Better 3D soundstage

[yani]

Just thought I would post my experience while mucking about with my speakers position last night. As I await the arrival of a pair of KEF R300's for home trial (not due until end of next month) I have been reading up on best placement. I want to be fully armed when they arrive. I came across the equilateral traingle idea where the distance between speakers equals the distance from listener to each speaker.

Having a pair of Celestion A1's at present which are nearly exactly the same cabinet dimension as the R300's I decided last night to move them into the ideal equilateral position to my seating position. I admit it was mainly to see how the speakers looked sitting a good bit further into the room. First instinct was they seemed far too close and too far into the room. My room is small at 3m x 3m. Distance between speakers ended up at 2.3m with the same distance from each to myself. So purley on looks it felt rather different and strange.

Picking up my first CD and pressing play. WOW , cannot believe the difference. Seriously large soundstage with far greater detail. Bass tight and focused. A serious feeling of space between instruments and a greater feeling of being there. I then tried a few more CD's and also found them to exhibit a greater overall holographic soundstage. I feel slighly annoyed at myself for not trying this sooner having had my speakers for 14 years !!. It might not look well proportioned but boy it now sounds it.

 

[ellisdj]

This is an interesting video about speaker placement - the mains speaker who seems to really know his stuff on this topic suggests a slightly different method - I think its 86% from memory.

So not quite equilateral speakers 86% (rough starting point) apart this gives the elements in the soundstage more fullness which is then more believable for reality - somehting like that - interesting watch I found.

They discuss equilateral setup as well I think - main speaker really says speaker need to go where you get the best bass because ultimately you cannot change this with toe in etc

 

[Gazzip]

Also experimenting with toe in can make a huge difference to the listening experience, especially when it comes to the higher frequencies.....

 

[yani]

I will use the position last night as my starting point. I was intending trying to move them back a touch purely for aesthetic reasons but don't want to upset the sounstage I now have. I will have a look at the video which might also allow me to shortent the distance between speakers.

Honestly the difference is quite sustantial from what I already had. It was pretty decent before but it just feels so much different and more realistic. I was utterly stunned with the sound. Obviously the recording quality varies so with some CD's it is better than others. But overall all the CD's I played sounded better.

 

[ellisdj]

Speaker positioning is definatetly critical - for lots of reasons - toe in just as critical I have found even with wide dispersion tweeters like ribbons. But that will be person specific as we all have different shaped heads and ears

I had a demo a couple of weeks ago of a high end £100k + system and from that I could tell when I got home my speakers were too close to the back wall and moved them out a bit.

Sods the aesthetics its all about SQ!!

 

[yani]

I had seen this idea a while back with regards the triangle but I admit I took it with a pinch of salt. I felt my sound was already pretty good from a soundstage point of view. The speakers also looked 'right' from a position point of view with regards room layout. I have also toed the speakers in slightly but as mentioned I will experiment and see what suits best.

I know it feels like the speakers are too far into the room but my ears are telling me differently. It was a bit late last night so I could only try 3 or 4 CD's. I am now keen to see what difference I will hear with the rest of my music collection.

My only problem is my wife needs the computer in this room tonight so I will be grounded.

 

[SteveR750]

Now this is a much more intersting topic than cables

I've spent some time messing about with the position of mine, it's not perfect, but like most people there are constraints as it's a house for living in after all with other people. I've got mine around 1.5ft from back wall, well in from the walls, listening seat is around twice the distance between the speakers, with a about 15-20 degrees of toe in:

 

[SteveR750]

Lord knows how to unstretch the image.....this site *wacko*

 

[relocated]

Lord knows how to unstretch the image.....this site *wacko*

What image?

 

[SteveR750]

Lord knows how to unstretch the image.....this site *wacko*

What image?

The one I posted, and can see on my PC anyway....

 

[Womaz]

I have only just found out what a HUGE difference speaker positioning makes. Three years ago i got my current set up and I do have limited room as I dont want my kit dominating my living area. So unfortunatley the hif fi was in the corner and so were the speakers. Pointing out into the open room and only about 3 ft apart. Not ideal and I knew that, but my chain of though was that it was good quite expensive kit so it should be good no matter where. The PMC brouchure also stated that they were not placement fussy.

So for 3 years this is how it was. Then about a month ago I had a week off work and decided to move it into the middle of the wall. this meant my listening position was right in the middle. This also enabled me to get the speakers 6 ft apart.

The difference was quite astonishing. My speakers filled the room and the soundstage was a different class. Cables and stuff a little untidy as hifi now about 8 ft from the socket, but they ARE STAYING THERE!. I just cant believe how long it took me to do this and how cynical I was about stuff like this in the past.

The bass is better, tighter and the speakers fill my room.

 

[Gazzip]

Now try moving your listening seat away from the wall behind it if you have room to do so whilst maintaining the triangle relationship. That will also reap significant benefits by preventing wave reflection back at you from behind.

 

[Womaz]

Now try moving your listening seat away from the wall behind it if you have room to do so whilst maintaining the triangle relationship. That will also reap significant benefits by preventing wave reflection back at you from behind.

if that was for me.....? Not possible afraid as room only 14ft wide. *biggrin*

 

[ellisdj]

If your going to spend big dollar on kit and want good sound then the sound has to come first over everything else - in regards to placement and all sorts. Good sound doesnt come from good kit - it comes from good setup of the kit and paying attention to details

It cant be second fiddle, otherwise it will always be compromised - thats my take on it, I am mad about it - my room is totally kitted out for sound semi dedicated as its only a small house.

I dont see the point spending loads on kit if you dont do it justice by putting it the best you can in the room you are going to listen to it in. If it doesnt suit the room because its too big or whatever you have bought the wrong stuff.

