Can I really hear a difference between two cheap CD transports?

[Rups]

Hi,

Interested in views of more experienced hifi people...

Yesterday I listened to Cambridge CXC transport versus a Yamaha CD-N301, both played into the same amp from their coaxial digital OUT. I wanted to buy the cheap player with more features and did not expect to hear a difference. But thought I could. Is this REALLY possible? how?

(I should add that I am a new to the forum and indeed to forums! So please be kind if you have to slap me down for bad form or breaking protocol! I am in process of choosing a replacement system for my old super-budget separates bought 23 years ago in student days and am desperate for advice on a few topics...)

 

[davedotco]

And welcome.

This is, as you will see from other threads, a very contentious subject.

The long and the short of it is that when we do such a demonstration we are not simply making a decision on what we hear but a decision based on the input from all our senses.

Unfortunately we are very heavily influenced by what we see and what we know, all taking place at a deep subconcious level that we can not control. A hi-fi enthusiast knows that the more expensive, more 'purist' product should sound better so that is what is heard. No amount of concious thought can overcome this, it is simply the way humans 'work'.

Unfortunately this does not mean that there is no difference between the players, there might well be audible differences but until we test in such a way that removes all other sensory inputs we will not know for sure.

But then, for our own satisfaction and enjoyment, do we really need to know? Having listened to the two players and determined which one we prefer (whatever the reason), perhaps that is sufficiant, after all it is in this instance psycologically sound to buy the one you prefer, buying the cheaper model because it 'should' sound the same can lead to a bad case of buyers regret.

 

[Gazzip]

Hi,

Interested in views of more experienced hifi people...

Yesterday I listened to Cambridge CXC transport versus a Yamaha CD-N301, both played into the same amp from their coaxial digital OUT. I wanted to buy the cheap player with more features and did not expect to hear a difference. But thought I could. Is this REALLY possible? how?

(I should add that I am a new to the forum and indeed to forums! So please be kind if you have to slap me down for bad form or breaking protocol! I am in process of choosing a replacement system for my old super-budget separates bought 23 years ago in student days and am desperate for advice on a few topics...)

Quite possibly.

The CXC Transport mechanism and controller are proprietary whereas the Yam is an off the shelf multi-speed unit. In addition the internal layout/position of power supply etc. as well as other vibration control can make a difference to the SQ.

 

[Rups]

Thanks both. It's interesting to know that the CXC has proprietary innards, I would not have expected that at this price level.

I can see the wisdom of the "buyer's regret" conclusion! Problem is, although I'd take a preferred sound over the "nice to have" network features of the Yamaha, this decision is also bound up with the opportunities around other kit to make a system from two different retailers. More specifically, the amp I really want is only from a shop that'll do me the Yamaha but not the CXC. And I have another dilemma about speakers that spans the two suppliers as well!! Both retailers of course are offering worthwhile discounts for buying everything off them!

 

[Gazzip]

You may receive quite a number of replies from certain members telling you that everything sounds the same because it all measures the same. You need to take this advice with a large a pinch of salt. Many imparting such wisdom have at best a GCSE level of electronics understanding, but because they can seemingly talk-the-talk they can sometimes sound quite convincing. Doing a little research beyond their limited knowledge will generally expose those shortfalls so is always advisable.

 

[davedotco]

As I said in my first post, there are many reasons why we (as buyers) are more comfortable with one system over another and what you have just said goes to prove that.

Do not underestimate the satisfaction of buying the 'right' (for you) setup, you will relax and enjoy your music more without any nagging concerns that you may have compromised things in some way.

As a bit of a side swipe at Gazzip (no offense intended), I would suggest this is more important than any small differences in SQ from compedently designed transports.

 

[chebby]

Unless those JPWs of yours are totally sh#gged, be very careful replacing them. My JPW Sonatas would (did) need £750 to significantly better them. They cost me about £45 a few years ago (including two NOS tweeters) and were built around 25 years ago.

As for CD transports i'd probably just find a half-decent player from ebay and use it's optical or coax output. There are millions of them around for pocket money. Get one that looks nice and use it until it breaks then get another one.

