Dirac Live help required...FIXED

[luckylion100]

Forgive my ignorance because currently I'm off work drugged up to the eye balls on pain killers and other meds but I don't follow your statement quoted below. I'm assuming I'm missing something really obvious here.

"A cable makes NO change to the signal apart from reducing the volume (insignificantly), exactly the same reduction at ALL frequencies. There is NO signal mangling at all."

Are we talking cables?

Hi Luckylion,

Yes - it was just an observation. You indicated that the DSP may be snake oil - but it is not - there is a vast amount of engineering science or maths that needs to be understood for the software to achieve the results it does.

For a cable - nothing at all - it is a bit of wire.

For me - it is understandable, and also bemusing that people consider both the Dirac and cables in the same manner with regards to potential impact on sound. Just an observation.

Regards,

Shadders.

Room correction is something I've rarely given thought to, simply because of my own circumstances i.e living in rented accomodation, moving around etc. I assumed room treatment was an absolute must and I'm sure it is if you're doing it properly... which I'm not (yet)

Gazzip's thread was thoroughly interesting and as I stated earlier, I thought if it is capable of making a fairly noticable improvement to a system such as his then what could it do to my modest, 'non excellent' set up.

As for cables, I'm not getting involved . I get enough grief on here based on speakers! ;-)

Thanks for clarifying, as i said I'm a little slow of late.

 

[ellisdj]

Room treatment is a must if you want to take the sound to places you cant without. Even Gazzip system could be massively improved if his room was better as could mine

I think you need both - I thought treatment was enough on its own - it probably is if you can max it out or have it designed to perfection but even with the lengths I have gone to dirac made a big difference. Not as big as room treatments though.

The impulse response correction is a big plus of this system - probably similar to what is done in the better active speakers negating the need for them

Once you hear a treated room - pretty much all other presentations sound wrong - they can still sound good but still wrong or just not as good as they could sound.

Dirac doesnt show everything or fix everything - it wont fix a rooms overall reverb - it does reduce the effect of reflections but it would probably be better to not have them in the first place unless that is a sound you want I suppose.

Some people say you need reflections, some say some reflections, some say no refelctions.

I think none or controlled only in an ideal world.

 

[ellisdj]

BTW to see impulse response correction click on the button that says impulse

 

[luckylion100]

readings, hiding under the banner of 'Impulse', how bloody dare they?! ;-) Sorry at that time I'd already embarked on an altogether different musical journey, laptops and such like left well behind on the distant horizon.

Right hope these images do it for you, the typical before and after money shot impulse shots. ;-)

 

[ellisdj]

I only know the very basics with this.

If you look at the before you have a massive peak then a dip i am guessing 2 big early reflections.
They are going to ÷ - 0.050

However the post dirac has reduced that somewhat

Dont know the full significance of the improvement but i know the ideal impulse reposne has the impulse followed by a flat line so any variation to that is error

 

[luckylion100]

I only know the very basics with this.

If you look at the before you have a massive peak then a dip i am guessing 2 big early reflections. They are going to ÷ - 0.050

However the post dirac has reduced that somewhat

Dont know the full significance of the improvement but i know the ideal impulse reposne has the impulse followed by a flat line so any variation to that is error

and I will attempt (time allowing) to read up on it. Afraid much of it will go sailing way over my head, but this is a start and the whole concept has really caught my imagination.

Got some help tomorrow, so my daughter is going to help conduct a few more tests.

Thanks again for all your input.

 

[DocG]

readings, hiding under the banner of 'Impulse', how bloody dare they?! ;-) Sorry at that time I'd already embarked on an altogether different musical journey, laptops and such like left well behind on the distant horizon.

Right hope these images do it for you, the typical before and after money shot impulse shots. ;-)

Your impulse plot looks a little 'denser' on the second graph. Though if you measure, they're both about 2 ms. So not sure that's a meaningful difference.

