Anyone compared the sound of Focal Celestee balanced vs 'normal' cable through a balanced amp?

[Horowitz]

My headphone listening is currently through a Naim Uniti Atom HE, which offers 2 different balanced outputs and one unbalanced. My cans of choice are Focal Celestee closed back, which ship with only an unbalanced (and rather short) cable. Has anyone had the same curiousity as me AND had the chance to compare this with a balanced output/cable option?
I'd welcome any serious opinions that don't just say 'most normal ears won't hear a difference', or 'only your dog might notice'! The one gift my dear musical prodigy of a mum did pass on was exceptional hearing and 'sound appreciation' (who cares that I can't play piano or anything else for that matter) . I also have plenty of audio production experience, so am well used to listening analytically and trusting my own lugholes. But as I said, I'm really curious...
I'm reluctant to fork out £200 or so for a 3m balanced cable if I'm unlikely to hear any appreciable improvement!!The Focals already sound amazing, even compared to my Sennheiser 650s, but I'd love to know if I could squeeze even more pleasure out of what should be a near ideal set-up for premium headphone enjoyment.

 

[Friesiansam]

I bought a longer and more flexible cable, for my Elegias, from Oidio Sound. They will do you a balanced cable.

OIDIO SOUND

Premium handmade headphone cables and interconnects, made in the UK by OIDIO SOUND.

oidiosound.co.uk

 

[Horowitz]

I bought a longer and more flexible cable, for my Elegias, from Oidio Sound. They will do you a balanced cable.

OIDIO SOUND

Premium handmade headphone cables and interconnects, made in the UK by OIDIO SOUND.

oidiosound.co.uk

Thanks - I've looked at them and been tempted. But it's not really absolute price that I'm concerned about - it's whether anyone can tell me if the difference I'm likely (or not!) to hear with my gear will be worth an extra investment (of some cost or other). A long shot, I know, but I'm hoping someone might have listened through the Atom HE and can give their impressions of balanced vs unbalanced sound quality.

 

[Vincent Kars]

You might have a look at Hart Audio Cables. I see a "balanced" cable for Focal USD 42.
You can have it terminated with a 4 pin mini XLR. This can be combined with their "interconnects". like mini xlr to Pentaconn, mini to 4 pin XLR, etc. Makes it easy to change connectors.
I do think their prices are reasonable.

Had a look at the Naim website. The only thing they say is
1.5W RMS per channel into 16ohms Suitable for headphones from 16ohms and upwards

Not very informative and a bit of a surprise as I expected different specs for different outputs.
"Balanced" in case of a headphone means an amp with active grounds. Instead of 1 amp per channel, you have 2, one pushing, one pulling. Hence you need a 2 x2 single ended connection to the headphone.
Most of the time the balanced part is substantially louder compared with the single ended simply because you have 2 amps per channel instead of one. As you use 2, distortion and impedance will increase as well assuming identical amps for both type of connections.

 

[Horowitz]

You might have a look at Hart Audio Cables. I see a "balanced" cable for Focal USD 42.
You can have it terminated with a 4 pin mini XLR. This can be combined with their "interconnects". like mini xlr to Pentaconn, mini to 4 pin XLR, etc. Makes it easy to change connectors.
I do think their prices are reasonable.

Had a look at the Naim website. The only thing they say is
1.5W RMS per channel into 16ohms Suitable for headphones from 16ohms and upwards

Not very informative and a bit of a surprise as I expected different specs for different outputs.
"Balanced" in case of a headphone means an amp with active grounds. Instead of 1 amp per channel, you have 2, one pushing, one pulling. Hence you need a 2 x2 single ended connection to the headphone.
Most of the time the balanced part is substantially louder compared with the single ended simply because you have 2 amps per channel instead of one. As you use 2, distortion and impedance will increase as well assuming identical amps for both type of connections.