 

[ellisdj]

Now try moving your listening seat away from the wall behind it if you have room to do so whilst maintaining the triangle relationship. That will also reap significant benefits by preventing wave reflection back at you from behind.

This is only semi right - you will not stop rear refelctions by moving off the back wall - it just means you are not sitting on a boundary of the room where bass collects thats all.

Unless you treat the rear wall doesnt matter where you sit you will still get the reflected sound off it

 

[Womaz]

If your going to spend big dollar on kit and want good sound then the sound has to come first over everything else - in regards to placement and all sorts. Good sound doesnt come from good kit - it comes from good setup of the kit and paying attention to details

It cant be second fiddle, otherwise it will always be compromised - thats my take on it, I am mad about it - my room is totally kitted out for sound semi dedicated as its only a small house.

I dont see the point spending loads on kit if you dont do it justice by putting it the best you can in the room you are going to listen to it in. If it doesnt suit the room because its too big or whatever you have bought the wrong stuff.

I agree, just took me three years to realise it *biggrin*

 

[ellisdj]

me too, thrown money at things for years and wasnt getting back, so was throwing more money at it.

still throwing money at it but a bit more targeted now he says

 

[yani]

Can't agree more. I am the very same having had these speakers for fourteen years in this 'dedicated' small listening room. Now I find I have not had the best they could offer all these years.

It also allowed me to hear details and confirmed for me the tweeters are my weakest link. At least I can judge the KEF's when they arrive, at their best. These will be going in exactly the same position.

If you have never tried doing the equi triangle thing. Pleeeeeease try it.

 

[Gazzip]

Now try moving your listening seat away from the wall behind it if you have room to do so whilst maintaining the triangle relationship. That will also reap significant benefits by preventing wave reflection back at you from behind.

This is only semi right - you will not stop rear refelctions by moving off the back wall - it just means you are not sitting on a boundary of the room where bass collects thats all.

Unless you treat the rear wall doesnt matter where you sit you will still get the reflected sound off it

Half my post is missing. I went on to talk about treating the rear wall, bass in corners (horizontal and vertical) and potential issues of HF timing from rear reflection from the back/side walls if left untreated. Stupid website.

 

[ellisdj]

Now try moving your listening seat away from the wall behind it if you have room to do so whilst maintaining the triangle relationship. That will also reap significant benefits by preventing wave reflection back at you from behind.

This is only semi right - you will not stop rear refelctions by moving off the back wall - it just means you are not sitting on a boundary of the room where bass collects thats all.

Unless you treat the rear wall doesnt matter where you sit you will still get the reflected sound off it

Half my post is missing. I went on to talk about treating the rear wall, bass in corners (horizontal and vertical) and potential issues of HF timing from rear reflection from the back/side walls if left untreated. Stupid website.

sorry i didnt know

 

[MeanandGreen]

If your going to spend big dollar on kit and want good sound then the sound has to come first over everything else - in regards to placement and all sorts. Good sound doesnt come from good kit - it comes from good setup of the kit and paying attention to details

It cant be second fiddle, otherwise it will always be compromised - thats my take on it, I am mad about it - my room is totally kitted out for sound semi dedicated as its only a small house.

I dont see the point spending loads on kit if you dont do it justice by putting it the best you can in the room you are going to listen to it in. If it doesnt suit the room because its too big or whatever you have bought the wrong stuff.

Totally agree with this. Setup and positioning is EVERYTHING. Even modest kit can perform surprisingly well if it's properly set up, you are always listening to the colourations of the room. The actual kit isn't as important as the room and positioning.

 

[davedotco]

For those of you not prepaired to turn your home into a fully treated 'playback suite' it is entirely possible to get great sound in your living room, but it does mean choosing wisely.

A good dealer will take this into account when putting a system to gether for you, properly chosen to suit your requirements it can be made to work very well indeed.

I am not minimising the importance of set up and placement, just the opposite in fact, but emphasising the correct choice of equipment for your requirements, your room and its positioning in it.

Remember, many reviews take place in optimised rooms, (expensively treated in the case of WHF) and with perfect setup with speakers in free space. Components that sound great in such circumstances often perform less well in domestic surroundings, so for home use it is important to look beyond the usual 5* products to the ones that will actually work in your home.

 

[yani]

I think this is so right. Items which sound great in the shop can at times be a major let down at home. I found the Focal 906 stand mounts where very good at home and at the dealers. Living with them for a whole week though proved to me they were not quite suited to my taste. They do play loud without distortion but somehow I felt they failed to 'move air'. The scale was just not large enough for my taste. I think I require a bit more bass foundation. I do like to fill the room with sound, it seems to make music so much more enjoyable.

I did manage to get into my room (after the wife that is) for a while last night. If I could describe the difference I now feel it would be to say my system has 'come alive'. There is just so much realism to everything now. Instruments have far more body and scale. Vocals seem richer and more prominent. The piano in particular sounds way better than before. Deeper and fuller sounding.

I am still amazed at the difference moving my speakers has made. I am sure it shows !!!!!!!

 

[Glacialpath]

Glad to hear such relativley simple adustment has made such a big improvment. I sit hear reading this thread and look at my Home Cinema floorstanders and wonder how much the DVDs wooden storage units are effecting my sound stage.

I'm almost in an equilateral triangle when I listen to music on them or watch films of course and the soundstage out behind them is pretty good, like an extension to my room beyond the wall behind them.

At the moment I don'e have anywhere else for the DVDs so I won't find out how good my set up can sound 1. till I get my Hi-Fi from the bedroom on the same speakers and 2. till I'm able to start a room from scratch to fit around the HT/HF.