 

[Rups]

On the other hand, if I listen to a favourite CD two ways:

1) ripped and airplayed from am Apple MacMini over AppleTV+Arcam r Link

2) played directly on an Apple external DVD writer (!!!) airplayed via the same route

It sounds identical which kind of sends me back down the "digital is digital and it ain't any different until it hits a DAC route" and I must have imagined things in that transport comparison in the shop. Arguably it could be because of a common limiting factor (Powerline LAN? ) but it sounds surprisingly good either way. But I'm sure someone would say that a user of an early 90s Technics CD player isn't qualified to make that judgement...

 

[Rups]

On the other hand, if I listen to a favourite CD two ways:

1) ripped and airplayed from am Apple MacMini over AppleTV+Arcam r Link

2) played directly on an Apple external DVD writer (!!!) airplayed via the same route

It sounds identical which kind of sends me back down the "digital is digital and it ain't any different until it hits a DAC route" and I must have imagined things in that transport comparison in the shop. Arguably it could be because of a common limiting factor - Powerline LAN? - but it sounds surprisingly good either way. But I'm sure someone would say that a user of an early 90s Technics CD player isn't qualified to make that judgement...

 

[Gazzip]

As I said in my first post, there are many reasons why we (as buyers) are more comfortable with one system over another and what you have just said goes to prove that.

Do not underestimate the satisfaction of buying the 'right' (for you) setup, you will relax and enjoy your music more without any nagging concerns that you may have compromised things in some way.

As a bit of a side swipe at Gazzip (no offense intended), I would suggest this is more important than any small differences in SQ from compedently designed transports.

No offence taken DDC. I completely agree with you that the whole package is much more important. Just trying to provide one of those many perspectives in response to the OP'S question...

 

[Blacksabbath25]

you should just buy what you like and what sounds good to you what ever the price is its your choice

 

[matt49]

As for the question of whether there are audible differences between devices of this kind, people have a lot (of emotional capital) invested in the question, so the arguments tend to generate more heat than light. Plenty of evidence of this elsewhere on the site ...

I tend to agree with Gazzip, in particular in respect of power supplies: PSUs can make a real difference to performance, especially in budget kit. Though whether this is going to be audible in normal listening ...

To me the Yamaha just looks like a better package, with its streaming capability and Spotify on board. If it were my decision, it'd be a question of how important these functions are likely to be.

 

[chebby]

On the other hand, if I listen to a favourite CD two ways:

1) ripped and airplayed from am Apple MacMini over AppleTV+Arcam r Link

2) played directly on an Apple external DVD writer (!!!) airplayed via the same route

It sounds identical which kind of sends me back down the "digital is digital and it ain't any different until it hits a DAC route" and I must have imagined things in that transport comparison in the shop. Arguably it could be because of a common limiting factor - Powerline LAN? - but it sounds surprisingly good either way. But I'm sure someone would say that a user of an early 90s Technics CD player isn't qualified to make that judgement...

It's what I do too. CDs ripped to iTunes on my Mac Mini (ALAC and 320K AAC VBR) and synced to my iOS devices for playing via AirPlay. I use the latest AirPort Express (ethernet connected to our AirPort Extreme and optically connected to my Quad Vena).

I don't have a CD player to compare but the last standalone one I owned (a Naim CD5i until 5 years ago) was nothing special.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Don't second guess yourself is what I'd advise.

If one sounds better than the other, it sounds better than the other so buy with confidence.

The how is irrelevant - all you need to decide is do you want the best sound or the features.

Your call.

 

[steve_1979]

CD players don't hold their value well so there are plenty of high end CD players that were originally very expensive but can now be picked up for very little money.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

CD players don't hold their value well so there are plenty of high end CD players that were originally very expensive but can now be picked up for very little money.

You been reading me secretly haven't you?

 

[steve_1979]

CD players don't hold their value well so there are plenty of high end CD players that were originally very expensive but can now be picked up for very little money.

You been reading me secretly haven't you?

I'm just looking at it from a financial point of view. Why buy something for £300 that will be virtually worthless in 2 years time? For the same money you can buy something for £300 that originally cost well over £1000 and in the future if he ever decides to sell it he will probably get the £300 back that he originally paid without losing any money in the process. That seems like a much more sensible option to me.

I would give the same advice to anyone wanting to buy man AV receiver as they don't hold their value either.