Thanks for all the info In idiot-proof speak, does that suggest I'd experience louder volume for a given amp setting, but also more distortion? I'm guessing that the distortion would be technically measurable but subjectively not! Could the balanced option have any beneficial effect on perceived soundstage and/or instrument separation, for example?

 

[Vincent Kars]

Depends.
Most of the time it is doubling the power. Doubling the distortion too but if a single amp has 0.0001, the double will be 0.0002 so nothing to write home about. Likewise if the impedance is 0.1, 0.2 is the double but will it audibly affect the damping?

However, I have also seen implementation where "balanced" produced less distortion compared with the unbalanced!
Due to a lack of spec's there is simply nothing to say about the Naim regarding these aspects.

the balanced option have any beneficial effect on perceived soundstage and/or instrument separation, for example?

Not very likely if identical amps are used for both balanced and unbalanced.
If different amps are used, all bets are of.
Your best bet, find a balanced cable at a decent price.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I'd welcome any serious opinions that don't just say 'most normal ears won't hear a difference'

...but you do (hopefully) understand why someone might give you that as a serious answer.
You've told us how good your ears are, so it would indeed be a good idea for you to judge for yourself.
I say that for two reasons. Firstly differences can be subtle.
Secondly, if a person pays £200 for a cable, there's a real incentive for his brain to perceive more of a difference than his ears are getting.

For what it's worth (very little to you), balanced made a positive difference to my headphone listening.
(I made my own balanced cable.
Under no circumstances would I spend £200 on any cable).

 

[Horowitz]

Thanks 'Hugh' - why should I not value your opinions? And yes, I do understand (and often agree) why people give those answers. I would love to leave my own ears to judge but sadly my retailer apparently has no balanced cable for me to try and nobody to cadge a loan from. I 'd only ever consider buying something like this if I was personally convinced or it was considered a 'no brainer' improvement by knowledgeable listeners who'd heard significant improvements using the same kit as I use (I did acknowledge that might be a longshot). Also I have no great desire to spend £200 on a cable, but lack your cabling skills to 'do it myself' (DIM) and need quite a long run from amp to listening chair (hence the possibly inflated cost estimate). Nonetheless I appreciate your taking the time to offer your help .

 

[Friesiansam]

For what it's worth (very little to you), balanced made a positive difference to my headphone listening.
(I made my own balanced cable.
Under no circumstances would I spend £200 on any cable).

I've never read a review of a headphone amp, with both balanced and unbalanced outputs, that did not conclude that the balanced sounded better. My Pathos head amp, has only the one unbalanced headphone socket. If I want to try the balanced option, from the rear outputs, I'm going to need to buy another amp. I'm happy with what I've got...

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I've never read a review of a headphone amp, with both balanced and unbalanced outputs, that did not conclude that the balanced sounded better.

Indeed, with good reason (as explained by Vincent above).

Buyers should always ensure that the 'balanced' connection is not just a convenience feature though.
A review of the Topping DX5 Lite points out that the 4-pin XLR socket is just that - to allow users with only XLR plugs to conveniently use them.
There may be others, but on that specific model at least, there will be no advantage in using a balanced cable (the headphones will effectively the getting the same as they would from the DX5 Lite's TRS jack socket).

Makes you wonder how many will know what they're not getting 🤔

 

[WayneKerr]

I actually got balanced and unbalanced cables bundled with my headphones but nothing to plug the balanced lead into, so I bought a Topping A90D headphone amp... balanced is better than unbalanced Also the unbalanced headphone sockets in my Marantz CDP and Amp are very good indeed and give the Topping a run for its money, unbalanced.

 

[Horowitz]

I actually got balanced and unbalanced cables bundled with my headphones but nothing to plug the balanced lead into, so I bought a Topping A90D headphone amp... balanced is better than unbalanced Also the unbalanced headphone sockets in my Marantz CDP and Amp are very good indeed and give the Topping a run for its money, unbalanced.

