Anyone tried tube amp with PMC

[newlash09]

Hi all...good morning.

Just wanted to know if anyone has heard any PMC speakers at the end of a tube amp.

I was considering a line magnetic LM 219ia for my next upgrade. And my local dealer has suggested that SET amps with B300 tubes are best matched with full range single driver speaker designs.

He has suggested a Naim supernait 2 to go with the PMC's. And he is offering a huge discount of 1800 pounds on the 6600 pound retail price in my country.

The discount does look appealing. But iam not sure if a supernait2 will be a big enough step up from my present parasound for so much more money.

So was wondering if anyone has heard any of the above two combinations. PMC twenty 26+ tube or PMC twenty 26+ supernait 2.

And the line magnetic will actually cost 1200 pounds more than the supernait 2. And the last time I heard a tube pre amp with some B&W diamond speakers, I fell in love with the naturalness of the vocals, and the feeling of the singer in the room. So my first preference will be a tube amp if doable with the PMC's.

Thanks for your time and suggestions .

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

I think for your 2026's.....a supernait won't be enough......nac 282/272 with a nap 250.2 /250dr would be a recommended pairing from the usual suspects on the naim forum......I read a review recently where someone was using pmc's with one of the prima luna valves.....I really like the look of the dialogue premium hp.....with a set of kt120's and that beefy power supply...I would like to think that,that amp would get those pmc towers bouncing.

 

[davedotco]

I have not tried the combinations you have in mind, so this is a general post about matching valve amplifiers and modern speakers.

Valve amplifiers in general have a very high (compared to solid state) output impedance, single ended designs especially so. The transfer of power from the amp to the speaker is thus more difficult, particularly when the impedance of the speaker is quite complex and relatively low, as it is with your speakers.

The shifting impedance will cause a variation in the response of the amplifier, frequency response, dynamic range, power delivery etc are all affected which means the results will be far from linear and probably measure quite poorly. Now, this does not mean that it will sound bad, but it does mean that there is a huge 'hit and miss' factor with such pairings, with some aspects sounding great, others perhaps less so.

This is why you dealer is recommending the use of simple full range drivers with SETs, results are more even and predictable in pretty much every way, the antithisis of the complex 3 way design of your PMCs. There is a certain 'quality' that you will get from good SETs but unless you design the whole system around them this can be massively offset by their limitations

The 'sensible' solution with speakers of this type is to use a push-pull amplifier of good modern design, easily done here in the uk, but perhaps more difficult in your home market. If I was tasked with buying a valve amplifier to suit speakers such as yours, my first thought would be a used but refurbished, Audio Research power amplifier, something like a Classic 60 or VT60 model, either giving around 60 watts from paired KT88s, these are stable, well designed amplifiers that will drive all but the most difficult of loads.

If buying new, look for amps of a similar basic spec, paired KT88s, 6550s or similar diving around 60 watts in pentode mode, or 25-30 watts as triodes. Take a look here for guidance.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I haven’t tried a tube amp with pmc but wouldn’t pair pmc speakers with naim, both the twenty range and twenty5 range. I think that amplifier you are looking at will be underwhelmed on your speakers. Naim is always a rich sound, so are pmc, so it will be overkill pairing if you don’t like too much smoothness. If you are like me, my preference is a bit of detail and good balance but not screaming out bright detail. In other words pair smooth speakers with detailed amps or vice versa. Naim only seems to come into its own with good balance when you spend a lot more, and I’d advocate it with more expensive amps.

If I were you I’d look at what you know in parasound and go from there, especially if you are spending the type of money in the naim you mentioned, and you can add to current system ie maybe adding another parasound power amplifier in a bi amped set up. Not sure if possible?

If using a tube amp it may take the same sound in the direction of the pmc/naim combo.

 

[CnoEvil]

FWIW. Here is my opinion.

- If you want to go down the SET route, then you are basically starting again and matching speakers that suit (Like Audio Note)

- The 3/4 way house, is to get a Valve amp with more power, from the likes of Icon Audio and Jadis.