Biggest difference is the lag time before the impulse; it's some 16 ms later in the second graph. That's the time needed to process the signal, I guess...

 

[luckylion100]

readings, hiding under the banner of 'Impulse', how bloody dare they?! ;-) Sorry at that time I'd already embarked on an altogether different musical journey, laptops and such like left well behind on the distant horizon.

Right hope these images do it for you, the typical before and after money shot impulse shots. ;-)

Your impulse plot looks a little 'denser' on the second graph. Though if you measure, they're both about 2 ms. So not sure that's a meaningful difference.

Biggest difference is the lag time before the impulse; it's some 16 ms later in the second graph. That's the time needed to process the signal, I guess...

I'm not sure I can pin point exactly the changes. The other day, the speakers seemed to exhibit a new clarity, which I thought previously impossible, a new sense of authority.

Today I've messed around with speaker positioning, my sub has been moved in towards the centre of the big tv stand, speakers moved outwards and toed in toward the edge of the listening positioning. I ran the measurements, did the optimisation and sat back, somewhat bemused by the results. The soundstage is definitely wider with the vocals pinned to the centre of the image but somewhat withdrawn, like singing from behnd the 55 inch tv. If I position myself further foward on the sofa to my ears it's perfect, near music bliss as far as total clarity and vocals, instrument separation. Everything re soundstage seems to be projected too far back for my tastes or what I'm used to.

On Marvin Gaye's Mercy Mercy me (the Ecology version) the bass from this track is very, very noticable from the sub, position left. There doesn't seem to be the intregration within the system unlike in other tracks or before Dirac. Feel like's there's a big imbalance bass wise at present... time for unboxing of second sub but I'm so tight for space...

I suppose as with lots of upgrades to the inexperienced such as myself something like Dirac Live can leave more questions than answers. Got to read up, I need to find that edition of Dirac Live for Dummies. ;-)

Edit: the thought has arisen that perhaps you really need a top notch system ( way beyond mine) for Dirac Live to impart seriously noticable improvements that can not only be measured by clearly heard...

Below, today's meausrement readings.

 

[Frank Harvey]

You're using the bass end too aggressively. The graph on the other page shows a target curve with bass being boosted by up to about 12dB under 30Hz - that's a recipe for disaster. The graph above is boosting below about 55Hz up to the same degree. Adding a dB or two you can get away with, but ideally you want to be leaving these lower frequencies well alone.

 

[ellisdj]

The bigger problem is lack i
Of bass compared upper bass lower mids.

By moving your sub to the middle of the front wall you have removed some boundary gain.

If you have a small sealed sub they need as much boundary gain as poss.

If you have 2 sub put them in the front corners of the room. Get as much low end room gain as you can.

In contrast moving your speakers out more has probably put them closer to the boundary and increased their upper bass output.

I dont think dirac boosts freq like david suggests. Its far cleverer than that.

I think it works by reducing the overall level somehow not boosting 10db etc.

Use your measurments to get as close to the target curve as you can by moving your speakers and subs about.

Also when you take the measurements be mindful of where you place the mic. The instructions specifically state dont measure too close together otherwise dirac will take too much off.

Sure it suggests a metre area even for the single chair option.

 

[Gazzip]

The bigger problem is lack i Of bass compared upper bass lower mids.

By moving your sub to the middle of the front wall you have removed some boundary gain.

If you have a small sealed sub they need as much boundary gain as poss.

If you have 2 sub put them in the front corners of the room. Get as much low end room gain as you can.

In contrast moving your speakers out more has probably put them closer to the boundary and increased their upper bass output.

I dont think dirac boosts freq like david suggests. Its far cleverer than that.

I think it works by reducing the overall level somehow not boosting 10db etc.

Use your measurments to get as close to the target curve as you can by moving your speakers and subs about.

Also when you take the measurements be mindful of where you place the mic. The instructions specifically state dont measure too close together otherwise dirac will take too much off.

