DACS

[Muddywaterstones]

I'm looking at upgrading my Arcam mini-blink. There are a few avenues of questioning to pursue before making a decision. Will the difference between Bluetooth, Airplay, Spotify Connect or a wired pc connection really be striking? Is there any difference between a Burr Brown, Wolfson, Sabre etc chip? Is MQA a format worth pursuing or just some foo to relieve us of some hard earned shillings?

To be honest, Spotify via bluetooth is not at all bad. I've put on CDs with the same track simultaneously playing on Spotify: flicking back and forth between outputs in real time the difference was not huge. There was a difference but not night and day.

I feel dirty saying that on a hi-fi forum but so be it.

Of what I have seen the Cambridge CXN ticks all my boxes. It even has a co-axial input, which may or may not give my CD player (a Rotel RCD-02 of a certain age) a boost.. Unfortunately the Cambridge is about 3 times my budget!

Next in line is the Bluesound Node 2. This one claims 32 bits/192 khz for certain functions. It has MQA (which I'm not convinced about as a source though I like the idea). Again a little over budget but I could stretch.

Now for the world of Yamaha. The WXC -50 is about bang on budget and seems to have all that I would need into the immediate future. It comes with a Sabre chip of some type. Alternatively; the NP-S303 has most of what I would need but comes with a Burr-Brown chip. Then there is the CD-N301 which I can get at a good price and seems to have all I need; even going as far as to replace the creaky Rotel for disc spinning. It too has a Burr Brown chip. The only reason the chip becomes a question is because Yamaha's more expensive stuff seems to use the Sabre. I have no loyalty here one way or another but wonder is there a reason why Yamaha use one chip on their cheaper stuff and a different one on the next price up.

After that there are a couple of things by Pioneer, Marantz, Denon and Onkyo that have caught my eye. Of all of them the Pioneer looks the classiest if not exactly value compared to Yamaha. Project seem to have a few interesting products (again stretching the budget) which I can order online but I prefer to use my local dealers.

Thus far, the WXC-50 is leading my thoughts both on capability and budget. Is there any product I've missed out?

 

[Muddywaterstones]

Seems that editing the post has duplicated it. Please ignore the other one.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I'm looking at upgrading my Arcam mini-blink. There are a few avenues of questioning to pursue before making a decision. Will the difference between Bluetooth, Airplay, Spotify Connect or a wired pc connection really be striking? Is there any difference between a Burr Brown, Wolfson, Sabre etc chip? Is MQA a format worth pursuing or just some foo to relieve us of some hard earned shillings?

To be honest, Spotify via bluetooth is not at all bad. I've put on CDs with the same track simultaneously playing on Spotify: flicking back and forth between outputs in real time the difference was not huge. There was a difference but not night and day.

I feel dirty saying that on a hi-fi forum but so be it.

Of what I have seen the Cambridge CXN ticks all my boxes. It even has a co-axial input, which may or may not give my CD player (a Rotel RCD-02 of a certain age) a boost.. Unfortunately the Cambridge is about 3 times my budget!

Next in line is the Bluesound Node 2. This one claims 32 bits/192 khz for certain functions. It has MQA (which I'm not convinced about as a source though I like the idea). Again a little over budget but I could stretch.

Now for the world of Yamaha. The WXC -50 is about bang on budget and seems to have all that I would need into the immediate future. It comes with a Sabre chip of some type. Alternatively; the NP-S303 has most of what I would need but comes with a Burr-Brown chip. Then there is the CD-N301 which I can get at a good price and seems to have all I need; even going as far as to replace the creaky Rotel for disc spinning. It too has a Burr Brown chip. The only reason the chip becomes a question is because Yamaha's more expensive stuff seems to use the Sabre. I have no loyalty here one way or another but wonder is there a reason why Yamaha use one chip on their cheaper stuff and a different one on the next price up.

After that there are a couple of things by Pioneer, Marantz, Denon and Onkyo that have caught my eye. Of all of them the Pioneer looks the classiest if not exactly value compared to Yamaha. Project seem to have a few interesting products (again stretching the budget) which I can order online but I prefer to use my local dealers.

Thus far, the WXC-50 is leading my thoughts both on capability and budget. Is there any product I've missed out?

Interesting post and hello to you. id ask what you are trying to achieve as if you are bluetoothing music to your system and it’s souding the same as a reasonable CD player, might amps or speakers be what you want to upgrade if overall sound quality is the aim. I don’t think there are benefits of mqa having tested the node 2 and it’s mqa functionality. No real difference to cd quality streamed tidal. Are you after nas ripped file streaming hence the streamers you mention, or just a streaming service, or maybe also to have better dacs in streamers to route your CD player through and kill two birds. What is the rest of your system and can I please ask what do you want to achieve.