 

[Rups]

Yes, that's an interesting suggestion... I have considered that. I looked at possibility of Audiolab 8200cd second hand. I was actually surprised how well they seem to keep their value, based on asking prices! Mainly though I'm wary of reliability. My current player (such as it is!) was light weight but robust and has lasted 23 years and still going without repair...only suffering some physical damage from children now old enough to be trusted to give a new one more respect. What I see looking online is a million CD players sold for parts or having had replacement transports and lasers. I see a lot of chat online about audiophile CD players having 'issues' over time. Mind you, the transport drawers on all the new players I look at seem very flimsy compared to my old faithful! So perhaps I'm just behind the times...

Perhaps I'll take another look on eBay...

 

[Vladimir]

In recording studios it happens a million times the engineer adjust an EQ knob, say treble, and hears he got it just right, but only to learn after hours of work the treble EQ function was defaulted (turned off). This is called expectation bias and to avoid it manufacturers put bright LEDs indicating if the EQ is on or off.

Maybe there is a difference between the CD transports you compared, maybe there isn't. There shouldn't be one unless the units are malfunctional or poorly designed. Unless you do a controlled test where you take away all your expectation biases, you can't know if what you heard was true or not. And no, "I wasn't expecting to hear a difference but I did, so I don't need to do controlled tests" is not a valid argument. You had an expectation, you were listening for differences like the studio engineer was turning the treble knob. You can't say you weren't listening for differences when you compared Cambridge CXC transport versus a Yamaha CD-N301.

 

[SemiChronic]

Hi, new here, read some great topics and opinions. Keep them coming!

I noticed a marked difference in SQ between a Teac CD-P650 and CA651A. I dont claim to know what witchcraft is going on in either of these units, they both sound good to me and one noticably more than the other.

 

[Gazzip]

Maybe there is a difference between the CD transports you compared, maybe there isn't. There shouldn't be one unless the units are malfunctional or poorly designed.

Read another way...

Maybe there is a difference between the CD transports you compared, maybe there isn't. There shouldn't be one unless the manufacturers designed the units to sound different from one another, perhaps to appeal to a wider market with a spectrum of sonic taste.

 

[Vladimir]

CD players don't hold their value well so there are plenty of high end CD players that were originally very expensive but can now be picked up for very little money.

You been reading me secretly haven't you?

I have!

Have I told you about my Mcintosh MCD7007 CDP that had the same 'sophisticated innards' as the much much cheaper Philips CD650, which I also owned?

 

[keeper of the quays]

Unless those JPWs of yours are totally sh#gged, be very careful replacing them. My JPW Sonatas would (did) need £750 to significantly better them. They cost me about £45 a few years ago (including two NOS tweeters) and were built around 25 years ago.

As for CD transports i'd probably just find a half-decent player from ebay and use it's optical or coax output. There are millions of them around for pocket money. Get one that looks nice and use it until it breaks then get another one.

Go to ebay, get a old cd player with a swing arm mechanism..pref mission 7000..or equivilant philips player..cost bout £50? Use a decent co ax cable (this is important, look at what hifi reviews to choose) job done!

 

[Al ears]

Hi,

Interested in views of more experienced hifi people...

Yesterday I listened to Cambridge CXC transport versus a Yamaha CD-N301, both played into the same amp from their coaxial digital OUT. I wanted to buy the cheap player with more features and did not expect to hear a difference. But thought I could. Is this REALLY possible? how?

(I should add that I am a new to the forum and indeed to forums! So please be kind if you have to slap me down for bad form or breaking protocol! I am in process of choosing a replacement system for my old super-budget separates bought 23 years ago in student days and am desperate for advice on a few topics...)

I'm interested in which amp you used to listen to the CXC with.

 

[Vladimir]

Maybe there is a difference between the CD transports you compared, maybe there isn't. There shouldn't be one unless the units are malfunctional or poorly designed.

Read another way...

Maybe there is a difference between the CD transports you compared, maybe there isn't. There shouldn't be one unless the manufacturers designed the units to sound different from one another, perhaps to appeal to a wider market with a spectrum of sonic taste.

By industry standards it is poor design, but if someone likes it he should buy it, as long as he realizes it's a frequency response flavor or just a louder output, not extra resolution, extra details etc.

Can you point out a CDP that doesn't have a flat FR -/+0.5dB and the standard 2Vrms unbalanced output? Those would be the candidates for real audible differences.