Cable Con?

[rgill90]

Hi All

So its snowing I'm indoors and i've not much to think about. I've been to a few amazing concerts recently and looked at all the rigging. All the metres and metres of Speaker Cables I saw at the venue I presumed must have cost an absolute bomb. I came home and googled concert equipment and found all cables seemingly very very cheap. Turns out speaker cables and microphone cables for concert equipment are really quite cheap. So another thought came to me - if the domestic hi fi market are being convinced to budget 10% for cables (thats about £250 in my case) why doesn;t this rule apply to the proffessional market as well?

So I did a bit more googling - this time for some recording studio equipment with the preconception that if the domestic market are spending 10% on cables to play back their music, surely the proffessional market are using this sort of budget (or more) to RECORD the music? Turns out not so - you can buy 250 foot of professional microphone cable for about £100! 4 metres of interconnect cables from a professional store don;t go above about £20. The list is endless. I just don;t get it. The home consumer seems to be being sold extremly expensive over priced cables when compared to the professional market.

I happen to know for example, PMC wholeheartedly recommend Van Damme speaker cables - especially when they setup for recording studios. They weigh in at around £3 per metre!! How can van damme (In their own words) "Suppliers to the audio, video and broadcast industrial markets" charge this sort of money when compared to other manufacturers prices go absoltuely through the roof for the domestic market?

You may have noticed I do write this with some sceptisicm about very expensive cables / interconnects! So - am i right about this? Have i just not looked hard enough about what the trade / industry spend on their cables? Am I drawing correct comparisons? Or am I simply just talking an absolute load of misinformed pish?

hehe - maybe i can start a debate?!

Thanks for reading my ramblings / rants / comments!

 

[Simon Lucas]

rgill90:hehe - maybe i can start a debate?!

'Debate' is one word for it.

 

[hammill]

1. Do cables make a differance? Probably, although mains cables and HDMI cables are a moot point.

2. Are HiFi cables overpriced? Certainly - Andrew has mentioned before that cables have the highest mark up in the hifi world. What Hifi can give away an expensive cable with the magazine subscription that cost less than the RRP of the cable - that suggests strongly that the prouction costs are a fraction of the RRP. The Currys of this world have seized on cables as a way to make extra profit in the same way as they do with extended warranties. When people on this forum spend as much on cables for a 370 BDP as they do on the player, you know something is wrong.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

rgill90:
Hi All

So its snowing I'm indoors and i've not much to think about. I've been to a few amazing concerts recently and looked at all the rigging. All the metres and metres of Speaker Cables I saw at the venue I presumed must have cost an absolute bomb. I came home and googled concert equipment and found all cables seemingly very very cheap. Turns out speaker cables and microphone cables for concert equipment are really quite cheap. So another thought came to me - if the domestic hi fi market are being convinced to budget 10% for cables (thats about £250 in my case) why doesn;t this rule apply to the proffessional market as well?

So I did a bit more googling - this time for some recording studio equipment with the preconception that if the domestic market are spending 10% on cables to play back their music, surely the proffessional market are using this sort of budget (or more) to RECORD the music? Turns out not so - you can buy 250 foot of professional microphone cable for about £100! 4 metres of interconnect cables from a professional store don;t go above about £20. The list is endless. I just don;t get it. The home consumer seems to be being sold extremly expensive over priced cables when compared to the professional market.

I happen to know for example, PMC wholeheartedly recommend Van Damme speaker cables - especially when they setup for recording studios. They weigh in at around £3 per metre!! How can van damme (In their own words) "Suppliers to the audio, video and broadcast industrial markets" charge this sort of money when compared to other manufacturers prices go absoltuely through the roof for the domestic market?

You may have noticed I do write this with some sceptisicm about very expensive cables / interconnects! So - am i right about this? Have i just not looked hard enough about what the trade / industry spend on their cables? Am I drawing correct comparisons? Or am I simply just talking an absolute load of misinformed pish?

hehe - maybe i can start a debate?!

Thanks for reading my ramblings / rants / comments!

I think you're getting mixed up with concert equipment and HiFi equipment.

 

[visionary]

hammill:When people on this forum spend as much on cables for a 370 BDP as they do on the player, you know something is wrong.

