Cables (get on my nerve!)

Thaiman

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I know I was as quilty as a certian members here that will debate about cables regardless whether it's an off topics or not. but could a few in here that enjoying the "could go on forever cable war" choose the threads to have argument in??? There are people out there that really need some advice on other topics and end up with cable war on his/her threads, Cmon mates....you know as well as I do - you will never ever agree on this matter!
 

Anton90125

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[quote user="Thaiman"]
There are people out there that really need some advice on other topics and end up with cable war on his/her threads[/quote]

I only get involved when someone states their opinion (cables not having an effect) as a scientific fact. I strongly believe that people should try out cable for themselves.

1. To prove that they can /cannot hear a difference

2. If they can hear a difference, to get the differences which suites/compliments the characteristics of their hifi (not all differences are good)
 

Gwyndy

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[quote user="Thaiman"]I know I was as quilty as a certian members here that will debate about cables regardless whether it's an off topics or not. but could a few in here that enjoying the "could go on forever cable war" choose the threads to have argument in???

There are people out there that really need some advice on other topics and end up with cable war on his/her threads, Cmon mates....you know as well as I do - you will never ever agree on this matter!
[/quote]

I couldn't agree with you more Thaiman, maybe what Hi-fi could start a specific "cables are they worth it section" and then everyone who wants to could argue about it there, I am concerned that several of the innocent victims of these cable wars post a couple of queries in the forums and then are never heard from again, we are supposed to be helping each other here not scaring people away.
 

Anton90125

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The Thread "what should I do" by cannon_dt asked specifically "Another thing I need to point out is that my current set up is done without any sort of investment in cables or interconnects (I am using probably the lowest grade cables and I have not done biwiring)".

Several people offer various bits of advise then some one comes along saying cable is

"It's a mugs' game. The differences are unmeasurable, nobody can really hear a difference and those believers of the cable gods that have been tested have so far failed dismally".

This is stated as a fact (not an opinion) .

Am I wrong in answering this? cannon_dt is asking for advise on cables and being told its a mugs game does not help.

If he (cannon_dt) did some testing of cables and came to the conclusion that he could hear no difference despite the advise he got on this forum then fine- he would have come to the decision which was right for him. If however he decided not try out different cables on the basis of being told there is no difference and later finds he can hear a difference then, how has this forum helped him?

In the thread "Interconnect Upgrade", tosh is specifically asking for advice on interconnect cables. Again certain individuals stated there were no difference in cables. As an opinion that's fine but no this is stated as a matter of fact. Further to this people (who hear differences) are ridiculed and in some cases insulted. Under such an environment, how can we be helpful to tosh without being in conflict with some of the claims made by the anticable lobby?

Any cable discussion nearly always results in the same (mostly one sided ) abuse from the same people. One poster was even banned.
If there was a live and let live attitude (That is you have your opinion and I will have mine and agree to disagree) then there would be no problem but as it stands my ( and others ) patience is wearing thin.

I am sorry if you find this bickering irritating but the alternative is appeasement and a one sided bit of advice ( and the lack of discovery as to whether cables are really relevant or not for the person seeking advise )
 

Gwyndy

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Apologies if my post inadvertently made it sound as if I blamed yourself or anyone else for this situation. I am, as probably are many other people here, a member of more than one Hi-Fi related forum, on all the forums of which I am a member there appears to be an element who seem to believe that the only way to discuss anything regarding cables is by arguing that "Cables are a 'non starter' a make believe marketing vehicle".

I have nothing against anyone having an opinion, in fact as we live in a democracy we should ensure that we express one. My concern is that certain people are not able or willing to accept that anyone else is entitled to an opinion and particularly that any difference of opinion may be correct.

In my view as attempts to remove those with this arrogant attitude have failed, it may be safer to create a section of the site where these discussions may be held without compromising the enjoyment of newcomers to the site.