For a brief moment I thought you were going to say you were stuck with a balanced cable that you couldn't use - ahh. wishful thinking! When I bought my Focal Celestees, I was a bit miffed to find just one short unbalanced cable, to be honest - especially when they bundle in at least one of each (decent lengths, too) with the Clear MGs. However after extensive listening I actually preferred the Celestee (plus the fact that I already have some decent open-backed cans with my Senn 650s)!
But if anyone DOES have a redundant balanced Focal cable I'd obviously be interested in talking ...

 

[Friesiansam]

But if anyone DOES have a redundant balanced Focal cable I'd obviously be interested in talking ...

My redundant cable is the same unbalanced, too short and too stiff one as you already have...

One thing I will say is, that I'm damned if I can tell any difference in sound between the original cable and the Oidio Sound one, no matter how hard I try.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

But if anyone DOES have a redundant balanced Focal cable I'd obviously be interested in talking ...

Just looked at a picture of the supplied Celeste cable.
Tell me I'm wrong, but it looks like the headphone ends are 2 standard 3.5mm mono jack plugs (surely not).

If true, a balanced (more than adequate quality) cable should not cost the earth for somebody to make - especially if you require the 4-pole XLR option.

I know someone 😉 that could, at least, halve that £200 price for you.

 

[Friesiansam]

Just looked at a picture of the supplied Celeste cable.
Tell me I'm wrong, but it looks like the headphone ends are 2 standard 3.5mm mono jack plugs (surely not).

Highly likely the same as the Elegias they replaced, which means you’d be right.

 

[Horowitz]

Just looked at a picture of the supplied Celeste cable.
Tell me I'm wrong, but it looks like the headphone ends are 2 standard 3.5mm mono jack plugs (surely not).

If true, a balanced (more than adequate quality) cable should not cost the earth for somebody to make - especially if you require the 4-pole XLR option.

I know someone 😉 that could, at least, halve that £200 price for you.

Thanks HJ - will bear that in mind

 

[WayneKerr]

For a brief moment I thought you were going to say you were stuck with a balanced cable that you couldn't use - ahh. wishful thinking! When I bought my Focal Celestees, I was a bit miffed to find just one short unbalanced cable, to be honest - especially when they bundle in at least one of each (decent lengths, too) with the Clear MGs. However after extensive listening I actually preferred the Celestee (plus the fact that I already have some decent open-backed cans with my Senn 650s)!
But if anyone DOES have a redundant balanced Focal cable I'd obviously be interested in talking ...

Unlucky My cables were for a pair of HD800S and have a unique plug/socket at the headphone end. I also got a balanced cable made for my HD650's. The issue I had was for a quick revert to unbalanced without a cable swap... managed to solve it with an adaptor but the only place I could get one online was via AliExpress direct from China.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Thanks HJ - will bear that in mind

I've been investigating the cost of the parts needed to make up a balanced cable.
Using the highest quality Neutrik / Rean*, black bodied, gold plated jack / XLR connectors and Van Damme (black 4.85mm diameter) cable would cost £60....and that includes paying someone £30 to do a good soldering job (and heatshrinking cable together at appropriate points).

If you know someone that can solder, you can buy the parts to make a slightly less durable (but perfectly adequate) tester cable for £7.87 including delivery!
That would allow you to evaluate balanced operation, before buying better connectors (better durability, the sound will not improve).

*The outer barrel of the Rean 3.5mm jack plugs are 9mm . If you went for them you would need to measure your current plugs - to ensure your Focals would accommodate a 9mm outer barrel.

Out of interest, roughly whereabouts are you located?

 

[Friesiansam]

I've been investigating the cost of the parts needed to make up a balanced cable.
Using the highest quality Neutrik / Rean*, black bodied, gold plated jack / XLR connectors and Van Damme (black 4.85mm diameter) cable would cost £60....and that includes paying someone £30 to do a good soldering job (and heatshrinking cable together at appropriate points).