That is probably one of the most sensible comments I have seen on the forum about this topic

To answer the OP, there seem to be quite a few followers of Van Damme on the forum. As you say, they're relatively inexpensive so why not give them a try as I'm about to?

 

[rgill90]

Gerrardasnails:rgill90:

Hi All

So its snowing I'm indoors and i've not much to think about. I've been to a few amazing concerts recently and looked at all the rigging. All the metres and metres of Speaker Cables I saw at the venue I presumed must have cost an absolute bomb. I came home and googled concert equipment and found all cables seemingly very very cheap. Turns out speaker cables and microphone cables for concert equipment are really quite cheap. So another thought came to me - if the domestic hi fi market are being convinced to budget 10% for cables (thats about £250 in my case) why doesn;t this rule apply to the proffessional market as well?

So I did a bit more googling - this time for some recording studio equipment with the preconception that if the domestic market are spending 10% on cables to play back their music, surely the proffessional market are using this sort of budget (or more) to RECORD the music? Turns out not so - you can buy 250 foot of professional microphone cable for about £100! 4 metres of interconnect cables from a professional store don;t go above about £20. The list is endless. I just don;t get it. The home consumer seems to be being sold extremly expensive over priced cables when compared to the professional market.

I happen to know for example, PMC wholeheartedly recommend Van Damme speaker cables - especially when they setup for recording studios. They weigh in at around £3 per metre!! How can van damme (In their own words) "Suppliers to the audio, video and broadcast industrial markets" charge this sort of money when compared to other manufacturers prices go absoltuely through the roof for the domestic market?

You may have noticed I do write this with some sceptisicm about very expensive cables / interconnects! So - am i right about this? Have i just not looked hard enough about what the trade / industry spend on their cables? Am I drawing correct comparisons? Or am I simply just talking an absolute load of misinformed pish?

hehe - maybe i can start a debate?!

Thanks for reading my ramblings / rants / comments!

I think you're getting mixed up with concert equipment and HiFi equipment.

I thought I was as well - but thats why I searched for Recording Studio equipment on the assumption that the principles of playing back music was the same as recording the actual music.

 

[CustomCable]

rgill90:I happen to know for example, PMC wholeheartedly recommend Van Damme speaker cables - especially when they setup for recording studios. They weigh in at around £3 per metre!! How can van damme (In their own words) "Suppliers to the audio, video and broadcast industrial markets" charge this sort of money when compared to other manufacturers prices go absoltuely through the roof for the domestic market?

PMC are used very heavily in the Music Industry and the speaker cables used in the music industry are the cheapest, good quality cable they can get as they need to purchase SO much of it. I cannot imagine the recording studios procurement obtaining 100 metre drums of PSS. The Van Damme is exceptionally good cable and instead of being made of recycled copper with many impurities such as many of the other cheap copper cables the Van Damme is a high grade OFC. I have heard PMC loudspeakers sound better on other speaker cable, however PMC speakers are balanced using Van Damme.

 

[scene]

hammill:
1. Do cables make a differance? Probably, although mains cables and HDMI cables are a moot point.

2. Are HiFi cables overpriced? Certainly - Andrew has mentioned before that cables have the highest mark up in the hifi world. What Hifi can give away an expensive cable with the magazine subscription that cost less than the RRP of the cable - that suggests strongly that the prouction costs are a fraction of the RRP. The Currys of this world have seized on cables as a way to make extra profit in the same way as they do with extended warranties. When people on this forum spend as much on cables for a 370 BDP as they do on the player, you know something is wrong.

+1 on both of those comments.

My only point to add is that some analogue cables do cost more to make than others - OFC copper has a certain cost and coating it in Oxygen-free Silver reliably, and then twisting the cables and covering them incurs certain manufacturing costs. Some of the extra cost can be explained by QC during production - a more expensive cable (hopefully) should have better QC and will be more reliable and should last longer (from physical damage as much as anything). A fair amount of mark up is also necessary for R&D - including testing to destruction of products, etc. I suspect a certain amount of mark up has to go on advertising, including schmoozing AV journalists (present company excepted, of course...).