- The half way house is to look at a hybrid, like Pathos or Vincent

- If you want to go SS, then make sure you listen to a variety of brands eg. Arcam, Sudgen, Devialet, Luxman, Accuphase and Lavardin.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

Plenty of folks use naim/pmc combo including myself and I don't feel it's overly warm or smooth sounding..my nait xs with b&w cm5's...that was smooth sounding and almost bored me to tears.....the pmc's brought back the sparkle....but I would still recommend above supernait level with that callibre of pmc speakers....I believe my superuniti is derived from supernait technology and I wouldn't get anything above the twenty 24..(.probably the 23 would be bang on)if I had the budget and space of course.

 

[newlash09]

I have not tried the combinations you have in mind, so this is a general post about matching valve amplifiers and modern speakers.

Valve amplifiers in general have a very high (compared to solid state) output impedance, single ended designs especially so. The transfer of power from the amp to the speaker is thus more difficult, particularly when the impedance of the speaker is quite complex and relatively low, as it is with your speakers.

The shifting impedance will cause a variation in the response of the amplifier, frequency response, dynamic range, power delivery etc are all affected which means the results will be far from linear and probably measure quite poorly. Now, this does not mean that it will sound bad, but it does mean that there is a huge 'hit and miss' factor with such pairings, with some aspects sounding great, others perhaps less so.

This is why you dealer is recommending the use of simple full range drivers with SETs, results are more even and predictable in pretty much every way, the antithisis of the complex 3 way design of your PMCs. There is a certain 'quality' that you will get from good SETs but unless you design the whole system around them this can be massively offset by their limitations

The 'sensible' solution with speakers of this type is to use a push-pull amplifier of good modern design, easily done here in the uk, but perhaps more difficult in your home market. If I was tasked with buying a valve amplifier to suit speakers such as yours, my first thought would be a used but refurbished, Audio Research power amplifier, something like a Classic 60 or VT60 model, either giving around 60 watts from paired KT88s, these are stable, well designed amplifiers that will drive all but the most difficult of loads.

If buying new, look for amps of a similar basic spec, paired KT88s, 6550s or similar diving around 60 watts in pentode mode, or 25-30 watts as triodes. Take a look here for guidance.

Your reply was indeed very informative and enlightening. I wasn't aware there was such complex physics involved behind the pairing . Will certainly bear the above in mind.

Unfortunately icon audio is presently not available in India . However I just found that audionote has entered the Indian market in January this year. Their prices do look steep, but this is in line with the pricing of most British gear here.

After speaking some time going through their site, I understand that they have split their gear into 6 performance levels. But I couldn't find any pricing details for anything except their ott amplifier which I think is their entry level model. So can you suggest something from their line up that could work with the PMC's. I can send them an email and ask for a quotation. They seem to be serious about the Indian market, and have opened up a dedicated listening room as well. But by their website, it seems they only have their own speakers on demo.

Alternatively, do you think I can just use the parasound for the bass, and let the tubes drive the mid range and the tweeter. I could use some electronics to match the levels. But I think it is doable.

Thanks again for taking the time to write such a informative post

 

[newlash09]

I think for your 2026's.....a supernait won't be enough......nac 282/272 with a nap 250.2 /250dr would be a recommended pairing from the usual suspects on the naim forum......I read a review recently where someone was using pmc's with one of the prima luna valves.....I really like the look of the dialogue premium hp.....with a set of kt120's and that beefy power supply...I would like to think that,that amp would get those pmc towers bouncing.

Even I was not sure if the supernait was enough of a upgrade for the PMC's. On the Naim forums, most folks seem to be using your suggested pairing of NAC + NAP. But the outlay does really look steep. Especially so considering that I will have to get both the nac and the nap. And iam yet to find out if I like the naim sound to invest so much. Besides , the whole point in thinking of a upgrade was to add tonal richness and timbral honesty to my music, which I had heard with tubes . From your experience, do you think even Naim nac+nap add the euphony and holographic presentation that tubes have.

