Nick suggested the velodyne eq max 12 or 15.. You was right he loves them! Although they don't seem as good as the svs pb-2000 and only go to 25hz..the eq function won't solve any nulls I have in my room but would it solve the 35hz peak of its there?
You need some bass management - what do you currently use - they reduce peaks thats what they do.
That appears to have DCAC which appears to eq your bass - no idea how effective it is though,
It should be reducing your big peak - so you should be covered there - room shaking then is likely bass decay - eq does reduce this but it still might be present in the room. With nothing to absorb big waves it lingers in the room and effects the next sound coming along. Thats what a waterfall measures decay of the sound frequencies in the room. Bass is always much longer to decay as the waves are larger. I think if you try the frequencies 30 - 50hz using you tube you will find out if that is the cause as it will happen then. Le us know if you do that?
I think you would be complaining about bass boom if it wasnt eqing that huge a hump but you have been complaining about lack of punch for a while which I stil think would be solved by dual subs in front corners and high crossovers.
Go on AVForum and speak to RichMagnus and ask what he did to his system / look up his thread on it - it was punchy last time I was there and I did the same with different subs, no going back for me. He uses 2 x 12" 300w sealed subs MK V 12's so not the most powerful by a long way but still produced decent and punchy bass
It should be reducing your big peak - so you should be covered there - room shaking then is likely bass decay - eq does reduce this but it still might be present in the room. With nothing to absorb big waves it lingers in the room and effects the next sound coming along. Thats what a waterfall measures decay of the sound frequencies in the room. Bass is always much longer to decay as the waves are larger. I think if you try the frequencies 30 - 50hz using you tube you will find out if that is the cause as it will happen then. Le us know if you do that?
I think you would be complaining about bass boom if it wasnt eqing that huge a hump but you have been complaining about lack of punch for a while which I stil think would be solved by dual subs in front corners and high crossovers.
Go on AVForum and speak to RichMagnus and ask what he did to his system / look up his thread on it - it was punchy last time I was there and I did the same with different subs, no going back for me. He uses 2 x 12" 300w sealed subs MK V 12's so not the most powerful by a long way but still produced decent and punchy bass
just finished watching jurassic world had it on 35 volume for the last 10 mins and 30 volume for the rest of the filmvery loud and my sub could have kept going no problem, couldnt have it any louder as my surround speaker was crackling (only 1. odd) and i didnt want the police to come knocking.only once in the whole film i felt the bass and that was for 1 second on my leg around when the indominus rex broke into the aviary. the youtube test tones gave some results here they are (same volume for both positions) spl meter 1 inch from centre of subwoofer driver: 35hz 60db 47hz 65db 57hz 70db 68hz 75db 80-95hz 80db spl meter at listening position ear level: 35hz 50db 47hz 53db 57hz 54db 68hz 40db 80-95hz 40db sub is on the right side in corner where alcove is. sofa 1.5 foot from back wall on the left side about 8-9ft from sub
I can only smile when I read through this whole thread. But I'm glad Nick gave you the right advice.
1 inch Listening Positon
35hz 60db 35hz 50db
47hz 65db 47hz 53db
57hz 70db 57hz 54db
68hz 75db 68hz 40db
80-95hz 80db 80-95hz 40db
Assume these are EQ on. If you are using an SPL meter they are not accurate either, but its inaccurate for both
Tough one trying to work this out because I think its obvious the EQ has done its job and evened out your bass for your listening position.
I would have preferred results EQ on and the EQ off to see how much its taking off - it might hammering the eq on the sub and therefore leaning out your sound
You also need a target volume - so use the amp pink noise and set the level to say 75db - then eact freq should be 75db - rising by about 6db from 100hz to 30hz - if we see that its very good which is technically what you appear to have
EDIT - this is why you need to measure as its the only way to know for 100% sure what your getting
35hz 60db 35hz 50db
47hz 65db 47hz 53db
57hz 70db 57hz 54db
68hz 75db 68hz 40db
80-95hz 80db 80-95hz 40db
Assume these are EQ on. If you are using an SPL meter they are not accurate either, but its inaccurate for both
Tough one trying to work this out because I think its obvious the EQ has done its job and evened out your bass for your listening position.
