My Opinions On Hi-Fi

[twinkletoes]

What you've highlighted is food for thought.

I am one of the many people, that wouldn't give much thought about the ohm's on the pretext of, most modern amps should drive the most demanding speakers, but the example you gave, regarding the B&W dropping down to 3 ohms is scary.

Thanks for that, you learn something every day

That's the pickle most amps can do 6 maybe 4 and thats if you can trust that number you'll be on the amps ragged edge at that point i wouldn't want to feed 3ohm speakers into an amp only states 4ohms i'd want the headroom.

The only amps that I've come across that clearly state (and that's the important word state) they can drive 2ohm loads is naim. And for a 3 ohm dip speaker with a nominal impedance that's probably closer to 6 that's the sort of amp id want. Im sure there are many more but that one brand i know that makes a point of saying so.

 

[JDL]

I may have aligned my beliefs with yours many years ago but the upgrades I've done have proved the complete opposite of your opinion. The higher I've gone up the food chain the spread of available volume where the system sounds excellent has increased, especially so at lower volumes. My previous budget systems needed some good volume to sound their best.

Recordings can indeed be hit and miss but I'd rather have a system which excels with good recordings than one which masks both good and bad recordings.

As for high-end systems these are in the ear, eye, and wallet of the beholder. I certainly wouldn't class a £2.5K system as high-end... I certainly don't class mine as high-end or reference.

It is tongue in cheek BUT Naim is one such example. basically, it means there are amps that are seemingly more powerful than their wattage figure suggests. NAD,rotel. all seem to, well, give you more.....more real-world figures.

Ah. Thank you. Now I see, but I don't hear, because I haven't heard any of this very special equipment that gives you more than......what the scientific(?) figures say that it gives you. Is this some kind of magic.? Alchemy? Sorcery?

 

[Snooker]

I am very happy with my system as it only has problems which have been highlighted on this forum at too loud a volume thankfully, the unit is fine for normal to fairly loud listening which hits the sweet spot for me, but I was impressed with the naim atom at high volume, after which you hit diminishing returns

I heard my system several years ago at a hi fi exhibition originally and it really sounded excellent, yes the chord system I also heard sounded better, but for the difference in price which was thousands the systems sounded fairly similar at decent volume

You can only design an amp a certain number of ways using good components, and you need to play good quality recordings

 

[JDL]

Just to add to my above comments. These do not come from a hifi snobbery viewpoint. I firmly believe if you have a system which pleases your ear and are fully contented then is no need to look any further. However, if you haven't reached the contentment stage then upgraditis is ready and waiting... been there done that three times

Ha ha "upgraditis". I was wondering how you spell that. I've been suffering from it. I might have cured myself from this nasty and debilitating disease, but have I?

 

[daveh75]

This has no correlation with budget but has everything to do with partnering the equipment correctly.

Making the argument for Active Speakers

 

[Gray]

there are some systems that have been specially tuned to sound nice at the expense of accuracy.

To me, accuracy is nice.
I'd simplify the question to:
"Do you want your best recordings compromised or not?"

Because they will necessarily be compromised where any system:
'Smooths' the sound.
Is 'forgiving'.
'Rounds off' the treble.

Nothing more or less than neutral for me.
It's often said that there are no rights and wrongs when it comes to sound.
There are certainly no wrongs when it comes to taste.
But there are most certainly wrongs when, for whatever reason, reproduction is deliberately made less accurate than the original recording.

High fidelity means true to the original doesn't it?

 

[WayneKerr]

Ha ha "upgraditis". I was wondering how you spell that. I've been suffering from it. I might have cured myself from this nasty and debilitating disease, but have I?

I think you may well have cured yourself with your recent purchases but only time will tell

 

[WayneKerr]

To me, accuracy is nice.
I'd simplify the question to:
"Do you want your best recordings compromised or not?"

Because they will necessarily be compromised where any system:
'Smooths' the sound.
Is 'forgiving'.
'Rounds off' the treble.

Nothing more or less than neutral for me.
It's often said that there are no rights and wrongs when it comes to sound.
There are certainly no wrongs when it comes to taste.
But there are most certainly wrongs when, for whatever reason, reproduction is deliberately made less accurate than the original recording.

High fidelity means true to the original doesn't it?

Agreed. The warts and all presentation of my current kit did grate initially, but put a good recording on and the question becomes, can I forsake this? The answer is a resounding no!