As someone who purchased a second-hand Linn system connected with Richer Sounds interconnects and Speaker cable (it sounded lovely). Which I replaced with my own Merlin cables when I got home, and double blind tested on my wife and best friend, I have my own view regarding the differences cabling and mains conditioners make, I'm just sick of arguing about it.

My apologies to all
 

Thaiman

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Anton my friend....I did say that I am as quilty as many here so I am not having a pop at anyone but it seem like "cables war could get out of hand"

I am just another member like you and oldphart but I have been post in many forums....let say long enough to tell you that one will not convince the other to believe what they can or can't hear!

I believe in Placebo effect but doesn't mean I can't hear the different in cables (apart from power chords). May I tell you a story.....Tesco did a research a while back by wrapping the same type of chocolate bar in two different wrappers, one got "finest" written on and the other one has "value" written on it and yes, you guess it nearly everyone think "finest" taste better!
 
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Anonymous

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I used to be forever trying to treak my hifi with different cables and spikes leads etc untill it became like an obbession and i'd spend more time tweaking that i did just sitting back and enjoying the music. I think alot of it is in the mind you buy a more expensive lead so assume it must sound better, but is it?, now with wife and mortgage i have neither the time nor money to experiment with leads etc so just sit down and listern to what i've got, and i find it more enjoyable now, - well thats my pennys worth
 

Anton90125

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[quote user="Thaiman"]
I believe in Placebo effect but doesn't mean I can't hear the different in cables (apart from power chords). May I tell you a story.....Tesco did a research a while back by wrapping the same type of chocolate bar in two different wrappers, one got "finest" written on and the other one has "value" written on it and yes, you guess it nearly everyone think "finest" taste better![/quote]

I have no doubt that the placebo effect is real, I know of someone who got drunk on pure orange juice because he thought it had alcohol in it.

The problem is (at least in a personal context) I believe that there is limit to the extent that the placebo effect works. I have heard black and white differences that are simply to large to be imagined ( and you don't need golden ears to hear them).

I have no problem with people saying that in their opinion there is no difference in cables or that in their opinion that what we hear is due to the placebo effect. This is because its their opinion.

I take offence when it is stated as fact when there is no concrete proof of any of it.

Hifi by its nature is subjective and always will be. If we ignore the placebo effect then we have the problem that we all hear slightly differently. The process of hearing is not completely understood. How much of the brain processing of sound relies on the ears and how much on the vibrations exciting other parts? How does the brain actually create a stereo image from phase variance?

If people kept statements to the level of opinions there would be no cable (or any kind) of war.

Thaiman, on another post you stated that the difference between low/medium end equipment and high end equipment was black and white. What if someone said that was also a placebo effect despite what you heard? What if any blind test you carried out were completely ignored out of hand?

[quote user="Thaiman"]
I am just another member like you and oldphart but I have been post in many forums....let say long enough to tell you that one will not convince the other to believe what they can or can't hear![/quote]

I am not trying to convince others of my opinion. But I resent it (and will take a stand) when someone tries to forcefully impose his opinion (as its not scientific fact) on me. At the end of the day I truly believe its up to the individual to decide whether he can hear a difference - not be told he can't so don't bother.
 
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Anonymous

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[quote user="mercurymagic"]
I used to be forever trying to treak my hifi with different cables and spikes leads etc untill it became like an obbession and i'd spend more time tweaking that i did just sitting back and enjoying the music. I think alot of it is in the mind you buy a more expensive lead so assume it must sound better, but is it?, now with wife and mortgage i have neither the time nor money to experiment with leads etc so just sit down and listern to what i've got, and i find it more enjoyable now, - well thats my pennys worth
[/quote]

Exactly. If a novice asks for advice do you tell him to try painting the edges of his CDs green with expensive special paint? Then neither should you advise spending stupid amounts of money on 2 short lengths of screened wire.
 