I would have preferred results EQ on and the EQ off to see how much its taking off - it might hammering the eq on the sub and therefore leaning out your sound
You also need a target volume - so use the amp pink noise and set the level to say 75db - then eact freq should be 75db - rising by about 6db from 100hz to 30hz - if we see that its very good which is technically what you appear to have
EDIT - this is why you need to measure as its the only way to know for 100% sure what your getting
ellisdj said:
ill do the eq on vs eq off tomorrow then. regarding the pink noise. do i just keep increasing the volume until the spl meter picks up 75db from each channel then lower/higher the rest to get it even i've always found that part confusing. then after they are all 75 i keep the same volume and run the test on youtube again? sorry for being nooby
Not for this - get the amp to play pink noise through your sub only then with the spl metre at the listening position raise the overal amp volume until you hit a target number on the spl metre.
80 db is a better figure for a sub.
Make sure you select c weighting and slow on the spl metre as well for any testing using it.
What I was struggling with is your db loss you lost 40 db at 80 -90hz that's a lot.
Also use the sub volume to increase its overall level rather than upping the sub channel level on the Sony. This is for general use not this test.
What level do you have your sub set at on the Sony?
Where is the volume set on the dali sub?
Do you have the crossover on the dali sub fully open or off?
80 db is a better figure for a sub.
Make sure you select c weighting and slow on the spl metre as well for any testing using it.
What I was struggling with is your db loss you lost 40 db at 80 -90hz that's a lot.
Also use the sub volume to increase its overall level rather than upping the sub channel level on the Sony. This is for general use not this test.
What level do you have your sub set at on the Sony?
Where is the volume set on the dali sub?
Do you have the crossover on the dali sub fully open or off?
ellisdj said:
80% gain +10db on amp then bass +10 which adds it to speakers and sub so running 20db hot
Thats ridiculous to have it set like that +10db for bass is not right.
+10db on the sub is not right either - but 80% volume on the subwoofer volume seems right.
Have you got the crossover on the sub fully open?
Have you def got the sub lead coming out of the correct LFE phono socket on the back of the Sony Receiiver?
What cable are you using there? Have you tried another?
What are you main speaker levels set to on the Sony?
+10db on the sub is not right either - but 80% volume on the subwoofer volume seems right.
Have you got the crossover on the sub fully open?
Have you def got the sub lead coming out of the correct LFE phono socket on the back of the Sony Receiiver?
What cable are you using there? Have you tried another?
What are you main speaker levels set to on the Sony?
Double psot - make most of it
Have you tried turning he Sony EQ system off to see if you get more bass?
Also have you got any dsp setting for the amp like "full flat" or "Engineer" its got a fee dsp modes, turn them on and off to see it makes any difference?
Have you tried turning he Sony EQ system off to see if you get more bass?
Also have you got any dsp setting for the amp like "full flat" or "Engineer" its got a fee dsp modes, turn them on and off to see it makes any difference?
ellisdj said:
no option to adjust any eq just the dsp settings you mentioned. It's on engineer currently. I did the test tones with the dsp on and on engineer again this time
Dsp off 35hz 46db 40hz 50db 50hz 50db 55hz 55db 60hz 50db 70hz 42db 80hz 43db
dsp on 35hz 48db 40hz 41db 50hz 55db 60hz 51db 70hz 40db 80hz 45db
Calibrated speakers to 75db with engineer dsp:
Levels:front left 0db centre 0db (will boost few db for clearer vocals) front right -1db surround right -1.5db surround left -3db surround back left 0db surround back right 1.5db Sub 10db (even with +10 sub and +10 bass it was 80db with the rest at 75db so bit of a boost there as I prefer the sound.
dsp on 35hz 48db 40hz 41db 50hz 55db 60hz 51db 70hz 40db 80hz 45db
Its pretty even but I dont think this is what you want - you have less bass at 35hz than you do 60hz and the spl metre is more inaccurate at 35hz so it could well be 6db less.