If you know someone that can solder, you can buy the parts to make a slightly less durable (but perfectly adequate) tester cable for £7.87 including delivery!
That would allow you to evaluate balanced operation, before buying better connectors (better durability, the sound will not improve).

*The outer barrel of the Rean 3.5mm jack plugs are 9mm . If you went for them you would need to measure your current plugs - to ensure your Focals would accommodate a 9mm outer barrel.

Out of interest, roughly whereabouts are you located?

My Oidio Sound cable has the Rean plugs and, Elegias and Celestee differ externally only in colour. Looking at pictures of Celestee I can see they are supplied with the same cable, as are other higher end Focals, apart from the Utopia.

 

[Horowitz]

I've been investigating the cost of the parts needed to make up a balanced cable.
Using the highest quality Neutrik / Rean*, black bodied, gold plated jack / XLR connectors and Van Damme (black 4.85mm diameter) cable would cost £60....and that includes paying someone £30 to do a good soldering job (and heatshrinking cable together at appropriate points).

If you know someone that can solder, you can buy the parts to make a slightly less durable (but perfectly adequate) tester cable for £7.87 including delivery!
That would allow you to evaluate balanced operation, before buying better connectors (better durability, the sound will not improve).

*The outer barrel of the Rean 3.5mm jack plugs are 9mm . If you went for them you would need to measure your current plugs - to ensure your Focals would accommodate a 9mm outer barrel.

Out of interest, roughly whereabouts are you located?

Just south of Nottingham. I'll get back to you about the above HJ - as soon as my aircon-fitting mates have finished preparing us for this summer's inevitable swelter spells! Finding the bedroom still showing 33C at 11pm on a couple of nights last year finally persuaded us to bite the comfort bullet !

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Just south of Nottingham. I'll get back to you about the above HJ - as soon as my aircon-fitting mates have finished preparing us for this summer's inevitable swelter spells! Finding the bedroom still showing 33C at 11pm on a couple of nights last year finally persuaded us to bite the comfort bullet !

...right now that summer seems quite a long time ago, but it certainly was way too hot for most of us.

 

[MargaretClark]

It's great to hear that you're enthusiastic about optimizing your headphone setup for the best possible experience! While I don't have access to specific user experiences with the Naim Uniti Atom HE and Focal Celestee combination using balanced cables, I can provide you with some general information that might help you make an informed decision.

Balanced audio connections are designed to reduce potential interference and noise that can affect the audio signal. They use three conductors: two for carrying the audio signal out of phase with each other, and one for the ground. This configuration helps cancel out any noise picked up along the cable.

Using a balanced cable can potentially offer benefits such as improved channel separation, lower distortion, and reduced noise levels. However, the extent to which you will perceive these improvements will depend on various factors, including the quality of the equipment, the recording itself, and your own hearing capabilities.

It's important to note that not all headphones benefit from a balanced connection, as their design and impedance play a significant role. Some headphones are more sensitive to these differences than others. Additionally, the quality of the cable itself can have an impact on the overall sound quality.

If you have the opportunity, it would be ideal to try out a balanced cable with your setup before making a purchase. That way, you can personally assess whether the differences in sound quality justify the investment for you.

Ultimately, the decision to invest in a balanced cable will depend on your personal preferences and priorities. If you are passionate about optimizing your audio setup and are confident in your ability to discern subtle differences, it might be worth exploring. However, if you are already satisfied with the sound quality you are getting from your current setup, the differences you may experience with a balanced cable might be relatively minor.

Remember, audio perception can be subjective, and what matters most is your own enjoyment of the music.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Balanced audio connections are designed to reduce potential interference and noise that can affect the audio signal. They use three conductors: two for carrying the audio signal out of phase with each other, and one for the ground.

Balanced headphones use four conductors Margaret - and balanced headphone cables are what this thread is concerned with.