But at the end of the day, a given AWG of copper, has a given resistance and given surface effects - which can be affected by impurities (hence the OFC) and coatings (to silver or not to silver). Quality of plugs, and how well they are connected will impact things... But not to the amount that some cables cost £1,000/m

Let's face it, if you've got a semi-decent cable and actually take care with fitting it - by which I mean clean the plugs and the sockets with some isopropyl alcohol and take care not to get grease from your fingers on the contacts - will probably give as good a signal as an expensive one.

 

[rgill90]

CustomCable:

rgill90:I happen to know for example, PMC wholeheartedly recommend Van Damme speaker cables - especially when they setup for recording studios. They weigh in at around £3 per metre!! How can van damme (In their own words) "Suppliers to the audio, video and broadcast industrial markets" charge this sort of money when compared to other manufacturers prices go absoltuely through the roof for the domestic market?

PMC are used very heavily in the Music Industry and the speaker cables used in the music industry are the cheapest, good quality cable they can get as they need to purchase SO much of it. I cannot imagine the recording studios procurement obtaining 100 metre drums of PSS. The Van Damme is exceptionally good cable and instead of being made of recycled copper with many impurities such as many of the other cheap copper cables the Van Damme is a high grade OFC. I have heard PMC loudspeakers sound better on other speaker cable, however PMC speakers are balanced using Van Damme.

Thanks, Custom Cable - I see what you mean - perhaps cable used in recording industry is the sort of 'sweet spot' bang-for-buck. But I mean in my googling its not even as if there are any more expensive choices on offer FOR the professional industry - I mean, its just as if the demand from the industry isn't even there. Citing 100 metre drums of PSS is a good example, but I can't even find something "in between" for the industry - its almost as if all cable (I've seen) offered to the recording industry is comparable pricewise to the lower echelons of cable in the domestic market.

[EDITED BY MODS for clarity of who's saying what]

 

[Andrew Everard]

hammill:2. Are HiFi cables overpriced? Certainly - Andrew has mentioned before that cables have the highest mark up in the hifi world. What Hifi can give away an expensive cable with the magazine subscription that cost less than the RRP of the cable - that suggests strongly that the prouction costs are a fraction of the RRP. The Currys of this world have seized on cables as a way to make extra profit in the same way as they do with extended warranties. When people on this forum spend as much on cables for a 370 BDP as they do on the player, you know something is wrong.

To clarify, retailers have historically tended to make a larger margin (in percentage terms) on smaller accessory items such as cables, headphones, and the like than they do on the big-ticket items such as TVs, receivers, speakers, etc..

And it's not just the big 'sheds' that have 'seized on cables as a way to make extra profit': specialist retailers also make very healthy margins on these smaller items.

 

[rgill90]

hammill:

1. Do cables make a differance? Probably, although mains cables and HDMI cables are a moot point.

2. Are HiFi cables overpriced? Certainly - Andrew has mentioned before that cables have the highest mark up in the hifi world. What Hifi can give away an expensive cable with the magazine subscription that cost less than the RRP of the cable - that suggests strongly that the prouction costs are a fraction of the RRP. The Currys of this world have seized on cables as a way to make extra profit in the same way as they do with extended warranties. When people on this forum spend as much on cables for a 370 BDP as they do on the player, you know something is wrong.

Yes, Hammil - completley right - in fact part of the prompt for posting this as well was the fact that curry's really tried to take advantage of selling my girlfriends brother some ridiculously priced cable for his cheap and cheerful all one surround sound setup for his PS3! Luckily he phoned me first and I said "NO WAY!" You really have to wonder....

 

[hammill]

Andrew Everard:

hammill:2. Are HiFi cables overpriced? Certainly - Andrew has mentioned before that cables have the highest mark up in the hifi world. What Hifi can give away an expensive cable with the magazine subscription that cost less than the RRP of the cable - that suggests strongly that the prouction costs are a fraction of the RRP. The Currys of this world have seized on cables as a way to make extra profit in the same way as they do with extended warranties. When people on this forum spend as much on cables for a 370 BDP as they do on the player, you know something is wrong.

To clarify, retailers have historically tended to make a larger margin (in percentage terms) on smaller accessory items such as cables, headphones, and the like than they do on the big-ticket items such as TVs, receivers, speakers, etc..

And it's not just the big 'sheds' that have 'seized on cables as a way to make extra profit': specialist retailers also make very healthy margins on these smaller items.