 

[newlash09]

I haven’t tried a tube amp with pmc but wouldn’t pair pmc speakers with naim, both the twenty range and twenty5 range. I think that amplifier you are looking at will be underwhelmed on your speakers. Naim is always a rich sound, so are pmc, so it will be overkill pairing if you don’t like too much smoothness. If you are like me, my preference is a bit of detail and good balance but not screaming out bright detail. In other words pair smooth speakers with detailed amps or vice versa. Naim only seems to come into its own with good balance when you spend a lot more, and I’d advocate it with more expensive amps.

If I were you I’d look at what you know in parasound and go from there, especially if you are spending the type of money in the naim you mentioned, and you can add to current system ie maybe adding another parasound power amplifier in a bi amped set up. Not sure if possible?

If using a tube amp it may take the same sound in the direction of the pmc/naim combo. 

Even I seem to like your kind of sound for EDM. Which makes up most of my primary listening. Detail, musicality, rythmik and punchy. All of which the parasound deliver to a certain extent. However there is something mellow about the whole presentation. Maybe I should call it effortlessness. And I like it too. And I haven't ever pushed the knob beyond 11 o'clock. Which is already blazingly loud, without letting me feel so. It is only when my
daughter tells me that she can hear my tracks from the garden below, that I realise how loud iam playing.

I did consider adding a parasound a21, which might give me more of the same sound that I like. Maybe slightly better control due to more power, and more headroom. I could go bi amping to get more dynamic headroom too. But essentially the same sound. So was thinking if there were other ways of getting a different sound just for the few vocal tracks I listen to from time to time, depending on my mood. And per past experience I liked the sound of tubes. So was thinking about it. But per all the advise so far, seems to be difficult or beyond my means .

 

[Electro]

You could just stop floundering about and buy an Electrocompaniet amp!

That way there would be no more worring about valve amps, power output , activating speakers , etc etc etc .

You would be able to listen to music using you PMC's without all the distractions and the worries of upgrading, full stop .

If you try one and I am wrong about this then I will post a video of me eating a hat . *i-m_so_happy* *biggrin*

http://www.profx.com/Electrocompaniet

Electrocompaniet Distributor

PRO FX
Dynamic House
64, Church Street
Bengaluru – 560001
India
Tel. 91 8065 686722
E-mail: www.profx.com

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

Hi Newlash..I'm afraid I can't answer that question bud...Rainsooth has listened to a fair bit of pre/power naim gear over the years and I'm pretty restricted to what I've owned...nait xs /flatcap 2x and then the superuniti....so anything I said would be guess work unfortunately....but the naim sound is more about drive..rhythm....etc.....I would urge you to go and have a listen to some of the pre/power configurations though.....I have heard they can sound very good at the mid to higher end.....I really do want to try a valve amp myself at some point......and it's the prima luna dialogue premium hp that has whetted my appetite.lol....but that won't be for a while yet.

 

[newlash09]

FWIW. Here is my opinion.

- If you want to go down the SET route, then you are basically starting again and matching speakers that suit (Like Audio Note)

- The 3/4  way house, is to get a Valve amp with more power, from the likes of Icon Audio and Jadis.

- The half way house is to look at a hybrid, like Pathos or Vincent

- If you want to go SS, then make sure you listen to a variety of brands eg. Arcam, Sudgen, Devialet, Luxman, Accuphase and Lavardin.

I don't have room for a second setup. And I really like the PMC's for what they do to most of my music. So don't want to start with a complete new system . Just that I was thinking of adding some tube magic once in a while only for vocal tracks. A part time solution will also do.

Do you think a tube pre + SS amp can get me that tube magic. The new McIntosh mc 252 is already available in the US. And I could get one my friends to lug it back for me from there. And if even it's 100 watts weren't enough, I could always use the parasound for the base.

I actually think that if the McIntosh works...it would be one easy fretless solution. Please let me know what you think

 

[newlash09]

You could just stop floundering about and buy an Electrocompaniet amp!

That way there would be no more worring about valve amps, power output , activating speakers , etc etc etc .

You would be able to listen to music using you PMC's without all the distractions and the worries of upgrading, full stop .