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Anonymous

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Part of the problem is there are people on saying its all a rip off and it seems patently obvious that they have done next to no demoing. They have just decided that its the case. i also dont go along with the comments about placebo effects.Perhaps if you are easily influenced you could get stung with a hi fi placebo ,but not if you have even half a clue about hi fi and what you are listening to. Ok, some cables sound v similar but some do not. I have heard the differences, some so dramatic that i bet even my gran could tell the difference.Anyone that says its imagined really is rather foolish. I currently have x tube 400 speaker cable.I have also heard the 300 and the 350.It is an absolute doddle to hear the differences when they are demo'd against each other.In fact i am going to change the run of cable to my tweeters to 350 as it is less sibilant and smoother sounding than 400 which is better with mon audio speakers.Quite noticeably so.As for hearing through the ear and through other areas, nearly all your hearing is through the ear and only a small part through the bones. It is still all interpreted by the brain in exactly the same way, vibration of the hairs in the inner ear.I dont see how that could possibly be connected to placebo effect as placebo effect is psychological and not physiological.Tthen of course we have the great conspiracy theory.Would someone tell me why , say, chord co make a range of cables? if they all sounded the same why bother? Its a lot of hassle and effort to make several products when one will do. As for mains cables and mains conditioners. RFi exists doesnt it? Thats proven and we know what it can do to sound.If a product removes it then surely it will make a difference? Only the most dogmatic,ill informed and illogical person would suggest otherwise. Anyone heard an isotek minisub in action? It will take your breath away, thats how much of a difference it makes even on budget kit.If you genuinely cant hear it you should just give up.
 

Anton90125

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[quote user="Keith McAlpine"]Then neither should you advise spending stupid amounts of money on 2 short lengths of screened wire.[/quote]

If thats your OPINION than yes that might be an appropriate response providing you qualify as your opinion.

As my opinion is different I would advise him differently in much the same way as I would advise anyone to open a glass door before trying to walk through it -and also qualify it as my opinion.

[quote user="mercurymagic"]I think alot of it is in the mind you buy a more expensive lead so assume it must sound better, but is it?[/quote]

As an opinion it's perfectly valid. Expensive leads may not necessarily sound better/worse or the same just because of the cost. Your ears and common sense are a better guide then cost - IMO.
 

Anton90125

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[quote user="Fraziel"]As for hearing through the ear and through other areas, nearly all your hearing is through the ear and only a small part through the bones.[/quote]

I not sure that's completely true. Go and see Motorhead and see where you feel it.Any mass (part of the body) can be effected by resonance. The brain may be taking signals from all over the body and processing them to produce what we percieve as hearing. But I think you have missed the point. What I am saying is simply if we don't understand fully the processes involved with hearing/listening then how can we say that we have/know all the measurements necessary to say that cables should sound the same? This would explain why some cable measure the same RCL but sound different. The physics is not wrong but incomplete. IMO

[quote user="Fraziel"]I dont see how that could possibly be connected to placebo effect as placebo effect is psychological and not physiological[/quote]

I never said that our lack of understanding of the process of hearing is related to the placebo effect. The placebo is a real effect but does not explain the massive differences experienced with similar cables. again IMO
 
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Anonymous

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The process of hearing is fully understood. Sight isn't though. Anyway,sorry to be a geek about this but anything you hear is all heard in the same way.Stimulation of the hairs in the cochlea of the inner ear.People who have severe hearing loss often have better hearing through the bones than through the ear but for most people hearing through the bones is only a v small part of how you actually hear.yes, I have been at concerts where the bass is so heavy that i feel it in my chest. I am feeling that though, not hearing it.Well, i also hear it, but not through my bones vibrating in my chest. At least i hope not! I take your point about your placebo comment though.
 

Anton90125

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Point taken. I am however convinced that cables that have nearly identical RCL characteristics as measured can and often do sound different. I also believe that there should be a logical reason for this that is not placebo related. Thus the commonly measured parameters often used to describe cables are not enough to truly characterize it. Maybe then these other variables exist in the wire itself and not in the Human body?
 