You are of course right, it is not just the sheds. However, I think the way the sheds sell them tends to be more inappropriate. My "mother in law" was really done by Bennetts for a scart cable and "led screen cleaner"

 

[audioaffair]

This topic really is a can of worms, but its worth discussing

Many sceptics on cables have come around (I've seen it happen) although the debate still goes on about what is sensible to spend on a cable. The 10% rule of thumb on system cost is useful, but having said that, we've spoken to people who are willing to buy Valhalla for an equally priced amp, as they want to sqeeze out all the possible performance you can.

At the end of the day, its all about what youre willing to pay for your hobby and how much such improvements in the sound are worth to you. The system must come first, but given a good system, cables can go a very long way to getting the most from it.

Best advice we can offer is ask for a cable demo and listen for yourself.. or better yet borrow some to try them over an extended period of time.

 

[AlmaataKZ]

rgill90:

Hi All

So its snowing I'm indoors and i've not much to think about. I've been to a few amazing concerts recently and looked at all the rigging. All the metres and metres of Speaker Cables I saw at the venue I presumed must have cost an absolute bomb. I came home and googled concert equipment and found all cables seemingly very very cheap. Turns out speaker cables and microphone cables for concert equipment are really quite cheap. So another thought came to me - if the domestic hi fi market are being convinced to budget 10% for cables (thats about £250 in my case) why doesn;t this rule apply to the proffessional market as well?

So I did a bit more googling - this time for some recording studio equipment with the preconception that if the domestic market are spending 10% on cables to play back their music, surely the proffessional market are using this sort of budget (or more) to RECORD the music? Turns out not so - you can buy 250 foot of professional microphone cable for about £100! 4 metres of interconnect cables from a professional store don;t go above about £20. The list is endless. I just don;t get it. The home consumer seems to be being sold extremly expensive over priced cables when compared to the professional market.

I happen to know for example, PMC wholeheartedly recommend Van Damme speaker cables - especially when they setup for recording studios. They weigh in at around £3 per metre!! How can van damme (In their own words) "Suppliers to the audio, video and broadcast industrial markets" charge this sort of money when compared to other manufacturers prices go absoltuely through the roof for the domestic market?

You may have noticed I do write this with some sceptisicm about very expensive cables / interconnects! So - am i right about this? Have i just not looked hard enough about what the trade / industry spend on their cables? Am I drawing correct comparisons? Or am I simply just talking an absolute load of misinformed pish?

hehe - maybe i can start a debate?!

Thanks for reading my ramblings / rants / comments!

What is good for concerts and studios is good for me.

out of curiosity I just checked what kind of budget ratio I have on cables (and I know I spent far too much on them than necessary). turns out about 2-3% (including replacement power cables - I needed longer ones, fancy QED multiplug extension leads, all digi and analog cables, network cables, cable sleeves, cable ties etc).

I see no reason (apart from asthetic) of using fancy cables when the rest of the signal (in terms of music production or signal path in your gear) goes through normal cables, wires and PCBs.

Normal quality cables are all that the signal needs. the 'need' for anything on top of that comes from the consumer and marketing efforts are directed there.

 

[idc]

My ramblings on cables;

1 - there are no blind tests that have found cables of any sort make a difference. All blind testing has found people cannot reliably tell one cable apart from another.

2 - pro audio appear to have realised the above and are not prepared to spend huge amounts on cables, so they go with the likes of Van Damme and Proel for example.

3 - I have made cables using Van Damme and Proel and they sound as good as the 'audiophile' cables that I have.

4 - many audiophile cable makers buy their cables off large cable makers such as Belden and then customise them. Belden do not believe in 'audiophile' claims and have used blind testing and found no difference.

5 - audiophile cable makers make contradictory claims as to how their cables are the best. some say copper is best, others silver, some use rhodium phonos, others nickle plated. Some use solid core and others use braided cables. Some have polypropoline sheathing and others teflon. If they all sound brilliant, then it does not matter how you make a cable, they all sound the same.