 

[Gray]

The only amps that I've come across that clearly state (and that's the important word state) they can drive 2ohm loads is naim. And for a 3 ohm dip speaker with a nominal impedance that's probably closer to 6 that's the sort of amp id want. Im sure there are many more but that one brand i know that makes a point of saying so.

There are.
I had these amps at home recently, officially rated at 1200W into 2ohms.
If they were a pretty hi-fi brand, they'd probably be 10 times their price:

 

[Jasonovich]

There are.
I had these amps at home recently, officially rated at 1200W into 2ohms.
If they were a pretty hi-fi brand, they'd probably be 10 times their price:
View attachment 5165

Balanced input/outputs, nice. Some serious cooling, these babies must get hot!

 

[JDL]

I think you may well have cured yourself with your recent purchases but only time will tell

Thank you, I hope I'm cured🫡

 

[hifi]

Ive always wanted a Naim since hearing one years back still remember how very good it sounded maybe 1 day !"upgraditis" lol.

 

[Gray]

Balanced input/outputs, nice. Some serious cooling, these babies must get hot!

They blow ot some hot air (a bit like me).
And my back was suffering the day after lifting them about.
Naturally most of the weight is the massive transformer.

Speaker outputs are on Neutrik 'Speakon' connectors - which I really like and would like to see on more hi-fi amps.

 

[Jasonovich]

They blow ot some hot air (a bit like me).
And my back was suffering the day after lifting them about.
Naturally most of the weight is the massive transformer.
View attachment 5166
Speaker outputs are on Neutrik 'Speakon' connectors - which I really like and would like to see on more hi-fi amps.

These are beefy toroid PSU, black capacitors, nice neat circuit layout nice.
You have my big thumbs up 👍😊
Neutrik or Amphenol I swear by them really make excellent XLRs or TRS plugs.
Yeah absolutely, ditch those silly RCAs, would be nice to see a wide adoption on domestic HiFi.

 

[plastic penguin]

I think there are mainly two levels of proper Hi-Fi, systems like mine the Denon Ceol N9 & Kef Q150's giving excellent sound quality from low to loudish music, then high end which really shine from loudish to very loud music, and in my view if you can not play a high end system to its full potential due to neighbours then why have it

My system is around £800 in total with speakers, and you could probably buy a high end system from as little as around £2500 with speakers, after which you are at diminishing returns in sound quality

Also any decent system is only as good as the quality of the recordings you play

Just my opinions, what do you think ?

Just out of interest, at what point on the volume control does your system sound out of its comfort zone?

 

[daytona600]

The only amps that I've come across that clearly state (and that's the important word state) they can drive 2ohm loads is naim.
2ohms is childs play
1ohms speakers Apogee Sintilla with Krell amps in the 1980s most amplifiers would shut down or even go on fire
Some Electrostatic loudspeakers are 0.3ohms & almost a dead short-

 

[abacus]

The only amps that I've come across that clearly state (and that's the important word state) they can drive 2ohm loads is naim.
2ohms is childs play
1ohms speakers Apogee Sintilla with Krell amps in the 1980s most amplifiers would shut down or even go on fire
Some Electrostatic loudspeakers are 0.3ohms & almost a dead short-

ICE amplifiers & pro equipment have been able to do this for donkeys years.

Bill

 

[nopiano]

The only amps that I've come across that clearly state (and that's the important word state) they can drive 2ohm loads is naim.
2ohms is childs play
1ohms speakers Apogee Sintilla with Krell amps in the 1980s most amplifiers would shut down or even go on fire
Some Electrostatic loudspeakers are 0.3ohms & almost a dead short-

Mine does! See picture.

Quite a few decent amps handle two ohms, as the lab tests in Hifi News magazine reveal. But you’re right to highlight that it’s the variable impedance curve of loudspeakers that causes the stress in some cases.

 

[JDL]

ICE amplifiers & pro equipment have been able to do this for donkeys years.

Bill

I had a 1200 Watt Class AB bass amp made by Kustom that could handle 2 ohm loads.

 

[nopiano]

For a perspective on state-of-the art in amplifiers, there’s no better than something like this. It was £25,000 when reviewed, so rather blowing the budget mentioned earlier.

Also drives 2 and 1 ohm loads without breaking sweat. And, imho, about as well written as any review can be. Thank you, Matin Colloms, my favourite reviewer, even slightly above John Atkinson perhaps.