 

[Muddywaterstones]

That was a quick response Quest. I was about to head off to bed!

What am I looking for? It seems I've gotten lazy in the last few years and listen predominantly via bluetooth at the moment. I'm well aware of the short-comings but honestly the difference isn't huge. Most of my CD collection is in another country and inaccesible to me. I couldn't be bothered FedExing (other couriers are acceptable) it over here.

Mostly what I'm looking is to improve the quality of the stream. One of the things that the Mini-blink suffers from is random drop-outs. Some weeks there isn't a single one. Other nights you can't get through a song. It gets on my ..........nerves.

With Spotify Connect/Airplay I would be hoping the signal was of better quality, closing that gap to cd as much as possible and the drop-outs non-existant. I don't know if this is the case.

If the Yamaha WXC-50 worked out, I could imagine getting rid of the CD player altogether.

The rest of the system is a Heed Obelisk Mark 2 amp with Monitor Audio Bronze 6 speakers held together with various lengths of sheathed copper. Now, I know you're gonna come down hard on the speakers and say they are forward and rubbish but i honestly preferred them to some more expensive gear, which this week includes the new MA Silver 200 and before that the Kef R500. There is a Rotel amp and some B&W speakers lurking around the house too but not connected at the moment.

It has taken me a while to tame the speakers but the balance seems good at the moment and if anything the overall tone is warm. The secret is lots of wood in the room: twas a DIY project with tonnes of reclaimed wood from elsewhere in the house. The missus is not impressed by the aesthetics! It's not in the main living room though so it's here to stay!

 

[ellisdj]

I have tested mqa through a very premium ps audio setup and a very reasonable audioquest dragonfly red and headphones I think its very much worth it.
Try Michael Bubble to be loved album I found the difference massive on that album others less so but didnt test all of them

The issue is the library is not massive atm and the £20month premium for the tidal hifi quality service.

 

[Deleted member 160668]

I shall follow the thread with interest. I too do this and I stream extreme 320kbs Spotify premium to the hifi via my rBlink.

I can 2nd the near CD quality of the Arcam Bluetooth receivers - they really are good.

Fwiw, my rBlink never drops signal. Think has a better range and signal strength than the Miniblink.

 

[maroonbells]

Don't know if the CXN has the same DAC as my CXA amp but it isn't something I enjoyed when I used it before I got my Mojo, it gave me a headache to be honest.

 

[davedotco]

In general terms, if you are a Spotify user, I find the 'Connect' function to be superior in all respects, it can be wired so is more stable and I personally think it sounds better than anything Bluetooth or Airplay, though that might simply be that I am more 'comfortable' not using wireless.

Given that you have an integrated amp, pre-amp functions (like those on the Cambridge and Yamaha units) are not really required so you can look for a component streamer from any of the major manufacturers, there is usually something on offer somewhere.

There really is a lot of choice out there, so it really depends on your priorities, MQA is a sophisticated system but not much use if you use Spotify for most of your listening, worrying about Dac chips is probably pointless at this level, other factors are probably more important.

Right now there is a rather nice looking Pioneer unit under £200 at some outlets, that might be all you need, though it will not upgrade your CD player if that is important. The CD N301 adds a CD player but appears compromised as a streamer, not a route I would go down.

 

[chebby]

I have compared BT and AirPlay on two of my setups.

1. Quad Vena - with built-in BT - and Apple TV3/AEX (latest ‘square’version AEX) for AirPlay. (ATV3 or AEX connected to router with ethernet and to DAC with optical) plus Audio Note AX-Two ‘speakers.

2. Marantz M-CR611 (has both BT and Airplay built-in) plus JPW Sonatas. Again, Marantz connected to router with ethernet.

Spotify Premium, Apple Music, BBC iPlayer Radio, Radio Paradise and rips from my own CDs (320k AAC VBR and Apple Lossless) all sound better via AirPlay than via BT. It’s not dramatic and needs a little concentration and a few hours (days even) of each to really ‘get’ the difference. (Especially with the integrated BT on the Quad Vena which is excellent and narrows the gap significantly!)

Edit: I should have mentioned, no drop-outs with either system using BT or AirPlay although, obviously, BT is constrained in range and I only ever used it in the same room.

 

[jjbomber]

To be honest, Spotify via bluetooth is not at all bad. I've put on CDs with the same track simultaneously playing on Spotify: flicking back and forth between outputs in real time the difference was not huge. There was a difference but not night and day.

