Pioneer's Kuro Plasmas enjoyed the best TV ever title for many years and now new influx of LED and advance circuitry LCDs have brought amazing level of details and black level, so can we now safely say the black levels on new LED tvs from the likes of Samsung C8000 and Sony HX series have dethroned the Kuro.
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CES Hands On - Samsung HW-Q990F review
Can King Kuro be dethroned Now?
- Thread starter Zubkabera
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For black performance, not until we've seen the new-season sets in action (alongside the Pioneer).
Of course, as already noted in reviews for the past year, other sets have already conquered the Kuro for detail resolution, and matched it for motion-handling.
Of course, as already noted in reviews for the past year, other sets have already conquered the Kuro for detail resolution, and matched it for motion-handling.
I don't normally disagree with a woman, because I normally lose badly so just admit defeat ,but....
I looked at Plasmas when choosing a new 55 inch TV and wasn't that impressed to be honest. I got a Samsung 55C8000 and am very happy with it. Lovely blacks and absolutely pin sharp, especially on live material and Blu Ray. Not sure if WHF tested the 55 inch version of this set but it was the best of the bunch on sale ( for its price range) when I was choosing. Not convinced by the 3D side of things, but that came with the set. I have an OPPO BDP 93 3D Blu Ray player on order to try Blu Ray 3D to see if it is better than SKY. That player has two HDMI outputs so I can send one direct to the TV for video/3D and the other to the Arcam for audio but this is all off topic sorry Clare.
I looked at Plasmas when choosing a new 55 inch TV and wasn't that impressed to be honest. I got a Samsung 55C8000 and am very happy with it. Lovely blacks and absolutely pin sharp, especially on live material and Blu Ray. Not sure if WHF tested the 55 inch version of this set but it was the best of the bunch on sale ( for its price range) when I was choosing. Not convinced by the 3D side of things, but that came with the set. I have an OPPO BDP 93 3D Blu Ray player on order to try Blu Ray 3D to see if it is better than SKY. That player has two HDMI outputs so I can send one direct to the TV for video/3D and the other to the Arcam for audio but this is all off topic sorry Clare.
Think a lot will depend on price as well. There have been a few threads on here asking about the price of modern hi-fi against the price of older components and the answers have ususlly been that you would have to spend a lot more than the original price of your kit to get the same performance today. it will be interesting to see if a modern tv that is better than the kuro is cheaper or more expensive. I have the PDP 428XD that i got about 4 years ago, think the retail price was about £2000.
barrywi:
I looked at Plasmas when choosing a new 55 inch TV and wasn't that impressed to be honest.
Ah, but you weren't looking at Kuros
Agreed, i've seen some LED-backlit LCDs with better blacks than some current plasmas. (Note caveat of 'some' in both cases)
I looked at Plasmas when choosing a new 55 inch TV and wasn't that impressed to be honest.
Ah, but you weren't looking at Kuros
Agreed, i've seen some LED-backlit LCDs with better blacks than some current plasmas. (Note caveat of 'some' in both cases)
So I assume you mean that Kuro's are no longer available but they were maybe better? In which case I had little choice , especially at the price I paid. I wouldn't have wanted to buy a second hand TV no matter how good it was when new. I knew I shouldn't have started this argument... I am bound to lose!
I rest my case your Honour.
I rest my case your Honour.
The_Lhc
Well-known member
barrywi:So I assume you mean that Kuro's are no longer available but they were maybe better?
No maybe about it, they still are better on many fronts (which is kind of the point of this thread really, so I don't know why I said that...).
No maybe about it, they still are better on many fronts (which is kind of the point of this thread really, so I don't know why I said that...).
The Kuros definately had excellent black levels, and there has been so much fuss about this black level that many people still thinks this was all these TVs did well. It wasn't! Kuros were excellent TVs in many ways, so just producing a TV with the same or better black level doesn't assure you have a superior TV.
It might be some of the recent top TVs have better detail resolution and motion handling (I personally disagree on this one, but it is a matter of taste, and I prefer the picture without any motion handling turned on), but I am still to see a LCD with the same level of shadow details as a well calibrated Kuro.
It might be some of the recent top TVs have better detail resolution and motion handling (I personally disagree on this one, but it is a matter of taste, and I prefer the picture without any motion handling turned on), but I am still to see a LCD with the same level of shadow details as a well calibrated Kuro.