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Anonymous

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[quote user="Anton90125"]I am however convinced that cables that have nearly identical RCL characteristics as measured can and often do sound different.[/quote]

What cables have you auditioned and measured?
 

Anton90125

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[quote user="Keith McAlpine"][quote user="Anton90125"]I am however convinced that cables that have nearly identical RCL characteristics as measured can and often do sound different.[/quote]

What cables have you auditioned and measured?[/quote]

The same cables you say should sound the same. Sorry I was being flippant.

I have auditioned a fair number over the years but I haven't measured them but I am making an assumption that since you said that they should sound the same, that they should measure the same (or V Similar). Is this wrong?

Since you have asked me the question I must reconsider my assertion that they have nearly identical RCL characteristics. Maybe they don't which would then answer why they sound different.

I must then ask why should you say that they sound same?
 

laserman16

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Well Thaiman, I bet you regret starting this post up,it appears to have had the opposite effect to your original good idea. All the arguements seem to have shifted to this post.
 

Anton90125

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[quote user="laserman16"]Well Thaiman, I bet you regret starting this post up,it appears to have had the opposite effect to your original good idea. All the arguements seem to have shifted to this post.[/quote]

That Thaiman is a cleaver man! As you said " shifted to this post " thus clearing other posts!
 

laserman16

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[quote user="Anton90125"][quote user="laserman16"]Well Thaiman, I bet you regret starting this post up,it appears to have had the opposite effect to your original good idea. All the arguements seem to have shifted to this post.[/quote]

That Thaiman is a cleaver man! As you said " shifted to this post " thus clearing other posts!
[/quote]
Yeah but not the effect he wanted.
 
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Anonymous

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Just replaced my TV-to-Amp out of box RCA cable with a Chord Crimson. What a difference. It has a far greater range, especially in the bass. In general, it sounds less thin and has a wider, more articulate sound stage.

It's not hard to improve upon an out of box cable though. I guess the real test will be when I compare it to my Chord Cobra 2, as used between CDP-Amp :)
 
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Anonymous

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I was reading a Naim publication and it gives various Hi Fi tips one of them being " remove and re-insert leads half a dozen times every few months as the contacts can oxidise and become less effective "

Now it occurs to me that someone trying a new cable will be achieving much the same effect as cleaning the terminals and instantly hearing an improved difference and thinking ah ha the new cable is much better than the old one.

Just a thought.
 
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Anonymous

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[quote user="Anton90125"][quote user="Keith McAlpine"][quote user="Anton90125"]I am however convinced that cables that have nearly identical RCL characteristics as measured can and often do sound different.[/quote]

What cables have you auditioned and measured?[/quote]

The same cables you say should sound the same. Sorry I was being flippant.

I have auditioned a fair number over the years but I haven't measured them
[/quote]

f you haven't actually measured any how can you possibly be of the opinion that cables with "identical RCL characteristics" sound different?
 
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Anonymous

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[quote user="bluetorric"]
I was reading a Naim publication and it gives various Hi Fi tips one of them being " remove and re-insert leads half a dozen times every few months as the contacts can oxidise and become less effective "

Now it occurs to me that someone trying a new cable will be achieving much the same effect as cleaning the terminals and instantly hearing an improved difference and thinking ah ha the new cable is much better than the old one.

Just a thought.

[/quote]

One of many factors that add up to a difference...
 
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Anonymous

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[quote user="Anton90125"]
Point taken. I am however convinced that cables that have nearly identical RCL characteristics as measured can and often do sound different. I also believe that there should be a logical reason for this that is not placebo related. Thus the commonly measured parameters often used to describe cables are not enough to truly characterize it. Maybe then these other variables exist in the wire itself and not in the Human body?
[/quote]

I could not agree more.
 
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Anonymous

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Whilst were on cables can anyone help with this http://whathifi.com/forums/t/5420.aspx your help would be much appreciated thanks
 

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