What makes a hi-fi component high end, is it only because of the high price, specification, build quality, availability or marketing hype. At what point does one determin a product to be high end against others in its class.
Hi end or not high end
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matthewpiano
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chebby
Well-known member
I let other people worry about what is low, mid or high figh.
My system is composed of 'entry level' equipment and costs less than some people are prepared to pay out for biwire terminal jump leads.
My system is composed of 'entry level' equipment and costs less than some people are prepared to pay out for biwire terminal jump leads.
It's a fairly pointless discussion, like what makes a sports car a supercar*. It's all a matter of the opinion of those applying the label...
* Although of course there is only one real Supercar...
* Although of course there is only one real Supercar...
One persons high end hifi, is another mans low end hifi. It is all relative to the monies you earn, and can afford.
My kit is ok, but there is much better out there, and way more expensive. As I like the sound, it doesn't bother me if it is deemed low fi or high end.
My kit is ok, but there is much better out there, and way more expensive. As I like the sound, it doesn't bother me if it is deemed low fi or high end.
matthewpiano
Well-known member
Agree with potboyslim.
What always strikes me is the kit that people think to be 'entry level'.
Sorry Chebby, but to me your Naim system is not entry-level in the wider scheme of things (even though it might be in the Naim range).
As in many things though it does, as Andrew says, depend on who is applying the label.
What always strikes me is the kit that people think to be 'entry level'.
Sorry Chebby, but to me your Naim system is not entry-level in the wider scheme of things (even though it might be in the Naim range).
As in many things though it does, as Andrew says, depend on who is applying the label.
My insurance broker ( who thinks he knows about hi-fi ) has asked me to list my kit as high-end, mid-price, or budget. How can you possibly categorise an object when there has to be a comparison.
Let me put a very different twist on this:
In the world of free capitalist economy this is all blurred. It is up to the consumer to figure out if it is worth to pay x amount of hard earned cash for a product. And it is not alwasy possible to get info on what is inside the product and what and how it actually does. In making sure the product sells a lot is left to marketing, styling, pricing etc.
On the contrary, in the world of planned economy (e.g. former soviet Union) it was a different story. Consumer electronics were classified into 5 classes: 4th class (the lowest), 3rd, 2nd, 1st and "highest". Each class had it's own set of parameters that had to be complied with by any manufacturer (THD, frequency resonse, dynamic range etc). For consumers it was easy to tell which class the product belonged to as model numbers would show this - the first figure of the model number would always indicate class: Brig 007 would be a highest class amp, Mayak 101 would be a first-class and Vesna 302 third-class tape recorder, and so on. so it was relatively easy to choose and peole would know what bang they are getting for the buck. But there were quality and reliability issues, so people had to know which makers (factories) made the units as some had beter reputations than others. The prices were fixed as well (same price in all shops), but there were supply problems. The other interesting thing is that all the units came with a compete technical documentation fully suitable for servicing the unit, complete with full circuit diagrams, so you knew excatly what you are buying. I do not think though there were any units classed as anything that can be called high end. That was left to the foreign makes.
The planned economy did not survive in the Soviet Union and free economy does so far and gives a much better choice to consumer and achieves better quality. The price for this, and that is the point here, is the consumer having to figure out what he/she is buying! And not every maker and even not every consumer magazine is helpful!
So high-end is a what you think is high-end (dpeneding on what you appreciate in a hi-fi product). And I think it means exclusivity which means high price and/or scarcity.
In the world of free capitalist economy this is all blurred. It is up to the consumer to figure out if it is worth to pay x amount of hard earned cash for a product. And it is not alwasy possible to get info on what is inside the product and what and how it actually does. In making sure the product sells a lot is left to marketing, styling, pricing etc.
On the contrary, in the world of planned economy (e.g. former soviet Union) it was a different story. Consumer electronics were classified into 5 classes: 4th class (the lowest), 3rd, 2nd, 1st and "highest". Each class had it's own set of parameters that had to be complied with by any manufacturer (THD, frequency resonse, dynamic range etc). For consumers it was easy to tell which class the product belonged to as model numbers would show this - the first figure of the model number would always indicate class: Brig 007 would be a highest class amp, Mayak 101 would be a first-class and Vesna 302 third-class tape recorder, and so on. so it was relatively easy to choose and peole would know what bang they are getting for the buck. But there were quality and reliability issues, so people had to know which makers (factories) made the units as some had beter reputations than others. The prices were fixed as well (same price in all shops), but there were supply problems. The other interesting thing is that all the units came with a compete technical documentation fully suitable for servicing the unit, complete with full circuit diagrams, so you knew excatly what you are buying. I do not think though there were any units classed as anything that can be called high end. That was left to the foreign makes.