Sure it suggests a metre area even for the single chair option.

Not sure about the software version, but by default the DDRC-22 introduces 10 dB of attenuation in order to provide headroom for the EQ boost that Dirac Live may introduce. So it reduces everything around a trough rather than simply boosting...

 

[Frank Harvey]

It doesn't matter, you're still boosting the very low bass by up to 12dB in relation to the rest of the signal. How much extra cone excursion is that?

The -10dB attenuation will only really help in regard to not overloading the input to the sub.

 

[DocG]

At what frequency do you cross over to the sub, lion?

 

[Gazzip]

It doesn't matter, you're still boosting the very low bass by up to 12dB in relation to the rest of the signal. How much extra cone excursion is that?

The -10dB attenuation will only really help in regard to not overloading the input to the sub.

Sorry David, I thought you were referring to overloading due to the boost.

 

[shadders]

It doesn't matter, you're still boosting the very low bass by up to 12dB in relation to the rest of the signal. How much extra cone excursion is that?

The -10dB attenuation will only really help in regard to not overloading the input to the sub.

Hi,

I agree, attenuating the rest of the frequency range to achieve a level frequency response is the same as boosting the bass frequencies - as soon as you turn up the music, the bass is boosted by 10dB relatively.

It depends on how the sub woofer has been integrated - is the Dirac applying a high pass filter at 70Hz for example to the main analogue signal to the DM10's ?, such that no frequency below 70Hz is applied to the DM10's?

Luckylion100 said his neighbour was banging on his floor - so maybe try it without the sub woofer. I have some small sealed enclosure speakers - and they are what they are - bass light. So i would not be trying to extend the bass at all with these speakers - as has been stated before - the amplifier may not be capable of this extension for long periods - or the cone travel may be an issue.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[DocG]

Edit: the thought has arisen that perhaps you really need a top notch system ( way beyond mine) for Dirac Live to impart seriously noticable improvements that can not only be measured by clearly heard...

No. Not at all. On one hifi show or another, DEQX demonstrated their speaker/room correction using broadcasting horns. The result was said to be astonishing. I'll see if I can find a link to the actual report...

EDIT: here is John Atkinson's brief impressions of said demo. Apparently not subtle. And not über high end speakers either *biggrin*

 

[Infiniteloop]

Edit: the thought has arisen that perhaps you really need a top notch system ( way beyond mine) for Dirac Live to impart seriously noticable improvements that can not only be measured by clearly heard...

No. Not at all. On one hifi show or another, DEQX demonstrated their speaker/room correction using broadcasting horns. The result was said to be astonishing. I'll see if I can find a link to the actual report...

EDIT: here is John Atkinson's brief impressions of said demo. Apparently not subtle. And not über high end speakers either *biggrin*

Doc, How would you rationalise either Dirac or DEQX with SAM on the Devialet? I presume since SAM just adjusts specific speaker output, it should remain 'on' alongside whatever DSP you're using....?

 

[Gazzip]

Edit: the thought has arisen that perhaps you really need a top notch system ( way beyond mine) for Dirac Live to impart seriously noticable improvements that can not only be measured by clearly heard...

No. Not at all. On one hifi show or another, DEQX demonstrated their speaker/room correction using broadcasting horns. The result was said to be astonishing. I'll see if I can find a link to the actual report...

EDIT: here is John Atkinson's brief impressions of said demo. Apparently not subtle. And not über high end speakers either *biggrin*

Doc, How would you rationalise either Dirac or DEQX with SAM on the Devialet? I presume since SAM just adjusts specific speaker output, it should remain 'on' alongside whatever DSP you're using....?

I would turn off SAM if using another DSP, otherwise you will be double DSP-ing, and the SAM will attempt to "rectify" the other DSP or visa Versa depending where in the chain the other DSP is. You would lose the SAM's protection mode of course, but do you really need that as a functioning adult? *biggrin* I for one have never blown a pair of speakers and don't therefore see the need to be protected from doing so.