I feel dirty saying that on a hi-fi forum but so be it.

I think it was the Gadget Show last year that did blind testing between 320Kbps and Cds. Over half the audience preferred 320Kbps, so I guess there isn't much difference for most people. Never feel dirty for telling the truth!

 

[CnoEvil]

I think it was the Gadget Show last year that did blind testing between 320Kbps and Cds. Over half the audience preferred 320Kbps, so I guess there isn't much difference for most people. Never feel dirty for telling the truth!

"Truth" is in the ear of the Listener. *music2*

 

[grimharry]

The cdn301 isn’t bad as a streamer or CD player for its price it does have a warm sound and will do Spotify buit not tidal. There is an audio appraisal review that might be worth a read.

 

[Muddywaterstones]

I have tested mqa through a very premium ps audio setup and a very reasonable audioquest dragonfly red and headphones I think its very much worth it. Try Michael Bubble to be loved album I found the difference massive on that album others less so but didnt test all of them

The issue is the library is not massive atm and the £20month premium for the tidal hifi quality service.

I guess my thoughts on MQA were that it might take off and spread to other service providers. It would seem a shame to be without it, if it delivers all that it promises.

 

[Muddywaterstones]

Don't know if the CXN has the same DAC as my CXA amp but it isn't something I enjoyed when I used it before I got my Mojo, it gave me a headache to be honest.

Hearing the next model up, the 851N Azur, lead me down this path, assuming some type of common sonics.

 

[Muddywaterstones]

Cheers Chebby, that is the kind of information I was looking for.

 

[Muddywaterstones]

In general terms, if you are a Spotify user, I find the 'Connect' function to be superior in all respects, it can be wired so is more stable and I personally think it sounds better than anything Bluetooth or Airplay, though that might simply be that I am more 'comfortable' not using wireless.

Given that you have an integrated amp, pre-amp functions (like those on the Cambridge and Yamaha units) are not really required so you can look for a component streamer from any of the major manufacturers, there is usually something on offer somewhere.

There really is a lot of choice out there, so it really depends on your priorities, MQA is a sophisticated system but not much use if you use Spotify for most of your listening, worrying about Dac chips is probably pointless at this level, other factors are probably more important.

Right now there is a rather nice looking Pioneer unit under £200 at some outlets, that might be all you need, though it will not upgrade your CD player if that is important. The CD N301 adds a CD player but appears compromised as a streamer, not a route I would go down.

That's good to know in terms of Connect. I wasn't sure it would prove advantageous above regular BT.

Currently MQA is of little use to me but I was thinking aloud, wondering how the market might develop. It is more an added bonus than a crucial consideration.

The question on DAC chips was more to see if there was anything obvious to avoid. I presume each manufacturer has multiple levels of performance anyway, the basic level of each being roughly the same.

For no apparent reason I had overlooked the Pioneer you mention and gone up to their next level. Looking at the specs again it doesn't look half bad. Do you reckon there is better quality here as a streamer, as you are not paying for a pre-amp?

 

[Muddywaterstones]

To be honest, Spotify via bluetooth is not at all bad. I've put on CDs with the same track simultaneously playing on Spotify: flicking back and forth between outputs in real time the difference was not huge. There was a difference but not night and day.

I feel dirty saying that on a hi-fi forum but so be it.

I think it was the Gadget Show last year that did blind testing between 320Kbps and Cds. Over half the audience preferred 320Kbps, so I guess there isn't much difference for most people. Never feel dirty for telling the truth!

maybe I'm not so daft afterall!

 

[davedotco]

In general terms, if you are a Spotify user, I find the 'Connect' function to be superior in all respects, it can be wired so is more stable and I personally think it sounds better than anything Bluetooth or Airplay, though that might simply be that I am more 'comfortable' not using wireless.

Given that you have an integrated amp, pre-amp functions (like those on the Cambridge and Yamaha units) are not really required so you can look for a component streamer from any of the major manufacturers, there is usually something on offer somewhere.

There really is a lot of choice out there, so it really depends on your priorities, MQA is a sophisticated system but not much use if you use Spotify for most of your listening, worrying about Dac chips is probably pointless at this level, other factors are probably more important.

Right now there is a rather nice looking Pioneer unit under £200 at some outlets, that might be all you need, though it will not upgrade your CD player if that is important. The CD N301 adds a CD player but appears compromised as a streamer, not a route I would go down.

That's good to know in terms of Connect. I wasn't sure it would prove advantageous above regular BT.

Currently MQA is of little use to me but I was thinking aloud, wondering how the market might develop. It is more an added bonus than a crucial consideration.

