Dirac Live - First Impressions

[insider9]

I haven't heard Dirac Live....but have not preferred any DSP that I have heard on 2 Channel.

On my AVR600, I much prefer Stereo Direct.

In which case it was done wrong or you used a wrong solution. Just an impulse correction would improve what you have by a large margin not even touching frequency response.

Possibly.

As a family, we all played musical instruments and would occasionally play stuff as a family. The sound didn't need DSP to sound as good as our talents would allow.

In my case, I have used the EQ provided by my AV receiver, through its microphone.

I judge a sound by characteristics that can't be measured.

That was really my point. Wrong tool for the job. I too come at it ultimately from musicians perspective although not professionally trained but still. Spend a lot of my childhood around live instruments. One of the reason I use ribbon tweeters even though they are measurably worse. Yet, sound more realistic with cymbals but also horns, cellos, etc.

I'd love it if you were nearer and I could show you what DSP can do. I don't use Dirac Live but do it manually. Takes more time but gives you freedom and is free. You've used IIR filters which I'm not a fan of. Should you only correct the impulse response, phase response which is only possible with FIR. You would get a sharper image with the same frequency response should you wish. But I would suggest removing room interaction (usually below 300Hz).

The whole argument about bass and what they've heard in the studio is quite academic. I can tell you with certainty they must've heard bass in rehearsals. And not just being there but clearly. When you're playing you need to hear one another. Hence as a rule through normal passages you need to be able make out bass lines. But that's only partially to do with loudness. That's my take on it.

 

[CnoEvil]

I think I'm in some ways lucky with my listening space...aside from the suspended floor, which is much less of a issue now.

It is large Victorian room, around 14ft x 22ft x 11ft high. It has a bay window (with curtains), so acoustically better than square. It is carpeted, with a large rug on top of that. It does have corners where the bass is exaggerated, but generally, it seem to big enough to allow the music space to breathe.

 

[abacus]

Dirac is correct in that all electronica is flat, however when played in the clubs over the PA the bass is boosted by the DJ/Mixer to give the sound you are used too, if you want it to sound the same in your house, then choose flat (Or slight downward curve) in Dirac and use an external EQ to get the sound as you want, if you don’t do this and leave the humps in the response, then while electronica will sound great, other types of music will sound rubbish. (Dirac like all room correction is just that, it is not designed to alter the sound for different types of music)

Bill

 

[insider9]

I think I'm in some ways lucky with my listening space...aside from the suspended floor, which is much less of a issue now.

It is large Victorian room, around 14ft x 22ft x 11ft high. It has a bay window (with curtains), so acoustically better than square. It is carpeted, with a large rug on top of that. It does have corners where the bass is exaggerated, but generally, it seem to big enough to allow the music space to breathe.

 

That sounds lovely in terms of size and proportions. Particularly the high ceiling, 8ft ceilings are awful.

I'm not saying everyone needs DSP. However DSP used in a right way can improve I believe every system.

 

[ellisdj]

some great short videos on you tube by acoustic fields on room sizes and what's good.
your lucky in that room will get in the its big enough for good sound category mine doesn't

https://youtu.be/g-DT5fM-nAU

https://youtu.be/bipMuBQmvVY

https://youtu.be/6-dOSD1KoNU

 

[ellisdj]

bay Windows are murder for bass that's a separate room within a room.
bigger is better but it needs to be 40x40x40 to not have any bass problems.
every room has bass problems below 40x40x40 at that size you have other problems that small rooms still have reverb and echo.
there are no lucky rooms a room is a room they are all the same

sorry not trying to be an ass CNo btw just being black and white dude sorry if came across harsh mate I was rushing to post this and didn't come across in a nice way sorry

 

[Deleted member 108165]

I'm not saying everyone needs DSP. However DSP used in a right way can improve I believe every system.

I seldom disagree with you Insider, you are spot-on with both your comments. I would just like to add that Dirac is not a magic wand, it needs time and knowledge to get it right... two resources that I unfortunately do not have in abundance *smile*

 

[JMac]

https://imgur.com/a/Pl2p5

Okay, so the above is my initial curve with the recommended fix highlighted in the red line. Struggling to work out how to embed in the thread here.

 

[ellisdj]

I can't get that to work?
do you have another way of posting a link to the image?

 

[Gray]

Try this link Ellis:

https://imgur.com/a/Pl2p5

 

[JMac]

https://www.minidsp.com/support/community-powered-tutorials/263-custom-dirac-live-target-curves

This is actually quite informative about bulding custom curves. It actually suggests using 0db as the boost if you like, dropping the other frequencies to negatives in order to provide the lower frequency boost. Then just turn the volume up to compensate for the lower listening level.

 

[ellisdj]

https://www.minidsp.com/support/community-powered-tutorials/263-custom-dirac-live-target-curves

This is actually quite informative about bulding custom curves. It actually suggests using 0db as the boost if you like, dropping the other frequencies to negatives in order to provide the lower frequency boost. Then just turn the volume up to compensate for the lower listening level. 

I was going to suggest that but you don't need to you have an incredible starting point there to work with I wish mine was as good as that.

you will get perfect sound with that.