You really want 6db more bass not less This could be the EQ pulling it down or the sub running out of puff at thelow end, its not a very powerful sub. We can try and get to that
You also said it measured 80db pink noise but only average 50db for each frequency - thats just not right?
I am surprised you cant turn the bass management off - there must be an option on the remote or something?
I am going to give you something to try - turn the bass back down to level i.e. not +10 for all speakers I dont see that doing you any favours.
I also think the sub channel level should not be + either that seems wrong to me - leave that for this test
"Levels:front left 0db centre 0db (will boost few db for clearer vocals) front right -1db surround right -1.5db surround left -3db surround back left 0db surround back right 1.5db Sub 10db (even with +10 sub and +10 bass it was 80db with the rest at 75db so bit of a boost there as I prefer the sound."
This is something I did recently to rebalance my system after hearing the 8x18's at Gecko really impress me
Get a scene in a film you know well - I used the scene in the Hobbit 2 where Bilbo first meets the dragon - the dragons voice should be proper full and rich and bassy / throaty - mine wasnt at all.
Adjust your speaker channel levels only - try turning these down a lot but equal amounts - whatever you turn them down do the same for them all
Start with -5.0 db for all speakers - test the scene out and see if it sounds more balanced - more bassy
Then work your way down more and more and see if this brings your system into better balance - to achieve the same overall volume you will need to turn overall volume of the receiver up more, but you will be getting technically more bass output at this level.
I run a higher crossover 150hz and I have a monster amp powering 4ohm speakers but I had to back my levels down a huge amount 6db ish to balance with my SVS Ultra turned up high / going hard and now my system has gone off the chart better as a result.
However looking at your numbers if they are half accurate you have got nowhere enough output across the bass range - it should all be around the 80db mark.
I have just looked at measurements I have taken for one of my subs and its all aorund 85db and rises to 89db around 30hz
Its pretty even but I dont think this is what you want - you have less bass at 35hz than you do 60hz and the spl metre is more inaccurate at 35hz so it could well be 6db less.
You really want 6db more bass not less This could be the EQ pulling it down or the sub running out of puff at thelow end, its not a very powerful sub. We can try and get to that
You also said it measured 80db pink noise but only average 50db for each frequency - thats just not right?
I am surprised you cant turn the bass management off - there must be an option on the remote or something?
I am going to give you something to try - turn the bass back down to level i.e. not +10 for all speakers I dont see that doing you any favours.
I also think the sub channel level should not be + either that seems wrong to me - leave that for this test
"Levels:front left 0db centre 0db (will boost few db for clearer vocals) front right -1db surround right -1.5db surround left -3db surround back left 0db surround back right 1.5db Sub 10db (even with +10 sub and +10 bass it was 80db with the rest at 75db so bit of a boost there as I prefer the sound."
This is something I did recently to rebalance my system after hearing the 8x18's at Gecko really impress me
Get a scene in a film you know well - I used the scene in the Hobbit 2 where Bilbo first meets the dragon - the dragons voice should be proper full and rich and bassy / throaty - mine wasnt at all.
Adjust your speaker channel levels only - try turning these down a lot but equal amounts - whatever you turn them down do the same for them all
Start with -5.0 db for all speakers - test the scene out and see if it sounds more balanced - more bassy
Then work your way down more and more and see if this brings your system into better balance - to achieve the same overall volume you will need to turn overall volume of the receiver up more, but you will be getting technically more bass output at this level.
I run a higher crossover 150hz and I have a monster amp powering 4ohm speakers but I had to back my levels down a huge amount 6db ish to balance with my SVS Ultra turned up high / going hard and now my system has gone off the chart better as a result.
However looking at your numbers if they are half accurate you have got nowhere enough output across the bass range - it should all be around the 80db mark.
