Help with DAC & Amp issue

[Redsquirrel]

Hey all, I've been using a Scarlet 2i2 for years with my AKG K712Pro and whilst it's always been detailed they haven't ever wowed me. As a result I've decided to look at new headphones with a budget of up to £1k. Someone, however, suggested that using an audio interface, such as the Focusrite 2i2, isn't going to be getting the most out of them and I should try an amp. Well, just so happens I have an old Arcam Delta 290 which I understand was a bit of a beast back in the day and still seems to get positive comments even today.

So I use an RCA to 3.5mm cable, plug in the headphone output of my 2i2 (with volume 100%) into the Delta 290 input with the cable and then plug my headphones into the headphone jack. WOW - suddenly all the full-ness and dynamic range I always thought was missing was there all of a sudden. LOVE this amp.

However there is a bit of a problem.. first of all a small amount of static noise and secondly, any time I make an input or my PC does something I get lots of electric noise coming through the headphones. I can't game as when the GPU is working away it's like a constant whine. When I'm listening to just music it's fine (apart from the small amount of noise which is noticeably only at higher volumes) but if I'm browing the web, any time I press a key on my keyboard or move my mouse you can hear it through the headphones, bizarre. I tried connecting it directly into the 3.5mm jack on the PC and had a similar issue.

I tried instead to connect the headphone jack to my phone, but then I remembered Samsung want us to spend money on their wireless stuff so no longer provide 3.5mm jacks in their phones (I hate this about modern flagships..) so I used my iPad instead. Practically no noise - huzzah - it's not the amp breaking, however of course the quality isn't as good.

So.. my questions;
1. What is causing this, can I fix it?
2. Do I need to purchase a different audio interface/DAC that can output in RCA or something rather than using the headphones jack? Would balanced outputs make some sort of a difference?
3. Am I right in saying this Arcam Delta 290 (which was like £500 back in the early 2000s) is likely to be as good as modern headphone amps around the £150-200 mark? It's a heavy Amp with LOTS of power available (normal listening is like 15-20%) and I believe the headphone output works on the same output as the RCA so benefits from the full power.

Thanks in advance for any help!

 

[Gray]

Didn't fully understand what you've been doing (but it seemed somewhat unconventional).
Can only say this:
If you get a decent USB DAC / headphone amplifier, you will get a sound with no background noise.
I bought (and returned) some AKG K712.
They're OK, but no way do you need to spend £1000 to improve on them (unless you've got money to burn).

 

[Redsquirrel]

Sound is somewhat subjective, I love these cans although I'm eyeing up some Focal Clear MG's.

So, the sound originates from my computer via USB into my Scarlet 2i2 audio interface. Then from the headphone jack of the 2i2 into my Amp via a 3.5mm to RCA cable and then, of course, the headphone jack of my amp.

Do I need an interface/DAC that will output in RCA instead or just using the headphone jack and that cable? Would that fix the interferience/noise?

 

[Friesiansam]

New headphones of the class of Focal Clear MGs, will just expose more of the problem you have now. Would be much better to buy yourself an external DAC/headphone amp and connect via USB, as suggest by @Gray . With a better source feeding them, your AKGs will sound much better.

If you really want the Focals, you need to budget for a DAC/headphone amp good enough to reveal what they can do, otherwise you are wasting their potential.

 

[Gray]

Sound is somewhat subjective, I love these cans although I'm eyeing up some Focal Clear MG's.

So, the sound originates from my computer via USB into my Scarlet 2i2 audio interface. Then from the headphone jack of the 2i2 into my Amp via a 3.5mm to RCA cable and then, of course, the headphone jack of my amp.

Do I need an interface/DAC that will output in RCA instead or just using the headphone jack and that cable? Would that fix the interferience/noise?

Try connecting the line output of the Scarlet to the Arcam (using twin 6.35 mm jack to RCA lead) before doing anything else - and see what you find.

The headphone outputs of integrated amps vary in quality. You seem to like yours, but I reckon you might get a worthwile improvement with a good DAC / amp.
I use a £100 DAC into a Topping A50S myself, but there are plenty of options.

 

[ThisIsJimmy]

Hello

So.. my questions;
1. What is causing this, can I fix it?
2. Do I need to purchase a different audio interface/DAC that can output in RCA or something rather than using the headphones jack? Would balanced outputs make some sort of a difference?
3. Am I right in saying this Arcam Delta 290 (which was like £500 back in the early 2000s) is likely to be as good as modern headphone amps around the £150-200 mark? It's a heavy Amp with LOTS of power available (normal listening is like 15-20%) and I believe the headphone output works on the same output as the RCA so benefits from the full power.

1. The issue is down to the amplifier. Using the headphone output it doesn't have much output power to drive the headphones and suffers from distortion. Using the TRS outputs, Amir encountered more distortion.

