's wine and all that......

Ajani - looks like you've absorbed what I said in your previous thread.....

It looks like it marinated......

Nah... People always assume that I must fall completely on one side of the debate or the other. So whenever I start an opinion piece about controversial topics, the feeling is that I must want to outlaw all sighted testing and subjective opinions and that I think all amps sound the same etc... I must be some extremist sciency type.

IMO, just as many audiophiles are too willing to trust their ears and fall prey to snake oil, I think many on the side of science abuse the science to the point that they treat conjecture like fact. So it does become like two religous groups bickering over who is right, rather than actually trying to figure out whether real differences exist and, if they do, why they exist.

The sooner audiophiles embrace science facts, rather than simply arguing about fiction and conjecture, is the sooner we can get real answers.

 

[manicm]

1W = 1W = 1W regardless of output stage biasing, that was my point. How you percieve it doesn't change the fact that an amplifier will begin clipping after it excedes it's power output capabilities.?

Let's say you want to prop up a desk with a couple of books. What matters is how thicks they are, not if they are poetry or phonebooks.

There is a threshold in amplifiers where further qualitative improvements in performance stop being audible. Same is for DACs and CDPs. Same for cables. Fortunately components that pass this sonic quality barier are cheap and plentiful. You can pay premium for added features, better build quality, aesthetics and larger quantity, but you won't get improved sound quality out of it. You can imagine it if it pleases you, but it's not real.?

This is what I have been saying in my recent thread, and I believe the threshold is around a £2000 system which is very well and carefully matched, although others may think the threshold value is different

You can't have a sound quality threshold for a system since it includes speakers and maybe a turntable. They are transducers and as such have far more imperfections to deal with. A DAC on the other hand is already delivering best audible sound quality at $25, CD/DVD under $100 and an amplifier at $200.

Which cd player, and especially which amp brand new?? Also remember a dac needs something to surround it, a power supply being obvious. Also, in cd players the transport is very important and not all were equal. Linn actually stopped production because Phillips stopped manufacturing the specific one, concede Linn could have considered alternatives but we'd never know why.

 

[manicm]

I meant the Linn Sondek CD12.

 

[Ajani]

Subtle differences can be 'jarring' to some which is one reason these debates get so heated.

I believe some persons find it easier to identify subtle differences, whether due to years of listening, training etc... But I think the only jarring differences can be explained by measurements etc...

IMO, the jarring part (for subtle differences) is due to sighted bias. So the difference is real, but because you know it's there you find yourself exaggerating it. A lot of blind testing seems to indicate that this is the case. Persons who swear that high res MP3s sound terrible and unlistenable have a very difficult time telling the difference, when they don't know what they're listening to.

I see it as being like treating yourself to an expensive shirt or watch for your birthday. You love the item until you realize that there is a very small blemish on it. From then on it's all you focus on. Even though no one else sees it (until you force them to stare at it), you can't ignore it because you know it's there.

 

[Vladimir]

1W = 1W = 1W regardless of output stage biasing, that was my point. How you percieve it doesn't change the fact that an amplifier will begin clipping after it excedes it's power output capabilities.

Let's say you want to prop up a desk with a couple of books. What matters is how thicks they are, not if they are poetry or phonebooks.

There is a threshold in amplifiers where further qualitative improvements in performance stop being audible. Same is for DACs and CDPs. Same for cables. Fortunately components that pass this sonic quality barier are cheap and plentiful. You can pay premium for added features, better build quality, aesthetics and larger quantity, but you won't get improved sound quality out of it. You can imagine it if it pleases you, but it's not real.

This is what I have been saying in my recent thread, and I believe the threshold is around a £2000 system which is very well and carefully matched, although others may think the threshold value is different

You can't have a sound quality threshold for a system since it includes speakers and maybe a turntable. They are transducers and as such have far more imperfections to deal with. A DAC on the other hand is already delivering best audible sound quality at $25, CD/DVD under $100 and an amplifier at $200.

Which cd player, and especially which amp brand new?? Also remember a dac needs something to surround it, a power supply being obvious. Also, in cd players the transport is very important and not all were equal. Linn actually stopped production because Phillips stopped manufacturing the specific one, concede Linn could have considered alternatives but we'd never know why.

Toshiba SD-3109

Behringer UCA202

Behringer A500

Attach your speakers of choice and enjoy music.

 

[Snooker]

You can't have a sound quality threshold for a system since it includes speakers and maybe a turntable. They are transducers and as such have far more imperfections to deal with. A DAC on the other hand is already delivering best audible sound quality at $25, CD/DVD under $100 and an amplifier at $200.