If you try one and I am wrong about this then I will post a video of me eating a hat . *i-m_so_happy*  *biggrin*

http://www.profx.com/Electrocompaniet

Electrocompaniet Distributor

PRO FXDynamic House64, Church StreetBengaluru – 560001IndiaTel. 91 8065 686722E-mail: www.profx.com
[/quot

For sharing the dealer details for india. Will check them out, as they are not too far from where I live. Probably a 6 hrs drive. I have a friend coming down from the USA in June, so iam looking at getting stuff from there, as it is probably half of what it costs here in india. And co incidentally there is a electrocompaniet ECI-5 MKII available in my friends city for a reasonable price of 3500 usd. The same price could get me a brand new McIntosh mc252. So would be curious to know if you have any experience with this particular electrocompaniet amp. Thanks again

 

[Craig M.]

The tubes and B&W setup you liked so much, did you hear the B&Ws without the tube pre? Could it be you just really liked the B&Ws?

 

[newlash09]

Hi Newlash..I'm afraid I can't answer that question bud...Rainsooth has listened to a fair bit of pre/power naim gear over the years and I'm pretty restricted to what I've owned...nait xs /flatcap 2x and then the superuniti....so anything I said would be guess work unfortunately....but the naim sound is more about drive..rhythm....etc.....I would urge you to go and have a listen to some of the pre/power configurations though.....I have heard they can sound very good at the mid to higher end.....I really do want to try a valve amp myself at some point......and it's the prima luna dialogue premium hp that has whetted my appetite.lol....but that won't be for a while yet.

The prat of Naim is indeed very famous. But judging by the price of the supernait2 in India at 6600 pounds. Getting their pre+pro will be out of my reach. I had queried about the supernait2 because it was just within my reach. The rest is unimaginable

The primal una is indeed very well received. And was infact in contention till I came across the beastly line magnetic LM219ia. Now iam considering the McIntosh and waiting to see Cnoevil's advise if this will still give me the tube sound iam yearning for.

 

[newlash09]

The tubes and B&W setup you liked so much, did you hear the B&Ws without the tube pre?  Could it be you just really liked the B&Ws?

I only heard them through the ayon tube pre amp + parasound power amp. I would have asked my friend to try without the tube pre. But he didn't have any other premap at hand.

I could carry my amp to his place next time and see how it sounds. Parasound halo pre amp out to parasound power amp. Why didn't I think about this before

Now iam on my boat, and can only get back in June. But my yearning for a new sound probably can't wait that long. And besides I want to capitalise on my friends return trip from the USA, where gear is much cheaper.

 

[CnoEvil]

FWIW. Here is my opinion.

- If you want to go down the SET route, then you are basically starting again and matching speakers that suit (Like Audio Note)

- The 3/4 way house, is to get a Valve amp with more power, from the likes of Icon Audio and Jadis.

- The half way house is to look at a hybrid, like Pathos or Vincent

- If you want to go SS, then make sure you listen to a variety of brands eg. Arcam, Sudgen, Devialet, Luxman, Accuphase and Lavardin.

I don't have room for a second setup. And I really like the PMC's for what they do to most of my music. So don't want to start with a complete new system . Just that I was thinking of adding some tube magic once in a while only for vocal tracks. A part time solution will also do.

Do you think a tube pre + SS amp can get me that tube magic. The new McIntosh mc 252 is already available in the US. And I could get one my friends to lug it back for me from there. And if even it's 100 watts weren't enough, I could always use the parasound for the base.

I actually think that if the McIntosh works...it would be one easy fretless solution. Please let me know what you think

I think that there is 3 types of Tube Magic (which can only (fully be achieved with Tubes):

- SET Magic

- Triode Magic

- Ultra Linear Magic (often switchable with Triode on the likes of Icon Audio)

If you go Hybrid - which is a nice balance between Valves and SS - you have 2 options:

eg. Valve Pre/AB SS (Pathos Logos) or Valve Pre/Class A SS (Pathos Inpol 2)

The Class A hybrid will give less power, but be more euphonic.

IMO. You should give McIntosh a go...it might be what you are looking for.