Edit: I would also worry that the SAM being an "active" DSP would behave during the wave sweep setup of the other DSP, but would then act in an unwanted way during real music playback.

 

[DocG]

Edit: the thought has arisen that perhaps you really need a top notch system ( way beyond mine) for Dirac Live to impart seriously noticable improvements that can not only be measured by clearly heard...

No. Not at all. On one hifi show or another, DEQX demonstrated their speaker/room correction using broadcasting horns. The result was said to be astonishing. I'll see if I can find a link to the actual report...

EDIT: here is John Atkinson's brief impressions of said demo. Apparently not subtle. And not über high end speakers either *biggrin*

Doc, How would you rationalise either Dirac or DEQX with SAM on the Devialet? I presume since SAM just adjusts specific speaker output, it should remain 'on' alongside whatever DSP you're using....?

I haven't tried both SAM en the DEQX together. I think SAM + DEQX is at least not worse than DEQX alone; after all, the DEQX measures the end result of the whole hifi chain, and then corrects what is needed. It'd be interesting to find out wether DEQX would apply any further driver correction on top of SAM. But all room influences would be left for the DEQX to correct anyway.

I use my HDP-3 as an active XO too. That's a feature I can't combine with the Devialet (since it has only two channels). It's this function that sets the HDP-3 (and '4 and '5) apart from Dirac too.

BTW, as for my DEQX, the XO is most important IMO, then driver correction; I'd rank room correction third. Icing on the cake!

 

[DocG]

I would turn off SAM if using another DSP, otherwise you will be double DSP-ing, and the SAM will attempt to "rectify" the other DSP or visa Versa depending where in the chain the other DSP is. You would lose the SAM's protection mode of course, but do you really need that as a functioning adult? *biggrin* I for one have never blown a pair of speakers and don't therefore see the need to be protected from doing so.

Hi Gazzip,

Our posts crossed.

The major difference between SAM and the other solutions, is that SAM is a fixed signal correction, specified for a single speaker (based upon measurements in the Devialet anechoic chamber). So SAM will never try to rectify anything. And other DSP protocols will look at the end result of the whole system (with or without the room and speaker position), and correct where needed.

Edit: I would also worry that the SAM being an "active" DSP would behave during the wave sweep setup of the other DSP, but would then act in an unwanted way during real music playback.

Same remark: SAM is fixed, and can't behave differently in different situations (as I understand it).

 

[Gazzip]

I would turn off SAM if using another DSP, otherwise you will be double DSP-ing, and the SAM will attempt to "rectify" the other DSP or visa Versa depending where in the chain the other DSP is. You would lose the SAM's protection mode of course, but do you really need that as a functioning adult? *biggrin* I for one have never blown a pair of speakers and don't therefore see the need to be protected from doing so.

Hi Gazzip,

Our posts crossed.

The major difference between SAM and the other solutions, is that SAM is a fixed signal correction, specified for a single speaker (based upon measurements in the Devialet anechoic chamber). So SAM will never try to rectify anything. And other DSP protocols will look at the end result of the whole system (with or without the room and speaker position), and correct where needed.

Edit: I would also worry that the SAM being an "active" DSP would behave during the wave sweep setup of the other DSP, but would then act in an unwanted way during real music playback.

Same remark: SAM is fixed, and can't behave differently in different situations (as I understand it).

Cool if that is the case, although calling it Speaker "Active" Management (SAM) is a little misleading... From what you are saying it digitally smooths out and flattens a given speaker brand/model's FR, yes?

 

[DocG]

I would turn off SAM if using another DSP, otherwise you will be double DSP-ing, and the SAM will attempt to "rectify" the other DSP or visa Versa depending where in the chain the other DSP is. You would lose the SAM's protection mode of course, but do you really need that as a functioning adult? *biggrin* I for one have never blown a pair of speakers and don't therefore see the need to be protected from doing so.