Clare Newsome:
For black performance, not until we've seen the new-season sets in action (alongside the Pioneer).
Of course, as already noted in reviews for the past year, other sets have already conquered the Kuro for detail resolution, and matched it for motion-handling.
I recall you mentioning on another thread, Clare, that the review team no longer use the Kuro as their reference flatscreen. I might be wrong (and I can't track down the thread), but if the Kuro has been supplanted in your estimation, what was it replaced by? Or is this a closely guarded secret? Thanks for clarifying...
For black performance, not until we've seen the new-season sets in action (alongside the Pioneer).
Of course, as already noted in reviews for the past year, other sets have already conquered the Kuro for detail resolution, and matched it for motion-handling.
I recall you mentioning on another thread, Clare, that the review team no longer use the Kuro as their reference flatscreen. I might be wrong (and I can't track down the thread), but if the Kuro has been supplanted in your estimation, what was it replaced by? Or is this a closely guarded secret? Thanks for clarifying...
We now use a range of sets for different testing - class leaders in each size/feature class, with both plasma and LCD to call on.
So, that's currently sets from LG, Panasonic, Samsung and Sony as/when needed.
So, that's currently sets from LG, Panasonic, Samsung and Sony as/when needed.
Clare Newsome:
We now use a range of sets for different testing - class leaders in each size/feature class, with both plasma and LCD to call on.
So, that's currently sets from LG, Panasonic, Samsung and Sony as/when needed.
Nicely dodged!
(though I appreciate you will use different criteria to evaluate different aspects of performance).
We now use a range of sets for different testing - class leaders in each size/feature class, with both plasma and LCD to call on.
So, that's currently sets from LG, Panasonic, Samsung and Sony as/when needed.
Nicely dodged!
scene
Well-known member
I love my kuro, but let's face it, It was released getting on for 2.5 years ago. To still be talked of as "the one to beat" is a tribute to it's makers. And it isn't just the deepest blacks, it's the faithful colour reproduction, the motion handling, the Deep Colour, the upscaling, etc. The kuro, as a package was (and is
) hard to beat - something that I think is attested to by Clare's comment that a range of different TVs are used for comparisons now. Different TVs for different aspects, where the Kuro was one TV that could be compared to all.
And as I climb down from the pulpit, I think the Kuro will be beaten, and i think there's a good chance it could be this year....
And as I climb down from the pulpit, I think the Kuro will be beaten, and i think there's a good chance it could be this year....
strapped for cash:Clare Newsome:
We now use a range of sets for different testing - class leaders in each size/feature class, with both plasma and LCD to call on.
So, that's currently sets from LG, Panasonic, Samsung and Sony as/when needed.
Nicely dodged!
(though I appreciate you will use different criteria to evaluate different aspects of performance).
Not dodged at all - they're all current best-in-class, test-winning sets, which you can see from a quick glance at our Best Buys/Awards list. It's just too late to type out all those model numbers (which could be outdated next week/month if/when new 2011 sets arrive).
We now use a range of sets for different testing - class leaders in each size/feature class, with both plasma and LCD to call on.
So, that's currently sets from LG, Panasonic, Samsung and Sony as/when needed.
Nicely dodged!
Not dodged at all - they're all current best-in-class, test-winning sets, which you can see from a quick glance at our Best Buys/Awards list. It's just too late to type out all those model numbers (which could be outdated next week/month if/when new 2011 sets arrive).
Fair enough.
So we can surmise that all 2010 Best Buy/Award Winning televisions outperformed older models: i.e. there's no question that the 2010 award winners outperform their 2009 equivalents. It could have been an older model that was used as a reference set, hence my confusion...
So we can surmise that all 2010 Best Buy/Award Winning televisions outperformed older models: i.e. there's no question that the 2010 award winners outperform their 2009 equivalents. It could have been an older model that was used as a reference set, hence my confusion...
So by that rationale every new range of technology is better than its predecessor?
We only have to look at input lag problems with flatscreens compared with CRTs to challenge such a claim. LCD/LED and plasma still cannot match CRT televisions when it comes to motion. Indeed, some videophiles still argue HD simply enables flatscreens to match the standard-def picture quality of CRT sets.
We only have to look at input lag problems with flatscreens compared with CRTs to challenge such a claim. LCD/LED and plasma still cannot match CRT televisions when it comes to motion. Indeed, some videophiles still argue HD simply enables flatscreens to match the standard-def picture quality of CRT sets.