I have just looked at measurements I have taken for one of my subs and its all aorund 85db and rises to 89db around 30hz
ellisdj said:
turns out the sub was at 50% gain..no wonder I had to eq it to high levels on the amp. I've turned the sub down to 0 on amp and turned the gain on sub to 80%. I'm gonna try one more placement of my sub in left corner next to sofa and see if it helps. Then I will do what you suggested
I was trying to find out what amp your sub has in it class a/b or digital - my BK sub had a class A/B amp and you got a lot of gain from the level only being half way - there wasnt merit in turning it up high - but on the SVS I have my levels turned up as high as poss.
They start at -100db in terms of volume One is -5db and the other -10db. You want the taps on the amp open so they drive the beefy speaker. The level on my processor is -1db i think or -0.5db. Its advised not to overload the analogue input on the sub, thats why +10db seems wrong to me
I would still try reblancing - it will only take you 45minutes or so to try it, my system has gone stupid for music since I have done it - that normally indicates very good things for movies but I have not had any for a few weeks as no screen
They start at -100db in terms of volume One is -5db and the other -10db. You want the taps on the amp open so they drive the beefy speaker. The level on my processor is -1db i think or -0.5db. Its advised not to overload the analogue input on the sub, thats why +10db seems wrong to me
I would still try reblancing - it will only take you 45minutes or so to try it, my system has gone stupid for music since I have done it - that normally indicates very good things for movies but I have not had any for a few weeks as no screen
ellisdj said:
ill upload a photo soon of the new sub placement maybe it will work better. Regarding the sub running out of steam at 30-35hz. No chance. Maybe it was the test videos fault. As I said my sub can do LFE at 30hz no problem. But I just seen a chart of the subs performance and it does have a dip starting at around 30hz but by 40hz it's at the same volume as 20hz, weird! I'll add that photo too ASAP.
most small subs are going to struggle to do that deep bass with enough output without huge power and massive driver excursion - 30hz on the spec sheet doesnt mean a lot in real terms. Look how big the monolith is - prime example
this album should work and show all 3 images. if it does, the empty space in the alcove is where my sub was on the left side. its now in the other corner in picture. i attached the sub chart too. weird how it has more output at 20hz than 30hz..
http://imgur.com/a/ab0YL
http://imgur.com/a/ab0YL
Nugget come on man wise up - the Monolith is twice the size of your dali and is only flat to 30hz and is -6db at 20hz - so thats practically useless at 20hz - with room gain you might get that up
The Big SVS Ported Ultra only goes down to 20hz then extends a bit to 16hz - thats with a huge box and 1000w amp.
If Dali have managed usable 20hz bass from a tiny cube and hardly no power they are masters of the subwoofer universe and everyone would have them.
If they have boosted the low end which is possible that will be sucking up all the subs amp power, more like their hoping for room gain
Look at this subs measurement - an honest one.
Its got a 15inch driver and 725 watts - look how the curve dips as the freq lowers - thats the issue with the small box and - they are relying on room gain to bring that up and the power / boost probably as well
Then compare to this beast - this will outperform the sub above by a fair margin but look at the graph for it - its better but not miles better than the other sub - because it doesnt really mean a lot
The Big SVS Ported Ultra only goes down to 20hz then extends a bit to 16hz - thats with a huge box and 1000w amp.
If Dali have managed usable 20hz bass from a tiny cube and hardly no power they are masters of the subwoofer universe and everyone would have them.
If they have boosted the low end which is possible that will be sucking up all the subs amp power, more like their hoping for room gain
Look at this subs measurement - an honest one.
Its got a 15inch driver and 725 watts - look how the curve dips as the freq lowers - thats the issue with the small box and - they are relying on room gain to bring that up and the power / boost probably as well
Then compare to this beast - this will outperform the sub above by a fair margin but look at the graph for it - its better but not miles better than the other sub - because it doesnt really mean a lot
Just be conscious of it. Look at pa sub woofer designs from Funktion 1 Masters of folded horns - they use the folded horn to extend the bass frequency I dare say to hold on to the power of the driver - they also don't believe in dsp
But if it was easy to make subs do deep bass with a vented sub they would use them
But if it was easy to make subs do deep bass with a vented sub they would use them
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