People still trotting out the metal tweeters sound harsh and bright nonsense. That was true when they were first introduced onto the market and was due mainly to the breakup of the tweeter being at the high end of people's hearing, around 20kHz. Modern metal tweeter's have natural breakups well out of the range of human hearing. I had a pair of Celestion's about 30 years ago with metal tweeters and they could be harsh. The metal tweeter on my KEF LS50 is as smooth as they come.
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Vladimir said:
I would concur with that. Most manufacturers of tweeters just try to shove the break-up mode of a drive unit out of the audible range. Most materials commonly used for tweeter domes can do that, some are better but cone termination, magnet structures, baffle design, reflections both internal and external and optimizing a Xover to particular drivers play just as important a role. Linearity of response is important and a result of rigidity, lightness and damping. Uneven frequency response in tweeters can result in a 'harsh' sound.
In my humble experience solely choosing the diaphragm material as the reason how something sounds is slightly simplifying it.
Most manufacturers would probably love to use Diamond or Berrylium for their dome tweeter but apart from being prohibitively expensive it won't rescue a tweeter (or speaker) that has been badly designed otherwise.
Thats why a holistic approach to speaker design (and indeed building a whole system) is at least as important as individual ingredients.
You can't make a silk purse out of a cows ear (I love that phrase and will use it at least once a week from here on) but sometimes sometimes carefully crafted out of lesser stuff could well end up sounding better.
What do I know 🙂
PS. If they above comes across like a lecture ... it isn't.
I have (unfortunately) never designed/developed a tweeter in my life and my 'knowledge' simply comes from Magazine tests (thanks K.H and N.K) plus some google doodling. That and the use of speakers with different tweeter diaphragms (ownership of ribbons or electrostatics has eluded me so far).
Still, interesting once you look into it.
Would be nice to have some drive unit manufacturers come on here and give their practical knowledge!
I have (unfortunately) never designed/developed a tweeter in my life and my 'knowledge' simply comes from Magazine tests (thanks K.H and N.K) plus some google doodling. That and the use of speakers with different tweeter diaphragms (ownership of ribbons or electrostatics has eluded me so far).
Still, interesting once you look into it.
Would be nice to have some drive unit manufacturers come on here and give their practical knowledge!
I would just add that breakups in midrange drivers can result in harsh sound in the presence frequency area (upper midrange), but we think it's coming from the tweeter. Midrange driver having breakup in its top end, or tweeter breaking up in its bottom end where it meets the midrange driver is the more usual source of harshness than tweeter ringing in the very high kHz. If this occurs it is not because a tweeter is metal dome one, but because the designer used drivers beyond their safe operating area, too extended application.
Ideally you want the tweeter to start where the midrange stops, but well extended, undistorted and good sounding drivers don't come cheap, even if you build them inhouse. This is why many speakers have large FR dips and valeys where drivers meet. If this is in the presence area they may sound warm and dull.
B&W CM1 frequency response. Punchy, airy, warm, sweet and dull sounding. The crossover frequency is at 4kHz and we can see the midbass woofer is breaking up after 1.5kHz, but since the troubled area is dipping -6db, no harshness is noticable. Obviously B&W did some compromises facing the physical limitations of the driver and cabinet.
Ideally you want the tweeter to start where the midrange stops, but well extended, undistorted and good sounding drivers don't come cheap, even if you build them inhouse. This is why many speakers have large FR dips and valeys where drivers meet. If this is in the presence area they may sound warm and dull.
B&W CM1 frequency response. Punchy, airy, warm, sweet and dull sounding. The crossover frequency is at 4kHz and we can see the midbass woofer is breaking up after 1.5kHz, but since the troubled area is dipping -6db, no harshness is noticable. Obviously B&W did some compromises facing the physical limitations of the driver and cabinet.
In many cases the bass/mid drivers produce (relatively) large amounts of distortion as they approach breakup, this will be present at frequencies well above the crossover frequencies, ie harmonics of signals that are below the crossover.
Unruly and poorly controlled bass/mid cones are often the reason some speakers sound bright or harsh, often nothing to do with the tweeter at all.
Unruly and poorly controlled bass/mid cones are often the reason some speakers sound bright or harsh, often nothing to do with the tweeter at all.
I reckon, between the three theorists of us we can design the perfect speaker, boggit can put it together and one of our resident high end system owners/high earners can pay for it.
Problemo solved ;-)
Ah, only kidding.
Problemo solved ;-)
Ah, only kidding.
Blacksabbath25
Well-known member
- Sep 20, 2015
- 309
- 88
- 18,970
So I just need to get myself a degree to understand speak technology then I will understand lol . The trouble is when you buy speakers it does not say on the box that they are bright , dull and so on . I no when you sit there in a demo room your should no this things but not everyone does I can say to the dealer that I want a speakers that sound nise and what music I listen too and they may sound good in a show room but ones you take them home and then they do not sound the same after they have run in sometime you can not get your money back and the only dealers I no around here where I come from who will refund you money back is richer sounds after 14 days I am not sure if Sevenoaks does the same so in some ways it is a bit of a gamble buying hi fi a specially if the demo was not done properly and how good the sales man was or if he just interested in selling any rubbish just to make money . That's what sites like this are good for to pick people brains on there experiences and to do your own home work before parting with you hard earned money . So in a nutshell what make of speaker + amp would a wise move too ? A budget say £2000 for amp and the speakers my is room 7 by 3 no floor standing speakers at this time they have to be ones I can but on speaker brackets do not mind buying secondhand..sound needs to be detailed , no booming bass , good warm sound not neutral , good open sound stage something basically you can hear the instruments in detail and vocals well is it possible with this budge ?
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