 

[aliEnRIK]

My personal opinion is people are being ripped off by 'big name' manufacturers such as QED, Nordost, Wireworld etc etc

Thats not to say theres no difference as ive definitely heard differences

My best advice is start with 'Van Damme UP LC-OFC' interconnects and speaker cables (Not to be confused with their 'studio grade' blue (Which is just a name)). Ive found these to sound better than the vast majority of 'big name' cables costing far more even though theyre so cheap to buy

But there are better cables. Whether anyone thinks its worth spending that amount on cables is down to the individual. Ive since gone onto Atlas OCC cables - their TITAN interconnects for example which I found for approx 120 a pair on ebay (Normally 450 quid or so). Definitely a step up from Van Damme, but costing approx £430 more?? (At full price obviously)

It was worth it to me as ive no real intention of upgrading anything else until I move house (Which with my job being in danger is no time soon)

 

[Andrew Everard]

audioaffair:This topic really is a can of worms, but its worth discussing

As it was everytime we've been round this track before.

 

[scene]

Andrew Everard:
audioaffair:This topic really is a can of worms, but its worth discussing

As it was everytime we've been round this track before.

Yes, there's a very deep rut...

 

[idc]

These threads were in a round-a-bout rut because the two sides split and there was no real effort to dig deeper to try and find out was is actually going on.

There is evidence out there that shows us answers as to (A) why cables can sound different and (B) how that works.

Unfortunately for those who do say there is a difference in cables, that difference is not found in the cable, but in their heads instead. That part is very difficult for some people to accept. Hence we still end up with argumentative cable threads.

 

[aliEnRIK]

idc:

Unfortunately for those who do say there is a difference in cables, that difference is not found in the cable, but in their heads instead. That part is very difficult for some people to accept. Hence we still end up with argumentative cable threads.

You got that wrong pal. Its because those that cant see or hear differences have bad eyesight/hearing (or simply havnt given the cable enough time)

It seems this is very difficult for YOU to accept.

 

[Andrew Everard]

idc:These threads were in a round-a-bout rut because...Golly, I thought that was going to be a well-reasoned answer for a moment there...

 

[v1c]

aliEnRIK:idc:

Unfortunately for those who do say there is a difference in cables, that difference is not found in the cable, but in their heads instead. That part is very difficult for some people to accept. Hence we still end up with argumentative cable threads.

You got that wrong pal. Its because those that cant see or hear differences have bad eyesight/hearing (or simply havnt given the cable enough time)

It seems this is very difficult for YOU to accept.

Now that's a bit harsh wouldn't you say. I've recently been converted to non believer status..... and as such am a bit miffed i've wasted so much money on cables so while i figure out what mug i can get to take some cable of my hands i've found my replacement cable 13 x 0.2 Strand Twin Speaker Cable they have another cheaper cable Bell wire for door bell and chimes which i'm sure will work as well because the cables make no difference. It may be that we have to pay more for the dearer cable because it says "speaker" in it and so are paying for the name. Not sure why the concert/studio people haven't sussed this out yet because as we non believers know it doesn't matter what cable you use they are all the same.

 

[Anonymous]

Great post and discussion. Hopefully people will dig around some more and this will become the thread with some answers - rather than it turning into a big bun fight.

What I wonder is... What cables do Abbey Road studios use to cable up these bad boys.

[http://www.bwspeakers.com/images/newsarticle/2006_Abbey_Road_med_2.jpg]

 

[Anonymous]

Just been looking into studio cabling - interesting comments from some people below:

STUDIO CONNECTIONS - what the users say

"I was really impressed with this cable. The new digital cable blew every other digital cable out the water. I am currently using the Abbey Road ' Reference' speaker cable at Olympic Studios; it has excellent imagery and natural clarity across a wide range of production styles that gives a sense of truth to the sound. It is an amazingly accurate cable."

Cenzo Townshend

Mix Engineer: New Order, Kaiser Chiefs, U2, The Cranberries, Snow Patrol, Hothouse Flowers, Echo And The Bunnymen, Skin, The Webb Brothers, Lloyd Cole, Athlete, The Lightning Seeds, Bloc Party, The Editors, Baby Shambles, Klaxons, Reverend And The Makers

"I have always been a skeptic when it comes to the benefits of using specialist 'boutique' speaker cables. However, I changed my mind pretty quickly after plugging in my new set of abbey road cables. The difference was definitely audible, I'm getting way more detail out of my monitoring environment. I was very surprised that speaker cable could deliver such differing results. They are not all created equal. I am now a believer and will be using these cables across the board in my studio. Great build quality and designed to last."