See: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...rlett-2i2-audio-interface-gen-3-review.10187/

2. As Gray and Fresiansam have suggested above, purchasing a better DAC Amp will be beneficial to you. Especially if you want to run Focal MG. A few DAC Amp Combi suggestions below are:

- Topping DX3Pro+
- Ifi Zen Dac V2
- Topping EX5
- JDS Labs Element III

3. No. Technology has changed dramatically. THX ripped the rule book up for headphone amplifiers in 2018 when it partnered Massdrop to launch the THX789. Since then that has formed the modern benchmark that other manufacturers aspired to (and have now) beat.

In addition it might be worth you EQing your headphones to see if you can also improve the sound further. A lot can be said for a decent headphone EQ. It is worth noting that some headphones perform better than others. It might be worth you checking out Maiky's EQ of these headphones here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/akg-k712-pro-review-headphone.28244/page-5

 

[Redsquirrel]

Thanks all - really great insight.

I'm pretty sure it's a ground loop issue I'm having but interesting to hear that amps have actually changed a lot. Couple of additional questions if that's okay;

1. Could I use a Ifi Zen Dac V2 to then output to my current Arcam amp or is there no point, the ifi would just be subjectively better?

2. That was a really interesting read about EQing the K712's - how does one actually go about applying that EQ though, is it a separate program?

3. Would a Ifi Zen Dac V2 be generally considered an appropriately good level of DAC/Amp to power the likes of the Focal Clear MGs?

 

[Friesiansam]

3. Would a Ifi Zen Dac V2 be generally considered an appropriately good level of DAC/Amp to power the likes of the Focal Clear MGs?

Personally I would want a much better DAC/amp but, I know not everyone here will agree...

IMO, my Pathos Converto MK2 would likely be a good fit, I'm sure it would make a good job of powering better headphones than my Focal Elegias.

BTW, if wanted to try closed back, Elegias can be had for just £499.

 

[Redsquirrel]

Thanks, I love the open-back sound though. Also considering Sundara & Edition XS, LCD-X and a few others but best not to get into headphone recomendations for now.

Anyway, my questions altered based on new info:

1. Could I use a Ifi Zen Dac V2 to then output to my current Arcam amp or is there no point, the ifi would just be subjectively better?

2. I have some JBL LSR 305s (mk1) with the matching JBL LSR310s subwoofer; my acoustics kinda suck but would be best driving these off something like the ifi Dac V2 or is the Scarlet 2i2 perfectly fine for this as the speakrs have their own amp? Perhaps I could find a nice DAC/Amp and replace my 2i2 alltogether - I do need something that can take in my mic though with phantom power for gaming and recording audio.

3. That was a really interesting read about EQing the K712's - how does one actually go about applying that EQ though, is it a separate program?

 

[Friesiansam]

.

3. That was a really interesting read about EQing the K712's - how does one actually go about applying that EQ though, is it a separate program?

What program do you use to play music on your PC?

I use Foobar2000 and set EQ with it. Foobar is free and works well.

 

[ThisIsJimmy]

Thanks all - really great insight.

I'm pretty sure it's a ground loop issue I'm having but interesting to hear that amps have actually changed a lot. Couple of additional questions if that's okay;

1. Could I use a Ifi Zen Dac V2 to then output to my current Arcam amp or is there no point, the ifi would just be subjectively better?

2. That was a really interesting read about EQing the K712's - how does one actually go about applying that EQ though, is it a separate program?

3. Would a Ifi Zen Dac V2 be generally considered an appropriately good level of DAC/Amp to power the likes of the Focal Clear MGs?

Ten
1, I'm not sure which Arcam amp you have got. Just taking a guess here but if it's the rHead you will get better performance from the ifi. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...aune-x7s-and-arcam-rhead-headphone-amps.4270/

2. On windows machines I use equalizer APO (free). Unlike implementing it inside a media player level, Equalizer APO implements the EQ across all applications when it is turned on, which is great for use in games, movies, anything else where i'm using my headphones. From a MAC standpoint, the popular ones outside of media players are Boom 3D (which has a cost) and eqMAC. Not having a MAC i'm not very familiar with the process though.

3. Because I wasn't sure what budget you were going to consider for this, all the options I went for are more on the money friendly side. As the Zen Dac V2 is the only one i've not seen put through an analyzer that's the only one i'm not confident on. Focals range of headphones other than the Utopia have low impedience and high sensitivity requirements. Whilst a dedicated headphone amp might be more beneficial to headphones requiring some juice to power them, because low gain is required for Focals (if you are going down that road) seperates should not be required provided the low gain performance is stellar.