 

[Electro]

You could just stop floundering about and buy an Electrocompaniet amp!

That way there would be no more worring about valve amps, power output , activating speakers , etc etc etc .

You would be able to listen to music using you PMC's without all the distractions and the worries of upgrading, full stop .

If you try one and I am wrong about this then I will post a video of me eating a hat . *i-m_so_happy* *biggrin*

http://www.profx.com/Electrocompaniet

Electrocompaniet Distributor

PRO FXDynamic House64, Church StreetBengaluru – 560001IndiaTel. 91 8065 686722E-mail: www.profx.com

[/quot

For sharing the dealer details for india. Will check them out, as they are not too far from where I live. Probably a 6 hrs drive. I have a friend coming down from the USA in June, so iam looking at getting stuff from there, as it is probably half of what it costs here in india. And co incidentally there is a electrocompaniet ECI-5 MKII available in my friends city for a reasonable price of 3500 usd. The same price could get me a brand new McIntosh mc252. So would be curious to know if you have any experience with this particular electrocompaniet amp. Thanks again

Yes the ECI5 MK2 is a very good integrated amplifier indeed that will easily drive the PMC26's to insane spl's without a hint of clipping and it retains a very spacious, balanced and ultra detailed presentation at all listening levels.

The first thing you will notice is the bass, there will be more of it and it will be very deep, powerful, controled, textured and hard hitting if the recording demands it .

Then you will notice the soundstage and imaging that reaches far outside the confines of the speakers with most good recordings.

Everything will be laid out before you in fine detail but still sound like live energetic real music , it will be almost impossible to listen to one part of the music because your attention will be totally drawn to the music as a whole not just a series of random notes and instruments playing in the same space .

To sum it up you will hear real music not music played on a HiFi system.

If you can try it first or get a sale or return deal then just go for it .

As for the Mc 252 you are really going to need a matching pre amp to get the best from it, they are quite fussy about preamp matching.

That said I do love the McIntosh sound , they share some of the qualities that Electrocompaniet amps deliver but they can't do the bass or control like Electrocompaniet can . *biggrin*

 

[CnoEvil]

FWIW. I think the ECI-5 is a terrific choice and would be a great match with PMC. It's one of the few AB amps that I like.

 

[newlash09]

Thanks for the suggestions on the electrocompaniet. Decision done. Will ping my friend to get me the amp straight away. I could always move it on ( with a slight profit ) if I don't like it. But iam sure I will like it ...thanks a ton for your swift advise

 

[CnoEvil]

Thanks for the suggestions on the electrocompaniet. Decision done. Will ping my friend to get me the amp straight away. I could always move it on ( with a slight profit ) if I don't like it. But iam sure I will like it ...thanks a ton for your swift advise

Good Man...that was quick.

Let us know what you think.

 

[newlash09]

Thanks for the suggestions on the electrocompaniet. Decision done. Will ping my friend to get me the amp straight away. I could always move it on ( with a slight profit ) if I don't like it. But iam sure I will like it ...thanks a ton for your swift advise

Good Man...that was quick.

Let us know what you think.

Already forwarded the dealers details to my friend. He will contact them tomorrow morning to work out the sale.

But my friend looks a little doubtful if he can lug the 20 kgs back, with a infact son in tow. So keeping my fingers crossed for now

 

[CnoEvil]

Is it New, Ex-dem or pre-owned? Warrenty?

If it's not new, your friend would need to hear it.

 

[Infiniteloop]

I'll make a prediction:

The OP will hook up the new Electrocompaniet Amp and be rightfully pleased with it. It will sound different to what he has now.

However, it is another SS Amp and the whole point of this thread is that the OP has an itch to scratch.

That itch will still be there.

The only way to satisfy that itch is with a full Valve Amp. - No compromises.

 

[Craig M.]

I'll make a prediction:

That itch will still be there.

My prediction would be most, if not all, of what he heard at his friends is down to the speakers and room. Hearing a new system for the first time in an unfamiliar room and declaring the sound to be down to the amp is crazy. In my opinion.