In my book KURO'S are stiil the most magnificent plasma's ever made and their picture quality is breath taking when set up properly. It's a legend.
DR KAY:In my book KURO'S are stiil the most magnificent plasma's ever made and their picture quality is breath taking when set up properly. It's a legend.
Unbiasedly Dittoed
Unbiasedly Dittoed
professorhat
Well-known member
strapped for cash:Indeed, some videophiles still argue HD simply enables flatscreens to match the standard-def picture quality of CRT sets.
I don't agree with that, but what's definitely missing from that statement is the different size of the TVs. Try and find a 50" CRT that matches a 50" Kuro for picture quality...
I don't agree with that, but what's definitely missing from that statement is the different size of the TVs. Try and find a 50" CRT that matches a 50" Kuro for picture quality...
Hail the Kuro....praise and hail the mighty Kuro .......mine will be with me for the next 8 years,and then their might be something better,but probably only just.
The_Lhc
Well-known member
professorhat:
strapped for cash:Indeed, some videophiles still argue HD simply enables flatscreens to match the standard-def picture quality of CRT sets.
I don't agree with that, but what's definitely missing from that statement is the different size of the TVs. Try and find a 50" CRT that matches a 50" Kuro for picture quality...
I agree with the point that flatscreens don't do SD pictures as well as a good CRT does but HD is an improvement over any CRT, imo.
strapped for cash:Indeed, some videophiles still argue HD simply enables flatscreens to match the standard-def picture quality of CRT sets.
I don't agree with that, but what's definitely missing from that statement is the different size of the TVs. Try and find a 50" CRT that matches a 50" Kuro for picture quality...
I agree with the point that flatscreens don't do SD pictures as well as a good CRT does but HD is an improvement over any CRT, imo.
well i learned one major lesson from last years models... i am going to demo the hell out of any new tv i buy again.... i have a few issues with my current set that i'll be easilly be able to spot with a new tv.. hopefully though i'll be able to see out the 5 year warranty on my VT20... but i doubt it
The 5090 has a measured black level of 0.0031 cd/m2 (and thats without any dodgy 'black processing' going on to BS the contrast ratio)
By contrast a Sony 40EX703 has a measurement of 0.04 cd/m2 still next to black
Even if new tvs get an absolute zero figure, who is going to tell between 0 and 0.0032??
I dont see the point of the post personally
By contrast a Sony 40EX703 has a measurement of 0.04 cd/m2 still next to black
Even if new tvs get an absolute zero figure, who is going to tell between 0 and 0.0032??
I dont see the point of the post personally
professorhat:
strapped for cash:Indeed, some videophiles still argue HD simply enables flatscreens to match the standard-def picture quality of CRT sets.
I don't agree with that, but what's definitely missing from that statement is the different size of the TVs. Try and find a 50" CRT that matches a 50" Kuro for picture quality...
I didn't say I agreed either, prof, but there are still discussions among videophiles to that effect. And I stand by my point about motion: you'd struggle to argue that LCD/LED/Plasma displays (however nominal a number their claimed input lag) handle motion more convincingly than CRTs (with zero input lag, or thereabouts).
My point was that we've made gains in some areas and losses in others; and the idea that technology always improves as it evolves is flawed. Yes, we can now have 50" displays, or larger, but certain areas of performance are compromised. Whether the gains outweigh the losses is a subjective question.
strapped for cash:Indeed, some videophiles still argue HD simply enables flatscreens to match the standard-def picture quality of CRT sets.
I don't agree with that, but what's definitely missing from that statement is the different size of the TVs. Try and find a 50" CRT that matches a 50" Kuro for picture quality...
I didn't say I agreed either, prof, but there are still discussions among videophiles to that effect. And I stand by my point about motion: you'd struggle to argue that LCD/LED/Plasma displays (however nominal a number their claimed input lag) handle motion more convincingly than CRTs (with zero input lag, or thereabouts).
My point was that we've made gains in some areas and losses in others; and the idea that technology always improves as it evolves is flawed. Yes, we can now have 50" displays, or larger, but certain areas of performance are compromised. Whether the gains outweigh the losses is a subjective question.
"I agree with the point that flatscreens don't do SD pictures as well as a
good CRT does but HD is an improvement over any CRT, imo."
In every area of performance, the_lhc?
good CRT does but HD is an improvement over any CRT, imo."
In every area of performance, the_lhc?
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