The question on DAC chips was more to see if there was anything obvious to avoid. I presume each manufacturer has multiple levels of performance anyway, the basic level of each being roughly the same.

For no apparent reason I had overlooked the Pioneer you mention and gone up to their next level. Looking at the specs again it doesn't look half bad. Do you reckon there is better quality here as a streamer, as you are not paying for a pre-amp?

For some reason I prefer to keep my system as simple as possible, a WXC50 and a pair of actives is all I would need. However once you add extra requirements, such as upgrading your CD player, it gets more complex and more expensive.

The NP-01 is a source component so has no inputs, digital or analogue, most component streamers are the same. Unless you desperately want a screen, the WXC50 does most everything for a very modest cost, under £300, it can be used with the output fixed, has toslink and analog in and virtually everything else built in.

Of course you can pay a lot more for a streamer, be interesting to see how the sq improves, or not. As a Spotify user I would have to be convinced of a big advance in sq to want to pay much more.

BTW Spotify Connect facility pulls the music direct from the server and plays, no back and forth to your computer or hand held, they simply act as a remote control. In my setup, my streamer/preamp is tucked away with my router to which it is hard wired, all you can see are my speakers. Everything is controlled from my iPad though I often use Spotify on my Macbook which links to the 'Connect' enabled streamer, easier to set up and use than it is to explain.

 

[ellisdj]

I think if your thinking of a pure streaming future and you want the best quality of sound then buying a full MQA compatible Dac makes sense.

However if your thinking more along the lines of convienience using blutooth etc I really dont think it will matter.

 

[Muddywaterstones]

Been out listening to a few different products. The Yamaha, for its price, really ticks all the boxes. It also comes with a free 3 month subscription to Qobuz (offer based in France - don't know about other countries) which could be an interesting avenue to pursue I'm certainly not wedded to Spotify, except for their extensive catalogue.

One of the dealers pulled a funny face at the mention of the Yamaha. He wasn't sure it would offer any real improvement over the miniblink, recommending a Marantz NA 8005 as an altogether different beast, with better power supply, better circuitry etc. Different budget too!

In a different shop the dealer was quite complimentary about the Yamaha, though his eyes came over all misty when talking about the Cambridge 851N.

So it has left me thinking. On the one hand I'm tempted to snap up the Yamaha straight away and see what changes: on the other I might sit tight and see if anything interesting turns up in the sales or ex-dem.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I’ve heard people say with very premium mqa dacs and streamers that it is worth it. But you need the full unpacking dacs which are very expensive. But I wouldn’t be advising anyone to buy mqa in sub £20k systems as it’s really not worth it. You can equally get sources that are up there with these very premium sources that do sound as well as mqa, so it’s not necessarily the format for me. And in the budget market like the node 2 etc, it’s just not a consideration against having a decent streamer in the first place. I found no real difference in mqa off a node 2 versus cd quality tidal in my system. You will struggle to find big differences and it’s difficult enough to get cd quality streaming cheaply in the market atm, so that’s what I think consumers should concentrate on first. Mass market cd streaming and downloads isn’t really taking off as it could or should, let alone Mqa.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Been out listening to a few different products. The Yamaha, for its price, really ticks all the boxes. It also comes with a free 3 month subscription to Qobuz (offer based in France - don't know about other countries) which could be an interesting avenue to pursue I'm certainly not wedded to Spotify, except for their extensive catalogue.

One of the dealers pulled a funny face at the mention of the Yamaha. He wasn't sure it would offer any real improvement over the miniblink, recommending a Marantz NA 8005 as an altogether different beast, with better power supply, better circuitry etc. Different budget too!

In a different shop the dealer was quite complimentary about the Yamaha, though his eyes came over all misty when talking about the Cambridge 851N.

So it has left me thinking. On the one hand I'm tempted to snap up the Yamaha straight away and see what changes: on the other I might sit tight and see if anything interesting turns up in the sales or ex-dem.

I think any of those stated would more than do the job sound wise but you just need to concentrate on features and price. But the node2 is the best streaming bit of kit of those mentioned by you I think, for future proofing. In terms of getting a better dac if you do keep the CD player, and best value for money streamer. The ca you pay for the dedicated hi Fi box, but I don’t think it’s necessarily better than the node2

 

[insider9]

I’ve heard people say with very premium mqa dacs and streamers that it is worth it. But you need the full unpacking dacs which are very expensive. But I wouldn’t be advising anyone to buy mqa in sub £20k systems as it’s really not worth it. You can equally get sources that are up there with these very premium sources that do sound as well as mqa, so it’s not necessarily the format for me. And in the budget market like the node 2 etc, it’s just not a consideration against having a decent streamer in the first place. I found no real difference in mqa off a node 2 versus cd quality tidal in my system. You will struggle to find big differences and it’s difficult enough to get cd quality streaming cheaply in the market atm, so that’s what I think consumers should concentrate on first. Mass market cd streaming and downloads isn’t really taking off as it could or should, let alone Mqa. 