I had taken the cost of speakers without a turn table into account for the reasons you have since said, as an example a pair of headphones at say around £300 in my opinion will sound probably "90-95%" as good as what is possible, same for speakers around say £1000, so I still believe a system for around £2000 with out a turnatable would sound "90-95%" as good as what is posible, in other words we have reached the freshold where it drops off exponentially, but others again may disagree at where this threshold point is where the system can sound around "90-95%" as good as what is possible, surely most people must agree that a system for a few thousand will sound around the same as a much more expensive sytem in the £20,000 range, there really is so much hype connected to hi-fi which I am sure the manufacturers love to up there price regarding pure sound quality, would be interesting what the reviewers here on what hi-fi think regarding where they think the threshold point is as stated above, also I believe in blind tests to give the most accurate results

 

[manicm]

1W = 1W = 1W regardless of output stage biasing, that was my point. How you percieve it doesn't change the fact that an amplifier will begin clipping after it excedes it's power output capabilities.?

Let's say you want to prop up a desk with a couple of books. What matters is how thicks they are, not if they are poetry or phonebooks.

There is a threshold in amplifiers where further qualitative improvements in performance stop being audible. Same is for DACs and CDPs. Same for cables. Fortunately components that pass this sonic quality barier are cheap and plentiful. You can pay premium for added features, better build quality, aesthetics and larger quantity, but you won't get improved sound quality out of it. You can imagine it if it pleases you, but it's not real.?

This is what I have been saying in my recent thread, and I believe the threshold is around a £2000 system which is very well and carefully matched, although others may think the threshold value is different

You can't have a sound quality threshold for a system since it includes speakers and maybe a turntable. They are transducers and as such have far more imperfections to deal with. A DAC on the other hand is already delivering best audible sound quality at $25, CD/DVD under $100 and an amplifier at $200.

Which cd player, and especially which amp brand new?? Also remember a dac needs something to surround it, a power supply being obvious. Also, in cd players the transport is very important and not all were equal. Linn actually stopped production because Phillips stopped manufacturing the specific one, concede Linn could have considered alternatives but we'd never know why.

Toshiba SD-3109

Behringer UCA202

Behringer A500

Attach your speakers of choice and enjoy music.

 

Not convinced, about very cheap cdps at least, I once auditioned speakers at a hifi store, and a low end Cambridge Audio cdp showed a pair of Boston Acoustic A26 in a bad light, brought my own system and they sounded better. And I have nothing against CA, I have their bluray player.

 

[Vladimir]

1W = 1W = 1W regardless of output stage biasing, that was my point. How you percieve it doesn't change the fact that an amplifier will begin clipping after it excedes it's power output capabilities.

Let's say you want to prop up a desk with a couple of books. What matters is how thicks they are, not if they are poetry or phonebooks.

There is a threshold in amplifiers where further qualitative improvements in performance stop being audible. Same is for DACs and CDPs. Same for cables. Fortunately components that pass this sonic quality barier are cheap and plentiful. You can pay premium for added features, better build quality, aesthetics and larger quantity, but you won't get improved sound quality out of it. You can imagine it if it pleases you, but it's not real.

This is what I have been saying in my recent thread, and I believe the threshold is around a £2000 system which is very well and carefully matched, although others may think the threshold value is different

You can't have a sound quality threshold for a system since it includes speakers and maybe a turntable. They are transducers and as such have far more imperfections to deal with. A DAC on the other hand is already delivering best audible sound quality at $25, CD/DVD under $100 and an amplifier at $200.

Which cd player, and especially which amp brand new?? Also remember a dac needs something to surround it, a power supply being obvious. Also, in cd players the transport is very important and not all were equal. Linn actually stopped production because Phillips stopped manufacturing the specific one, concede Linn could have considered alternatives but we'd never know why.

Toshiba SD-3109

Behringer UCA202

Behringer A500

Attach your speakers of choice and enjoy music.

Not convinced, about very cheap cdps at least, I once auditioned speakers at a hifi store, and a low end Cambridge Audio cdp showed a pair of Boston Acoustic A26 in a bad light, brought my own system and they sounded better. And I have nothing against CA, I have their bluray player.

Such individual sighted tests are not valid to be presented as facts. But I believe you heard what you say you did.

 

[manicm]

1W = 1W = 1W regardless of output stage biasing, that was my point. How you percieve it doesn't change the fact that an amplifier will begin clipping after it excedes it's power output capabilities.?

Let's say you want to prop up a desk with a couple of books. What matters is how thicks they are, not if they are poetry or phonebooks.

