Dual subs or one better sub?

[ellisdj]

Thats roughly the bass you are getting, its shocking same as in every room

You have a huge peak at 35hz which might the room shaking bass - big blue arrow

You have a huge suck out between 70 and 80hz, I have the same in my room - small blue arrow

Then you upper bass 100hz blue square is a mixture of peaks and dips.

I moved the listening positon and the sub location and it the best spot was the front right corner but it doesnt really make much difference to have the sub in the front left corner.

From 60hz down its pretty decent - you can bass manage that - its from 60hz and up where you have the issue and thats the bass that gives you the wallop - luckily thats the area of bass you can effectively treat

 

[ellisdj]

Having a mess around the room responsed well to bass traps on the front and back wall.

 

[nugget2014]

Thats roughly the bass you are getting, its shocking same as in every room

You have a huge peak at 35hz which might the room shaking bass - big blue arrow

You have a huge suck out between 70 and 80hz, I have the same in my room - small blue arrow

Then you upper bass 100hz blue square is a mixture of peaks and dips.

I moved the listening positon and the sub location and it the best spot was the front right corner but it doesnt really make much difference to have the sub in the front left corner.

From 60hz down its pretty decent - you can bass manage that - its from 60hz and up where you have the issue and thats the bass that gives you the wallop - luckily thats the area of bass you can effectively treat

wow that's some information right there. Did you look at my old room photos by Any chance? I can't see how you would get proper info if not. What about if I was to move the entire system the other way, have it on the other wall where the alcove is (if it'll fit) and have the sofa on the wall next to the door with sub at the side next to patio door.

i am very grateful for all the help so far. If I could get the perfect sound by possibly rearranging room that would be great.

 

[ellisdj]

This is why all sound enthusiast should know how to measure their room - I see it as an essential skill really - otherwise your peeing the wind. REW is your free friend - everyone should learn how to use it

Flipping the room around you have the opposite probelm - more upper bass - no low end.

Now I have not had this before - it could lend itself to a big ported sub like a mono - or it could end up so lean in the low end its terrible. With bass you need more the lower you go so the first graph is better in that way.

You have 2 feet behind you thats too small for any being any good for anything but its ideal for treatment. Spend your £600 on acoustic treatment for the room - get advice from GIK and hear the difference, it wont be small.

A better sub will be better but you are fighting a losing battle if the room is not going to let you have it

 

[ellisdj]

Dual subs in this room layour could just about work - I am not 100% though as not tried it.

This way round there is no room gain so a sub like a monolith or ported SVS wuld be better.

How you have the room now I think your problem is lack of upper bass - you are turning your sub up and its making no difference as it wont - what thats doing is making your peaks such as the huge one at 35hz worse by it incrementally increasing as well - causing that bass to linger which will affect bass quality as well

This is exactly the problem I had in my room - my room is atrocious for bass.

Even if you go with the above you will have to run the subs hard - then EQ the upper bass hard as well.

The you have to look at your bass decay / waterfall graphs - you might end up with boomy upper bass if there are big modes there but looking at the latest graph - its worth a try I think if its not too much agg. But it will need 2 subs to get anything like decent low end from that graph.

This is just theory - You need to measure in the room to know for sure

 

[nugget2014]

Treating the room acoustically is not an option. I plan on moving out into a new place ASAP so it'd be a waste

 

[ellisdj]

Why would it be a waste, THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE IS TRUE - the treatment goes with you to any room you live - you hang them same as a picture or some are just free standing. You can change the colour or have any picture on it you want in the future if you change decoration.

Unless you move into a house with a perfect acoustic room which doesnt exist - there will always be a use for them

 

[nugget2014]

Why would it be a waste, THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE IS TRUE - the treatment goes with you to any room you live - you hang them same as a picture or some are just free standing. You can change the colour or have any picture on it you want in the future if you change decoration.

Unless you move into a house with a perfect acoustic room which doesnt exist - there will always be a use for them

is there any way to make sure your theory on the 35hz boost is true in room? IF I was to run dual subs. Wouldn't dual ikons be better than svs pb-2000 and a ikon sub? As they match. Not sure if it matters or not. And what else would that do for me apart from an even response in room. Would it be louder? Might make it twice as easy to upset the neighbour !

 

[bigboss]

Why don't you move first and see if your existing subwoofer gives a better performance in the new room?

 

[ellisdj]

dual subs in your current room config doesnt make any difference to freq response - it just boosts the level of whats already there - according to the sim

This can be beneficial as you can eq cut and not boost so having more can give more options to make more cuts if that makes sense, I am not a fan of a lot of eq, least as possible to me sounds best

Dual subs allows for a higher crossover point - if you think the bass on the sub is bad - its the same if not worse for your speakers. The upper bass from a sub will be much punchier than from a speaker which is what your after, providing the sub can work up into that range effectively, not all designed to. Small subs are sometimes tuned for extension over upper bass

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Dual subs, naturally, because more is always best...

I have a question, though. If I wire up the pre-amp outs from my receiver to left and right subs, I presume I'll get the "oomph" in stereo, right? No need to just use the subwoofer out? (Il)logically extending from that, what about front left and right and REAR left and right subs to really rock the house?

 

[ellisdj]

More is not always better it what your getting is more modes than bass notes

If you wire up as you say the then the sub will get a full range signal not a only a low pass signal - you will then need to set the crossover on the sub for a clean crossover otherwise you will be getting double bass - this doesnt sound good and is not better for being double. This is extremely difficult to do by ear.

If you want to engage the sub for music run the receiver in stereo or whatever mode uses subs it will then use the internal crossover and bass management as well

 

[CnoEvil]

FWIW. My advice is - Go sealed with at least a 1000W amp and DSP. Stick with brands that specialise in Subs. Unless I had a very awkward room, I'd rather have one great sub, than two OK ones.