The planned economy did not survive in the Soviet Union and free economy does so far and gives a much better choice to consumer and achieves better quality. The price for this, and that is the point here, is the consumer having to figure out what he/she is buying! And not every maker and even not every consumer magazine is helpful!
So high-end is a what you think is high-end (dpeneding on what you appreciate in a hi-fi product). And I think it means exclusivity which means high price and/or scarcity.
I guess price has much to do with the label of High-End .... as does the capabilities of the unit/system to deliver a performance adding to the listenability and realism.
I guess it also has to do with a price point where the law of diminishing returns kicks in to a higher degree than at prices below that.
Some high-end has a visual impact to a greater degree than lesser priced/able units, but not all - although, regardless of the design, you would hope the build quality to be worthy of such a 'tag'. Built to LAST.
My personal experience would put kit in roughly the £5k plus .... per unit ... in to what I consider the high-end. There are possibly exceptions to the rule, of course.
It can be where the usual constraints have been lifted, in regard to design/price/size/weight, so that such things do not stand in the designers way, when trying to lift performance, even only if it's perhaps for a relatively small gain. So again, the law of diminishing returns comes in to play to a greater degree perhaps.
As above - I would agree that the Naim system listed is not what 'many' would consider an entry level system.
The fact that Naim do not make 'budget' kit may alone make some people consider even the cheaper Naim kit to be a step in to high-end territory - due to the branding. It's all relative I guess.
I guess it also has to do with a price point where the law of diminishing returns kicks in to a higher degree than at prices below that.
Some high-end has a visual impact to a greater degree than lesser priced/able units, but not all - although, regardless of the design, you would hope the build quality to be worthy of such a 'tag'. Built to LAST.
My personal experience would put kit in roughly the £5k plus .... per unit ... in to what I consider the high-end. There are possibly exceptions to the rule, of course.
It can be where the usual constraints have been lifted, in regard to design/price/size/weight, so that such things do not stand in the designers way, when trying to lift performance, even only if it's perhaps for a relatively small gain. So again, the law of diminishing returns comes in to play to a greater degree perhaps.
As above - I would agree that the Naim system listed is not what 'many' would consider an entry level system.
The fact that Naim do not make 'budget' kit may alone make some people consider even the cheaper Naim kit to be a step in to high-end territory - due to the branding. It's all relative I guess.
johnnyjazz:My insurance broker ( who thinks he knows about hi-fi ) has asked me to list my kit as high-end, mid-price, or budget. How can you possibly categorise an object when there has to be a comparison.
Hmm - from an insurance perspective you could look at it in their terms .... financially.....
High end - could be top-priced stuff ....... £10k to £20k plus per unit.
Mid-range 'could' be £1,500/£2,000 plus per unit
Budget - perhaps less than that .......
That is - looking over the full spectrum of price.....
[ -------------------------------------------------- / ----------------------------------------------]
£100 £100,000
Budget the 'middle-ground' Ultimate High End
Just a thought!
Hmm - from an insurance perspective you could look at it in their terms .... financially.....
High end - could be top-priced stuff ....... £10k to £20k plus per unit.
Mid-range 'could' be £1,500/£2,000 plus per unit
Budget - perhaps less than that .......
That is - looking over the full spectrum of price.....
[ -------------------------------------------------- / ----------------------------------------------]
£100 £100,000
Budget the 'middle-ground' Ultimate High End
Just a thought!
My budget system looked up to mid range and high end systems, but it looked up to high end systems more. Or something like that.
The_Lhc
Well-known member
Andrew Everard:It's a fairly pointless discussion, like what makes a sports car a supercar*.
Actually that one's pretty easy:
1) Stupidly powerful but not necessarily great to drive
2) extreme styling but not necessarily stylish
3) zero practicality
4) hugely expensive (100k just doesn't cut it any more)
Any two of those four will do it but the more the better. Lotus, for example, have never made a supercar, even the Esprit S1 was never powerful or expensive enough.