There is a threshold in amplifiers where further qualitative improvements in performance stop being audible. Same is for DACs and CDPs. Same for cables. Fortunately components that pass this sonic quality barier are cheap and plentiful. You can pay premium for added features, better build quality, aesthetics and larger quantity, but you won't get improved sound quality out of it. You can imagine it if it pleases you, but it's not real.?

This is what I have been saying in my recent thread, and I believe the threshold is around a £2000 system which is very well and carefully matched, although others may think the threshold value is different

You can't have a sound quality threshold for a system since it includes speakers and maybe a turntable. They are transducers and as such have far more imperfections to deal with. A DAC on the other hand is already delivering best audible sound quality at $25, CD/DVD under $100 and an amplifier at $200.

Which cd player, and especially which amp brand new?? Also remember a dac needs something to surround it, a power supply being obvious. Also, in cd players the transport is very important and not all were equal. Linn actually stopped production because Phillips stopped manufacturing the specific one, concede Linn could have considered alternatives but we'd never know why.

Toshiba SD-3109

Behringer UCA202

Behringer A500

Attach your speakers of choice and enjoy music.

?

Not convinced, about very cheap cdps at least, I once auditioned speakers at a hifi store, and a low end Cambridge Audio cdp showed a pair of Boston Acoustic A26 in a bad light, brought my own system and they sounded better. And I have nothing against CA, I have their bluray player.

Such individual sighted tests are not valid to be presented as facts. But I believe you heard what you say you did. 

Rubbish, and I meant a brand new player, that Toshiba is 15 years old.

 

[Vladimir]

1W = 1W = 1W regardless of output stage biasing, that was my point. How you percieve it doesn't change the fact that an amplifier will begin clipping after it excedes it's power output capabilities.

Let's say you want to prop up a desk with a couple of books. What matters is how thicks they are, not if they are poetry or phonebooks.

There is a threshold in amplifiers where further qualitative improvements in performance stop being audible. Same is for DACs and CDPs. Same for cables. Fortunately components that pass this sonic quality barier are cheap and plentiful. You can pay premium for added features, better build quality, aesthetics and larger quantity, but you won't get improved sound quality out of it. You can imagine it if it pleases you, but it's not real.

This is what I have been saying in my recent thread, and I believe the threshold is around a £2000 system which is very well and carefully matched, although others may think the threshold value is different

You can't have a sound quality threshold for a system since it includes speakers and maybe a turntable. They are transducers and as such have far more imperfections to deal with. A DAC on the other hand is already delivering best audible sound quality at $25, CD/DVD under $100 and an amplifier at $200.

Which cd player, and especially which amp brand new?? Also remember a dac needs something to surround it, a power supply being obvious. Also, in cd players the transport is very important and not all were equal. Linn actually stopped production because Phillips stopped manufacturing the specific one, concede Linn could have considered alternatives but we'd never know why.

Toshiba SD-3109

Behringer UCA202

Behringer A500

Attach your speakers of choice and enjoy music.

Not convinced, about very cheap cdps at least, I once auditioned speakers at a hifi store, and a low end Cambridge Audio cdp showed a pair of Boston Acoustic A26 in a bad light, brought my own system and they sounded better. And I have nothing against CA, I have their bluray player.

Such individual sighted tests are not valid to be presented as facts. But I believe you heard what you say you did.

Rubbish, and I meant a brand new player, that Toshiba is 15 years old.

Pick any multi-format player under $100 on Amazon for the same effect.

 

[manicm]

1W = 1W = 1W regardless of output stage biasing, that was my point. How you percieve it doesn't change the fact that an amplifier will begin clipping after it excedes it's power output capabilities.?

Let's say you want to prop up a desk with a couple of books. What matters is how thicks they are, not if they are poetry or phonebooks.

There is a threshold in amplifiers where further qualitative improvements in performance stop being audible. Same is for DACs and CDPs. Same for cables. Fortunately components that pass this sonic quality barier are cheap and plentiful. You can pay premium for added features, better build quality, aesthetics and larger quantity, but you won't get improved sound quality out of it. You can imagine it if it pleases you, but it's not real.?

This is what I have been saying in my recent thread, and I believe the threshold is around a £2000 system which is very well and carefully matched, although others may think the threshold value is different

You can't have a sound quality threshold for a system since it includes speakers and maybe a turntable. They are transducers and as such have far more imperfections to deal with. A DAC on the other hand is already delivering best audible sound quality at $25, CD/DVD under $100 and an amplifier at $200.

Which cd player, and especially which amp brand new?? Also remember a dac needs something to surround it, a power supply being obvious. Also, in cd players the transport is very important and not all were equal. Linn actually stopped production because Phillips stopped manufacturing the specific one, concede Linn could have considered alternatives but we'd never know why.