I am making some videos give me some time and I will be back with advice

 

[JMac]

No worries, I'm busy playing with curves lol.

 

[newlash09]

Please keep it going. Knowledge for free

 

[paulkebab]

as I'm currently playing with REW and getting very good results but I've got Dirac in the back of my mind too. What you said about 0dB as the 'peak' and work down is spot on, you should rarely boost things and if you do so, try to keep it to +2dB, keep the adjacent differences to a 5dB max then down-level. I look forward to your future posts as I'm wondering if Dirac will actually be worth getting, considering the results I'm so far achieving.

 

[ellisdj]

you dont need to boost the room has boosted things for you - makes sense to use that wisely - if you go -db with the eq your then removing more than you want to.

IME this never works out for the better in sq - you want to EQ as minmum as possible.

I need the time to go over this - struggling for it.

If I say +6db that doesnt mean boost it - its means thats the target balance,

Looking at the graphs I am guessing its a warm sound that can get quite shouty with certain music and boomy with some

 

[ellisdj]

you dont need to boost the room has boosted things for you - makes sense to use that wisely - if you go -db with the eq your then removing more than you want to.

IME this never works out for the better in sq - you want to EQ as minmum as possible.

I need the time to go over this - struggling for it.

If I say +6db that doesnt mean boost it - its means thats the target balance,

Looking at the graphs I am guessing its a warm sound that can get quite shouty with certain music and boomy with some

 

[ellisdj]

 

[paulkebab]

I had that 200Hz dip as that's where I'm playing around, trying to remove some real colouration. Led Zeppelin's Bron-Yr-Aur is an absolute mess to listen to without cutting at that point.

Sorry for any distraction from the OP.

 

[ellisdj]

Look at the circles.

The RED Circle is excessive bass in the 50 - 70hz region - by excessive its 15db hot thats huge and the reason for the rumble - thats one note bass right there as that is going to swamp the rest.

The Pink is excessive bass at 100hz ish - thats going make music sound punchy but again mask detail

The Orange is excessive mid range - I am guessing making thr mid range sound big and expressive - maybe quite forward in the sound stage and even though its pretty even its also way in excess in a certain range and I am guessing music will harden up and come across shouty

The yellows are the potential causes of your treble problems you mentioned at the very start - however your treble is rolling off so it might not actually be freq replated although you do have 3 anomolies.

Positives

Few things to consider the overall shape of the curve is very good and easy to work with - not excessive nulls mostly peaks which is so lucky you dont realise. I also have a 200hz null its a bastard

I am wondering if you cant toe the speakers in more to get that treble up - something to consider.

We can use the natural shape of the curve to our advantange.

This is very common and actually nowhere near as bad as I was expecting - However back to reality this is a smoothed averaged graph - if it was not smoothed you would be feeling quite sick right now I can assure you.

The truth - you need Dirac - you need bass management - you need mid range management and you need treble management.

 

[ellisdj]

I an ideal world ime opinion you would want your bass to look like that - that would be bass to +6b at 30hz but not boosting anything using natural room gain which 99% of the time you are going to get - or make sure you get with the right speakers etc

Most speakers dont extend to 30hz - yours are rolling off at 40hz which is very decent - you can try and squeeze a little more extension from them however I wouldnt bother instead set the curve like this

You want to imitate the curve of +6db at 30hz but finish it where the speakers naturally roll of - your then using the rooms natural gain - but eqing out about 10db worth of excess in the 50 - 70hz range - big difference to bass translation

We are also using some of the 150hz peak that will give you the punchy sound your used to.

In the upper mids to treble I prefer a flatter curve out to where the speakers naturally roll off - you can probably get that treble up with some toe in.

You might have toed out before because the mid range was getting congested (orange circle)

After the correction you might prefer more toe in as it might help with a more solid centre image.

Your going to get a few nulls after the correcton - you might be able to move the speakers to improve them - however where dirac is so clever is the nulls are far less obvious and the sound transitions are much smoother - less obvious too loud to too quiet - smooth instead

Nulls are still a null you either take them on the chin or try and fix them - be warned its very hard

 

[insider9]

I'm not saying everyone needs DSP. However DSP used in a right way can improve I believe every system.

I seldom disagree with you Insider, you are spot-on with both your comments. I would just like to add that Dirac is not a magic wand, it needs time and knowledge to get it right... two resources that I unfortunately do not have in abundance *smile*

Thanks Doug good to hear And I very much agree, excellent point. As Ellisdj proved above it does indeed.

 

[ellisdj]

compared to hours and hours with REW manual eq - not getting thr result you want never being quite happy with the finished result and always tweaking Dirac makes life so easy with no penalty.

£350 is a steal imo

 

[Deleted member 108165]

It may be a steal for you but as I only earn average UK salary that figure is not far off one weeks net income for me. For £350 I want Dirac to supply an engineer to set it up for me too. We haven't all got money to burn! I consider myself reasonably well paid compared to some of the guys on here.

 

[ellisdj]

sorry mate I didnt mean to offend you buddy - I am talking relative to what it does - and what skill level and experience you need to do it manually.

there is no engineer - sorry all you have got is me - I give all my time and help out to you lot for free