 

[ellisdj]

Ask richmagnus if he agrees with what
He had a £6k paradigm sub 2 with perfect bass kit.
So oodles of power and a top quality dsp and sub

He now gets better bass off 2 small 400w subs that cost less than £1k each.

 

[nugget2014]

tomorrow i'll try and see if i do actually have a 35hz peak by running some test tones on youtube (if it will actually work..) and see if i have the suck out at 70-80 too

 

[CnoEvil]

Ask richmagnus if he agrees with what
He had a £6k paradigm sub 2 with perfect bass kit.
So oodles of power and a top quality dsp and sub

He now gets better bass off 2 small 400w subs that cost less than £1k each.

In this subjective hobby, what someone else prefers is, by in large, irrelevant...there are too many factors at play.

The idea is to get differing points of view, which then go into the mix for making a decision.

A sensible case can be made for both options...and both options should be put forward for assessment, otherwise the OP has only half a story.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

More is not always better it what your getting is more modes than bass notes

If you wire up as you say the then the sub will get a full range signal not a only a low pass signal - you will then need to set the crossover on the sub for a clean crossover otherwise you will be getting double bass - this doesnt sound good and is not better for being double. This is extremely difficult to do by ear.

If you want to engage the sub for music run the receiver in stereo or whatever mode uses subs it will then use the internal crossover and bass management as well

I think I get what you're saying, but isn't that a bit like the bi-amp / bi-wire vs use the crossover in the speaker argument? On my subs I can change the crossover frequency and use those funny shaped things on the side of my head to get the result I, personally, like. I note some receivers also have separate left and right channel sub outputs as well. Presumably there's a crossover or cout-off circuit inside the receiver box doing the same job as the one in the sub(s)?

 

[CnoEvil]

I heard his Paradigm 15" £3k Sub with PBK.

I got much better bass off a BK XLS400 with some measuring and skill - he even thought so himsel when he came to mine

He does get better bass off the 2 MK V12 subs than the Paradigm sub I heard at his the time before I went there.

Big power is needed from a sealed sub for extension - thats all folly if its in a place in the room where you get no deep bass.

?

To Nugget while your on ebay look up REW and how to use it and start opening the door to much better sound / bass.

If both you and he have heard the options and he agrees with you, then the result is both "better" and preferable (with those Subs)...That doesn't mean that what I said was fundamentally wrong.

 

[nugget2014]

i'll probably impulse buy a pb-2000 tomorrow as i want one really bad. if i pair it with the ikon sub mk2 and keep them both. will it sound weird having 2 different subs playing at the same time, and do i just use the LFE connection for both? luckily my avr allows 2 subs

 

[nugget2014]

dali k14f looks good. not that much power but 14" driver! £899 at superfi

http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-17224-dali-k14f-subwoofer.aspx

 

[ellisdj]

More is not always better it what your getting is more modes than bass notes

If you wire up as you say the then the sub will get a full range signal not a only a low pass signal - you will then need to set the crossover on the sub for a clean crossover otherwise you will be getting double bass - this doesnt sound good and is not better for being double. This is extremely difficult to do by ear.

If you want to engage the sub for music run the receiver in stereo or whatever mode uses subs it will then use the internal crossover and bass management as well

I think I get what you're saying, but isn't that a bit like the bi-amp / bi-wire vs use the crossover in the speaker argument? On my subs I can change the crossover frequency and use those funny shaped things on the side of my head to get the result I, personally, like. I note some receivers also have separate left and right channel sub outputs as well. Presumably there's a crossover or cout-off circuit inside the receiver box doing the same job as the one in the sub(s)?

This has been an option for donkeys years with sub woofers its called high level wiring

Getting proper good bass using this method - Good luck with that

 

[nugget2014]

Just came off the phone with Nick at HomeSound he said I have a very good sub already and the pb-2000 wouldn't be much different at all. He recommended me the sb-2000 instead even though the performance still wouldn't be miles apart. Really stuck on what to do now.

 

[ellisdj]

With the amount of room gain you appear to get a sealed sub seems a better choice.

Hold fire and do your checks to see using yout tube on the frequencies to see what your room is doing compared to the graphs from REW sim. I bet they are pretty accurate, bear in mind spl meters are off especially in the bass region but not bya huge amount 6- 10 db

For reference my room is 18 x 12 x 8 so pretty simialr and I get a simialr bass response to you except I have a huge peak at about 60hz - what REW sim gives me for my room is pretty much bang on

I have just realised you was looking to buy a like for like sub - Nick has given you good advice. If you put another same sub doesnt matter who makes it in the same spot in your room setup the same you will get the same bass at your listening spot. Bass doesnt work like speakers, even speaker bass will be identical to other speakers in the same spot in the room

 

[ellisdj]

I heard his Paradigm 15" £3k Sub with PBK.

I got much better bass off a BK XLS400 with some measuring and skill - he even thought so himsel when he came to mine

He does get better bass off the 2 MK V12 subs than the Paradigm sub I heard at his the time before I went there.

Big power is needed from a sealed sub for extension - thats all folly if its in a place in the room where you get no deep bass.

To Nugget while your on (EDIT You Tube) look up REW and how to use it and start opening the door to much better sound / bass.

 

[bigboss]

Just came off the phone with Nick at HomeSound he said I have a very good sub already and the pb-2000 wouldn't be much different at all. He recommended me the sb-2000 instead even though the performance still wouldn't be miles apart. Really stuck on what to do now. 

What do you think about my previous suggestion then?

Why don't you move first and see if your existing subwoofer gives a better performance in the new room?