 

[Friesiansam]

Focals range of headphones other than the Utopia have low impedience and high sensitivity requirements. Whilst a dedicated headphone amp might be more beneficial to headphones requiring some juice to power them, because low gain is required for Focals (if you are going down that road) seperates should not be required provided the low gain performance is stellar.

I should add to this that, because I have to keep my music to myself, I only listen with headphones so, a dedicated headphone amp is the obvious way to go. My Pathos has a low output but will easily drive Elegias beyond anything tolerable and, I like prog and psychedelic rock loud.

Edit: I see from your sig, you don't lack experience of headphones...

 

[ThisIsJimmy]

I should add to this that, because I have to keep my music to myself, I only listen with headphones so, a dedicated headphone amp is the obvious way to go. My Pathos has a low output but will easily drive Elegias beyond anything tolerable and, I like prog and psychedelic rock loud.

Edit: I see from your sig, you don't lack experience of headphones...

Combi amps for impedences of between 30/50 - 200ish ohms have come along way over the last few years. A dedicated headphone amp would certainly be needed for impedences outside of this. From the Combi devices I have referenced above the EX5 has the best measured performance and is the most flexible.

I have seperates as I have a whole mix of headphones ranging from IEMS to my 600 ohm DT880s. Equally with your headphone collection seperates makes sense. If the OP is going to get a collection of headphones then i'd 100% be going the seperate DAC and AMP route. If not then the EX5 would suit him fine if he was only going to buy a set of Focal Clear MGs, and allow him scope to just use it as a DAC in the future if he decides to purchase headphones that need a dedicated AMP further down the line

 

[Redsquirrel]

Thanks, is it this thing? https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0987SG87T/ref=twister_B0987T2V79?_encoding=UTF8&th=1

I will probably swap between whichever new set of phones I buy and my AKG K712pro.

How good is bluetooth when it comes to these expensive headphones? I see Hifiman do a bluetooth model now and that dac/amp actually has BT built in?

 

[Tinman1952]

Thanks, is it this thing? https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0987SG87T/ref=twister_B0987T2V79?_encoding=UTF8&th=1

I will probably swap between whichever new set of phones I buy and my AKG K712pro.

How good is bluetooth when it comes to these expensive headphones? I see Hifiman do a bluetooth model now and that dac/amp actually has BT built in?

I second the suggestion of the Topping EX5...excellent product.
The iFi Zen DAC v2 is an excellent product too but with the Focal Clear headphones you should really be looking at the Zen Can Signature and Zen Dac Signature.
If you are thinking of bluetooth then you might as well just buy Sony .....

 

[ThisIsJimmy]

Thanks, is it this thing? https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0987SG87T/ref=twister_B0987T2V79?_encoding=UTF8&th=1

I will probably swap between whichever new set of phones I buy and my AKG K712pro.

How good is bluetooth when it comes to these expensive headphones? I see Hifiman do a bluetooth model now and that dac/amp actually has BT built in?

Yes. It may be possible to purchase cheaper either via Shenzenaudio directly or on Ebay. The Bluetooth on the EX5 is to recieve from a source and not to output to a set of headphones.

See here for more information: https://www.tpdz.net/productinfo/665570.html

 

[Redsquirrel]

Wow that EX5 looks amazing - looks like I could also then use it as a DAC for my JBL LSR310s & LSR305s?

Only thing is my mic so would still need to use my Scarlet 2i2 for the mic input I guess.

What's the XLR jack on the front for?

 

[Redsquirrel]

After reading reviews, I think this EX5 is going to be one one.

One question; could I use the RCA outputs to output it into my Arcam amp so essentially just use this as a DAC? The Arcam has an interesting sound so would be cool to be able to listen to both, especially further down the line if I pick up more headphones.

 

[Gray]

could I use the RCA outputs to output it into my Arcam amp so essentially just use this as a DAC?

Yes.
The front XLR socket is an output for 'balanced' headphones.

 

[Redsquirrel]

Thanks!

Reading up on them though I see people say they aren't that fun/entertaining a sound, is there any weight to that or is it just people used to £1k+ DAC/Amps being overly critical?

 

[Gray]

Thanks!

Reading up on them though I see people say they aren't that fun/entertaining a sound, is there any weight to that or is it just people used to £1k+ DAC/Amps being overly critical?

Such people often regard characterful / inaccurate sound as 'fun' or entertaining.
If the EX5 sound is anything like my Topping amp, then it will not be giving them the colouration they desire - but it will do what any amp should do - take and boost what it gets on its input, without adding or detracting any flavour.
If I wanted fun, I'd go to a circus and watch some clowns. When it comes to sound I want accuracy. To me, that's entertainment.
You just need to know what entertains you.

 

[Redsquirrel]

Hah fair, thanks.

So now just to decide the headphones... Ananda vs Sundara vs anything else under £700. Open to suggestions