Toshiba SD-3109

Behringer UCA202

Behringer A500

Attach your speakers of choice and enjoy music.

?

Not convinced, about very cheap cdps at least, I once auditioned speakers at a hifi store, and a low end Cambridge Audio cdp showed a pair of Boston Acoustic A26 in a bad light, brought my own system and they sounded better. And I have nothing against CA, I have their bluray player.

Such individual sighted tests are not valid to be presented as facts. But I believe you heard what you say you did.?

Rubbish, and I meant a brand new player, that Toshiba is 15 years old.

Pick any multi-format player under $100 on Amazon for the same effect. 

And you've heard them all and done testing, blind or otherwise, and you're so confident they'd all sound good right? You've simply heard all digital sources so you're an authority right?

 

[Vladimir]

And you've heard them all and done testing, blind or otherwise, and you're so confident they'd all sound good right? You've simply heard all digital sources so you're an authority right?

The Redbook standard and the Sony-Philips Consortium are the authority. I'm just psychic.

 

[manicm]

And you've heard them all and done testing, blind or otherwise, and you're so confident they'd all sound good right? You've simply heard all digital sources so you're an authority right?

The Redbook standard and the Sony-Philips Consortium are the authority. I'm just psychic. 

Ha ha you'd like to think you are but you're just thumb-sucking which is as bad - or as good - as sighted testing

 

[tonky]

My mass is the same on planet Earth - also the moon - and Uranus too (how apt!).

But my weight on each of those planets is, of course, different.

tonky - it's all in the naim

 

[manicm]

What Vladimir is effectively saying is that all cd players since 1982 sounded equally good, and perhaps thus, most astonishingly, all the internal dacs were equally good. So Wolfsons for example were no better than el cheapo ones.

That's a hefty assumption or claim to make.

 

[Vladimir]

And you've heard them all and done testing, blind or otherwise, and you're so confident they'd all sound good right? You've simply heard all digital sources so you're an authority right?

The Redbook standard and the Sony-Philips Consortium are the authority. I'm just psychic.

Ha ha you'd like to think you are but you're just thumb-sucking which is as bad - or as good - as sighted testing

You actually go out and audition CD players. You have to be aware at least to some extent how funny this is to smarter and better educated people.

 

[Vladimir]

What Vladimir is effectively saying is that all cd players since 1982 sounded equally good, and perhaps thus, most astonishingly, all the internal dacs were equally good. So Wolfsons for example were no better than el cheapo ones.

That's a hefty assumption or claim to make.

I do.

Exception with Naim of course.

 

[manicm]

And you've heard them all and done testing, blind or otherwise, and you're so confident they'd all sound good right? You've simply heard all digital sources so you're an authority right?

The Redbook standard and the Sony-Philips Consortium are the authority. I'm just psychic.?

Ha ha you'd like to think you are but you're just thumb-sucking which is as bad - or as good - as sighted testing

You actually go out and audition CD players. You have to be aware at least to some extent how funny this is to smarter and better educated people. 

No Vladimir, read my post before this one, you're really saying that all cd players since 1982 have sounded the same, and thus all the internal dacs were equal? So Wolfsons were just over hyped rubbish, in today Sabre is just overrated.

That's a hefty, hefty claim/assumption.

 

[tonky]

and arrogant tosspots to boot no doubt!

 

[Vladimir]

And you've heard them all and done testing, blind or otherwise, and you're so confident they'd all sound good right? You've simply heard all digital sources so you're an authority right?

The Redbook standard and the Sony-Philips Consortium are the authority. I'm just psychic.

Ha ha you'd like to think you are but you're just thumb-sucking which is as bad - or as good - as sighted testing

You actually go out and audition CD players. You have to be aware at least to some extent how funny this is to smarter and better educated people.

No Vladimir, read my post before this one, you're really saying that all cd players since 1982 have sounded the same, and thus all the internal dacs were equal? So Wolfsons were just over hyped rubbish, in today Sabre is just overrated.

That's a hefty, hefty claim/assumption.

Again yes. Portable Sony discman = dCS Scarlatti.

 

[manicm]

What Vladimir is effectively saying is that all cd players since 1982 sounded equally good, and perhaps thus, most astonishingly, all the internal dacs were equally good. So Wolfsons for example were no better than el cheapo ones.

That's a hefty assumption or claim to make.

I do.?

Exception with Naim of course.

So you're just thumb-sucking then. So without doing BT on all cd players for 34 years how do you come to that conclusion, come on tell us then.

 

[Vladimir]

*lol*