I'm not sure I agree. MQA can be beneficial and definitely heard on systems nowhere near £20k. I've only listened via non MQA dac with Tidal desktop app doing part encoding and difference is not difficult to spot. At least it wasn't for me. I'm surprised you couldn't hear a difference.

I wouldn't treat it as a must have due to limited availability of albums.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

What did you compare it on Insider ? We did a test of a node2 into my cyrus pre dac playing tidal masters mqa and tidal hi Fi, and it was the same. No discernible difference. I was umming and Aaring and it would have been bias to select one over the other. But the cyrus streamer playing tidal hi Fi cd streaming gave a fuller, bigger soundstage and was preferred in our bake-off of 4people. The node 2 used its analogue outs, so that may have accounted the difference in comparison to the cyrus because we were bypassing my cyrus dacs. But I’d expect the cyrus to beat the node2 as it’s double the price. In fact using the node 2 playing hi Fi into my pre dac and then doing the same with the cyrus streamer playing hi Fi, the cyrus was better.

we did the same test using a meridian explorer 2 dac using a laptop and out using analogue into my pre dac, and again no difference with mqa to tidal cd quality hi Fi service. There was a slight difference to a downloaded hi res 24/192 file from hd tracks to the same mqa file off tidal masters, with the mqa track slightly better in hfs but not hugely so. But then the meridian is a miniature headphone type dac I think, so I’d expect this in my system.

Atm I think the bluesound node2 is one of only a few mqa capable dedicated budget type hi Fi streamers (or the only one?) without the full unpacking dac of streamers like the ps audio ones which are a lot more expensive. Conceivably id hear a good difference on a ps audio device or one of the really expensive meridian streamers using mqa, but a lot of cash it wouldn’t be worth it in my system for the yield ie paring £5k streamers with value of speakers etc.

Maybe you’d hear it on really good headphone amps and headphones, but again for me this is the ‘splitting hairs source argument’ in a hi Fi system. It’s always better in a hi Fi just to buy the best for sound quality in the component make up of the device, and not get hooked up on files and mqa unless you are playing really bad mp3s etc.

 

[Muddywaterstones]

Been out listening to a few different products. The Yamaha, for its price, really ticks all the boxes. It also comes with a free 3 month subscription to Qobuz (offer based in France - don't know about other countries) which could be an interesting avenue to pursue I'm certainly not wedded to Spotify, except for their extensive catalogue.

One of the dealers pulled a funny face at the mention of the Yamaha. He wasn't sure it would offer any real improvement over the miniblink, recommending a Marantz NA 8005 as an altogether different beast, with better power supply, better circuitry etc. Different budget too!

In a different shop the dealer was quite complimentary about the Yamaha, though his eyes came over all misty when talking about the Cambridge 851N.

So it has left me thinking. On the one hand I'm tempted to snap up the Yamaha straight away and see what changes: on the other I might sit tight and see if anything interesting turns up in the sales or ex-dem.

I think any of those stated would more than do the job sound wise but you just need to concentrate on features and price. But the node2 is the best streaming bit of kit of those mentioned by you I think, for future proofing. In terms of getting a better dac if you do keep the CD player, and best value for money streamer. The ca you pay for the dedicated hi Fi box, but I don’t think it’s necessarily better than the node2

The CA is way outta my budget realistically but sometimes you have to think of what you really want with no compromises and then work back from there. I have heard it in action with the same speakers I own. I know it's a cliché but I heard stuff that I have never heard before while playing the CD in my house. Sure it was in a bigger room, at a volume I probably wouldn't reach at home but it was eye-opening. It probably does justify its price but I will probably never pay it.

Funnily, one of the dealers stocks the Node2 but never proposed it. I might have to go back and ask him why. My thinking on MQA, as i thought I'd already stated was that I could see someone like Spotify using it as a way to up their quality whilst saving bandwidth space. It may never happen. The technology might go all Betamax. It's not something I'm caught up on.

All things considered I think I'm coming down on the side of the Yamaha but am in no rush to purchase. Been checking out the 2nd hand market without any luck so far. Some good stuff but too far away to make it worth my while.