Note this is a direct link, as Hifi Critic journal is sadly no longer published.

https://cdn.dandagostino.com/documents/reviews/dagostino-momentum-stereo-reprint-hificritic.pdf

@Snooker I heard a system in 2017 including a similar amp, which would have reset your expectations from an audio system. Unfortunately it cost about £350k.

 

[Jasonovich]

For a perspective on state-of-the art in amplifiers, there’s no better than something like this. It was £25,000 when reviewed, so rather blowing the budget mentioned earlier.

Also drives 2 and 1 ohm loads without breaking sweat. And, imho, about as well written as any review can be. Thank you, Matin Colloms, my favourite reviewer, even slightly above John Atkinson perhaps.

Note this is a direct link, as Hifi Critic journal is sadly no longer published.

https://cdn.dandagostino.com/documents/reviews/dagostino-momentum-stereo-reprint-hificritic.pdf

@Snooker I heard a system in 2017 including a similar amp, which would have reset your expectations from an audio system. Unfortunately it cost about £350k.

Dan D'Agostino the person behind the Krell and now has his own brand.
Amazing craftmanship, great article.
Thanks for the link.

 

[Snooker]

Just out of interest, at what point on the volume control does your system sound out of its comfort zone?

Well I have the older Denon Ceol N9 and at 20 out of 60 for the internet radio find it starts to get loud so don't go that high but just tried it again today and no it does not harden but doesn't open out like the Naim, my mistake (The N10 & N11 would probably be around 40 odd as they changed the calibration)

Its just I noticed the Naim Atom I was testing for only a couple of days went loud and sounded better than my Denon N9 (It was not over loud or uncomfortable) just too loud with neighbours, of course you have to have a good quality recording

I am happy with my Denon Ceol N9 It sounds excellent and 20 is too loud in any case so its not an issue, I just feel anything for example above the Naim Atom is going to be diminishing returns

 

[Moonfanatic]

You do not have to play a high end system loud to get the best from it. If anything, it's more important that it sounds good when played quietly as you can't possibly listen at eardrum splitting levels at all times.

The absolute biggest factor in sound quality irrespective of the level of your system is the recording you feed it. I have a high end system, and believe me, it is very unforgiving when it is fed a poor recording: it sounds awful as it is only representing what is there, it cannot "improve" what is poor to start with.

 

[Moonfanatic]

You're talking about a very different thing here to what you mentioned above in your original post. What you're describing is the amp running out of current, leading to insufficient control of the speakers, leading to the hardening up you're hearing. Plenty of high-end speakers don't like being pushed. I've heard very high-end amps struggle because of their very low wattage affairs. These amps cost 10-15k, yet i wouldn't put a pair of 85db 8ohm ATC smc7's on an 8-watt class A Audionote amp. it would make a nice noise but you certainly wouldn't get any volume out of it.

This has no correlation with budget but has everything to do with partnering the equipment correctly.

For example, B&W are notorious for this. Their budget speakers will state for example 87db and 8ohm nominal load, but some of those said speakers will dip into the 3 ohm range and stay there for quite a while! That's not an easy load at all. There aren't many amps regardless of budget that can do that sort of current delivery let alone sustain it, especially at volume. They're meant to be budget speakers, easy to live with and paired with lovely yet cheap amps! To buy an amp that can control them properly might be a rather expensive proposition and that's what money buys you, control.

This why id never buy entry-level B&W or ATC without considering what it takes to drive these seemingly easy-to-drive (on paper) speakers and this is where spending the "majority of your budget on speakers" thought process breaks down. It just doesn't hold true unless those speakers are easy to drive. Klipsch for example.

I learnt a very long time ago to buy the most efficient speakers possible and along with that comes volume.

You are absolutely right, the impedance variation with frequency can play total havoc with many amps. That's why I like my Dynaudios, they are 4 ohms flat response throughout the frequency range. You need a good amp to drive them though and my own amp doubles its output between 8 ohms and 4 ohms, so it is more than up to the job.

 

[Snooker]

All it is I had a Naim Atom to try for a couple of days and my friend was up and I was listening at normal volume and it was only until he turned it up more that it sounded better than my system (It was not over loud or uncomfortable) just too loud with neighbours, of course you have to have a good quality recording and again would say anything above say a Naim Atom is going to be diminishing returns