Actually that one's pretty easy:
1) Stupidly powerful but not necessarily great to drive
2) extreme styling but not necessarily stylish
3) zero practicality
4) hugely expensive (100k just doesn't cut it any more)
Any two of those four will do it but the more the better. Lotus, for example, have never made a supercar, even the Esprit S1 was never powerful or expensive enough.
the_lhc:
Andrew Everard:It's a fairly pointless discussion, like what makes a sports car a supercar*.
Actually that one's pretty easy:
1) Stupidly powerful but not necessarily great to drive
2) extreme styling but not necessarily stylish
3) zero practicality
4) hugely expensive (100k just doesn't cut it any more)
Any two of those four will do it but the more the better. Lotus, for example, have never made a supercar, even the Esprit S1 was never powerful or expensive enough.
It is actaully tricky when you break it down. The Caterham falls into your categories but is no supercar. 300BHP/Ton is a good benchmark but that doesnt always work either. If it featured on a poster then it is a safe bet it was a supercar but today the boundaries from sports car to super car to hyper car are too blurred.
As for High End - to me it is simply one step on from where you are. The term is relative to the user only.
Andrew Everard:It's a fairly pointless discussion, like what makes a sports car a supercar*.
Actually that one's pretty easy:
1) Stupidly powerful but not necessarily great to drive
2) extreme styling but not necessarily stylish
3) zero practicality
4) hugely expensive (100k just doesn't cut it any more)
Any two of those four will do it but the more the better. Lotus, for example, have never made a supercar, even the Esprit S1 was never powerful or expensive enough.
It is actaully tricky when you break it down. The Caterham falls into your categories but is no supercar. 300BHP/Ton is a good benchmark but that doesnt always work either. If it featured on a poster then it is a safe bet it was a supercar but today the boundaries from sports car to super car to hyper car are too blurred.
As for High End - to me it is simply one step on from where you are. The term is relative to the user only.
the nissan gtr is a supercar in every sense of the word , bar price , £50k and it beats cars costing £250k ..
but what bracket is it in ? low , mid , high ? hmmm , its high end to me , but to roman obramovich itsjust a little low end runabout ..
but what bracket is it in ? low , mid , high ? hmmm , its high end to me , but to roman obramovich itsjust a little low end runabout ..
i don't know if this applies to anyone who might be reading this, hi-end for me means 1, high priced equipments and 2, my ideal sound that i desire to have.
With the latter one, my perception of an ideal sound has no solid existence as it is dependable on whatever equipment i get to compare with, and problem is; this "comparison" urges me to climb up to a higher level of what i think is ideal or HIGH END...
The real question is, would money change your taste? I don't think there's an end when we do desire, it's the society we live in that exposes the entire selection to the rich, maybe exposed less to the poor. i remember being told that non of the accessaries(cables) would make any difference because my system was so low end in a shop, so regradless of price, that any point when i determine a product to be high end is when i'm done my lesson learning about an equipment and it sounds better than all the other equipments i have compared with, that's when.
andy
With the latter one, my perception of an ideal sound has no solid existence as it is dependable on whatever equipment i get to compare with, and problem is; this "comparison" urges me to climb up to a higher level of what i think is ideal or HIGH END...
The real question is, would money change your taste? I don't think there's an end when we do desire, it's the society we live in that exposes the entire selection to the rich, maybe exposed less to the poor. i remember being told that non of the accessaries(cables) would make any difference because my system was so low end in a shop, so regradless of price, that any point when i determine a product to be high end is when i'm done my lesson learning about an equipment and it sounds better than all the other equipments i have compared with, that's when.
andy
The_Lhc
Well-known member
TheHomeCinemaCentre:the_lhc:
Andrew Everard:It's a fairly pointless discussion, like what makes a sports car a supercar*.
Actually that one's pretty easy:
1) Stupidly powerful but not necessarily great to drive
2) extreme styling but not necessarily stylish
3) zero practicality
4) hugely expensive (100k just doesn't cut it any more)
Any two of those four will do it but the more the better. Lotus, for example, have never made a supercar, even the Esprit S1 was never powerful or expensive enough.