Gareth Johnson

Co-Producer / Co-Writer / Engineering / Guitar / Bass / Keys / Programming: Natalie Imbruglia, Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. 5.1 mixes: Razorlight, The Who, Noel Gallagher, Kaiser Chiefs Kasabian, , Jade Ewen, Paul Weller, Razorlight, The Coral, Bloc Party, Goldfrapp

"I use Abbey Road reference speaker cable in my mixing room and it sounds fantastic. The clarity, dynamics, and sense of space you achieve from these cables is nothing short of astounding. I always want to use the best equipment possible and this cable was the obvious choice."

Jez Coad

Producer and co writer of Simple Minds Black and White 050505, mix engineer/producer Andrew Strong (The Commitments), The Gutter Brothers, Skamp, The Surfing Brides and Prodigy [live mixes].

"Abbey Road cable sounds amazing. Its stereo imaging is second to none Who would have thought that cable could make such a difference!"

Bill Padley

Writer/producer Atomic Kitten, Ronan Keating, Shayne Ward.

"...the violins have just become brittle which is just as I recorded them... "

Arne Akselberg

Classical Mastering Engineer, Abbey Road, listening to the 96Khz master recording

of Ravel's Daphnis et Chlo‚ Suite recorded with the Berlin Philharmonic in Berlin.

Blue paper lit - time to stand back...

 

[v1c]

groberton:
Just been looking into studio cabling - interesting comments from some people below:

STUDIO CONNECTIONS - what the users say

"I was really impressed with this cable. The new digital cable blew every other digital cable out the water. I am currently using the Abbey Road ' Reference' speaker cable at Olympic Studios; it has excellent imagery and natural clarity across a wide range of production styles that gives a sense of truth to the sound. It is an amazingly accurate cable."

Cenzo Townshend

Mix Engineer: New Order, Kaiser Chiefs, U2, The Cranberries, Snow Patrol, Hothouse Flowers, Echo And The Bunnymen, Skin, The Webb Brothers, Lloyd Cole, Athlete, The Lightning Seeds, Bloc Party, The Editors, Baby Shambles, Klaxons, Reverend And The Makers

"I have always been a skeptic when it comes to the benefits of using specialist 'boutique' speaker cables. However, I changed my mind pretty quickly after plugging in my new set of abbey road cables. The difference was definitely audible, I'm getting way more detail out of my monitoring environment. I was very surprised that speaker cable could deliver such differing results. They are not all created equal. I am now a believer and will be using these cables across the board in my studio. Great build quality and designed to last."

Gareth Johnson

Co-Producer / Co-Writer / Engineering / Guitar / Bass / Keys / Programming: Natalie Imbruglia, Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. 5.1 mixes: Razorlight, The Who, Noel Gallagher, Kaiser Chiefs Kasabian, , Jade Ewen, Paul Weller, Razorlight, The Coral, Bloc Party, Goldfrapp

"I use Abbey Road reference speaker cable in my mixing room and it sounds fantastic. The clarity, dynamics, and sense of space you achieve from these cables is nothing short of astounding. I always want to use the best equipment possible and this cable was the obvious choice."

Jez Coad

Producer and co writer of Simple Minds Black and White 050505, mix engineer/producer Andrew Strong (The Commitments), The Gutter Brothers, Skamp, The Surfing Brides and Prodigy [live mixes].

"Abbey Road cable sounds amazing. Its stereo imaging is second to none Who would have thought that cable could make such a difference!"

Bill Padley

Writer/producer Atomic Kitten, Ronan Keating, Shayne Ward.

"...the violins have just become brittle which is just as I recorded them... "

Arne Akselberg

Classical Mastering Engineer, Abbey Road, listening to the 96Khz master recording

of Ravel's Daphnis et Chlo‚ Suite recorded with the Berlin Philharmonic in Berlin.

Blue paper lit - time to stand back...

I'm sorry that's just not possible the real reasons they have said this is......

A) They have been paid to

B) They were told to by the management

C) They think they hear a difference but it's all in their heads

D) They don't know what they are talking about

E) Quote's taken out of context they were actually talking about something else completely different.