Hi Gazzip,

Our posts crossed.

The major difference between SAM and the other solutions, is that SAM is a fixed signal correction, specified for a single speaker (based upon measurements in the Devialet anechoic chamber). So SAM will never try to rectify anything. And other DSP protocols will look at the end result of the whole system (with or without the room and speaker position), and correct where needed.

Edit: I would also worry that the SAM being an "active" DSP would behave during the wave sweep setup of the other DSP, but would then act in an unwanted way during real music playback.

Same remark: SAM is fixed, and can't behave differently in different situations (as I understand it).

Cool if that is the case, although calling it Speaker "Active" Management (SAM) is a little misleading... From what you are saying it digitally smooths out and flattens a given speaker brand/model's FR, yes?

I never read much technical explanation by Devialet (not their forte, if you ask me).

As I understand it, Devialet measured all these speakers in their dead room. And then wrote a specific protocol for every separate model, to anticipate on anomalies in FR (most noticeable is the bass boost), and IIRC phase distortion too. They correct the problems before they occur, so to speak. But it's indeed not 'active' in the way Dirac, DEQX, RoomPerfect, Antimode et al. are.

 

[ellisdj]

Maybe sam tries to improve a speakers power response.
In essence making a better in room peforming speaker

Thats just a guess btw.

 

[Infiniteloop]

I would turn off SAM if using another DSP, otherwise you will be double DSP-ing, and the SAM will attempt to "rectify" the other DSP or visa Versa depending where in the chain the other DSP is. You would lose the SAM's protection mode of course, but do you really need that as a functioning adult? *biggrin* I for one have never blown a pair of speakers and don't therefore see the need to be protected from doing so.

Hi Gazzip,

Our posts crossed.

The major difference between SAM and the other solutions, is that SAM is a fixed signal correction, specified for a single speaker (based upon measurements in the Devialet anechoic chamber). So SAM will never try to rectify anything. And other DSP protocols will look at the end result of the whole system (with or without the room and speaker position), and correct where needed.

Edit: I would also worry that the SAM being an "active" DSP would behave during the wave sweep setup of the other DSP, but would then act in an unwanted way during real music playback.

Same remark: SAM is fixed, and can't behave differently in different situations (as I understand it).

Cool if that is the case, although calling it Speaker "Active" Management (SAM) is a little misleading... From what you are saying it digitally smooths out and flattens a given speaker brand/model's FR, yes?

I never read much technical explanation by Devialet (not their forte, if you ask me).

As I understand it, Devialet measured all these speakers in their dead room. And then wrote a specific protocol for every separate model, to anticipate on anomalies in FR (most noticeable is the bass boost), and IIRC phase distortion too. They correct the problems before they occur, so to speak. But it's indeed not 'active' in the way Dirac, DEQX, RoomPerfect, Antimode et al. are.

That's my understanding of SAM too. It makes the speakers it's feeding perform at their absolute utmost. Therefore if you 'sample' them in situ for Dirac etc. You should get the best results.

Might be worth asking Devialet though.

 

[luckylion100]

especially DocG towards the end of the thread. I've ordered the upgrade to full Dirac Live (could take a couple of days according to the Minidsp website). Just as well as I'm still physcially recovering from ill health and haven't been great since last posting here.

I've realised that there's an almost endless amount of info to learn and hopefully absorb and I learn best by doing myself, trial and error.

I'm limited in my current room as to set up positioning, there were suggestions of moving the sub/s to better positions, it's impossible here. It's a living room, unique in shape, large bay windows and a strange turret window in one corner.

I suppose the reason I pulled the trigger was that Dirac Live can be put to great use no matter where I live and I'll be moving (hopefully to a more acoustically synpathetic) home within the next year. For now speakers may have to remain where they are and it will be a good test for both myself and Dirac Live.

ta everyone.