It is actaully tricky when you break it down. The Caterham falls into your categories but is no supercar.
No it doesn't:
1) Not all Caterhams are stupidly powerful but they are all great to drive - FAIL
2) The Lotus 7 can never be said to have been styled, Caterham haven't done anything with it - FAIL
3) They can be quite economical due to the light weight but other than that, ok - PASS
4) There is no Caterham that costs anywhere near 100k - FAIL
1 out of 4, not a supercar.
today the boundaries from sports car to super car to hyper car are too blurred.
I'm lumping hypercars and supercars together really, the hypercar didn't exist 30 years ago.
Andrew Everard:It's a fairly pointless discussion, like what makes a sports car a supercar*.
Actually that one's pretty easy:
1) Stupidly powerful but not necessarily great to drive
2) extreme styling but not necessarily stylish
3) zero practicality
4) hugely expensive (100k just doesn't cut it any more)
Any two of those four will do it but the more the better. Lotus, for example, have never made a supercar, even the Esprit S1 was never powerful or expensive enough.
It is actaully tricky when you break it down. The Caterham falls into your categories but is no supercar.
No it doesn't:
1) Not all Caterhams are stupidly powerful but they are all great to drive - FAIL
2) The Lotus 7 can never be said to have been styled, Caterham haven't done anything with it - FAIL
3) They can be quite economical due to the light weight but other than that, ok - PASS
4) There is no Caterham that costs anywhere near 100k - FAIL
1 out of 4, not a supercar.
today the boundaries from sports car to super car to hyper car are too blurred.
I'm lumping hypercars and supercars together really, the hypercar didn't exist 30 years ago.
The_Lhc
Well-known member
maxflinn:the nissan gtr is a supercar in every sense of the word
Not even close!
1) Not just good to drive but EASY to drive - FAIL
2) Styling - The new one looks good fair enough but it's not extreme, the Skyline GT-R was barely styled at all though - FAIL
3) Practicality - look at the size of the boot, you could go on holiday in that! - FAIL
4) Expense - said so yourself, only 50k - FAIL
The Skyline GTR is a GREAT car, one of the best, but it's not a supercar, supercars don't even have to be good!
Not even close!
1) Not just good to drive but EASY to drive - FAIL
2) Styling - The new one looks good fair enough but it's not extreme, the Skyline GT-R was barely styled at all though - FAIL
3) Practicality - look at the size of the boot, you could go on holiday in that! - FAIL
4) Expense - said so yourself, only 50k - FAIL
The Skyline GTR is a GREAT car, one of the best, but it's not a supercar, supercars don't even have to be good!
ok , i get the supercar fail (i too watch top gear), but its high end .. its gotta be high end..
TheHomeCinemaCentre:It is actaully tricky when you break it down.
Actually, you're right: the definition of a supercar is that it'll break down a lot, and be tricky to get fixed...
Actually, you're right: the definition of a supercar is that it'll break down a lot, and be tricky to get fixed...
The_Lhc
Well-known member
The width of a coin? That's not very much. Now if you'd said "have panel gaps you could feed a BABY through" I'd have understood.
jaxwired
Well-known member
Good topic. The term "high end" is only useful to describe the category of audio equipment, but is useless to identify any audio equipment specifically. It is useful only when speaking in generalities.
In general high end audio equipment is equipment that is manufactured with the goal of being highly accurate when producing music. That's the whole definition in my opinion. Price has nothing to do with it.
The term is meaningless when speaking of specific equipment since the definition lacks the precision necessary to separate "high end" from "almost high end".
Interestingly, the term "mid-fi" which is often used when discussing audio equipment is similarly hard to nail down.
In general high end audio equipment is equipment that is manufactured with the goal of being highly accurate when producing music. That's the whole definition in my opinion. Price has nothing to do with it.
The term is meaningless when speaking of specific equipment since the definition lacks the precision necessary to separate "high end" from "almost high end".
Interestingly, the term "mid-fi" which is often used when discussing audio equipment is similarly hard to nail down.
johnnyjazz:My insurance broker ( who thinks he knows about hi-fi ) has asked me to list my kit as high-end, mid-price, or budget. How can you possibly categorise an object when there has to be a comparison. If he knows about hifi, let him tell you whether it's high-end, mid-price or budget. Then tell us, so we'll all know.
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